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Backpacking Light

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You are here: Home / Skills & Techniques / Wilderness Travel Skills / Wet, Cold Feet When Backpacking: How To Keep Your Feet Dry(er) and Warm(er) in Inclement Weather

Wet, Cold Feet When Backpacking: How To Keep Your Feet Dry(er) and Warm(er) in Inclement Weather

by Ryan Jordan on September 29, 2017 New Features, Wilderness Travel Skills

Introduction

As winter approaches we face new and unique challenges with ultralight gear. In particular, cold and wet conditions reveals the limitations of ultralight footwear in acute ways. Flitting through the forest wearing 8 oz mesh sneakers and thin wool socks while carrying a light pack is one of the joys of ultralight backpacking. However, this joy can turn to discomfort as temperatures approach the freezing point and precipitation begins to fall. Avoiding wet, cold feet when backpacking requires skill in implementing a process, as well as carefully selecting gear. Both process and equipment are addressed in this article.

In a previous article I wrote about inclement conditions gear, I discussed a cold/wet weather footwear system that provides the basis for additional detail and rationale outlined in the article you’re now reading.

Crossing a high pass in a September blizzard, Montana.

You know the routine.

You’ve been hiking all day, perhaps fording streams, and your feet, shoes, and socks are wet. Stormy conditions unfold, with the prospect of cold temperatures and freezing rain or snow for the next few days, and you realize that the prospect of drying out gear anytime soon has vaporized.

Things go OK as long as your moving along the trail, but as soon as you get into camp, your body’s internal combustion engine starts idling. The first place you feel the uncomfortable cold: your feet.

You may find it very hard to recover from cold feet. It’s not uncommon for ultralight backpackers to experience cold feet during their entire time in camp, with no hope of warming up until after they’ve been on the trail for an hour or two the next day…

Sounds fun, doesn’t it?

I can assure you that it’s not.

Add snow to the mix, and low temperatures below freezing, and you not only have a recipe for cold feet, you get to enjoy some meaningful pain as well.

On our Wilderness Adventures Trek in Montana’s Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness a few weeks ago, we experienced the full gamut of nature’s emotions: warm and sunny at our starting trailhead, and then four days of sustained cold, rain, and snow. We crossed the mountain passes. By the time we crested the last one at 11,000 feet, we were trudging through two feet of snow. That night, the low temperatures dipped into the teens.

A mid-September storm brought snow to the Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness during a Backpacking Light Wilderness Adventures Trek in 2017.

These are extremely challenging conditions for ultralight footwear.

Here’s how I mitigate these challenges with a carefully selected footwear “system” for inclement, cold conditions:

1. Keep moisture out of the inside of your shoes by using a calf-high gaiter in combination with a mid-height waterproof-breathable shoe.

Waterproof shoe, or no?

Normally I’m not a fan of waterproof-breathable membranes in my shoes because they create a hot, humid environment while trekking in mild weather that leads to maceration and blisters. However, if I know my feet are going to be exposed to perpetually wet, cold conditions, a shoe with a waterproof-breathable membrane helps keep feet warm(er) and dry(er) than meshy shoes that leak at every pore.

Shoe cuff height: low, mid, or high?

For snowy weather, a “mid” height shoe (with a cuff rising to just below the ankle) helps keep a gaiter seal intact without compromising the mobility of the foot-and-ankle joint.

Shoes: what I use

I’ve mostly been wearing the Hoka One One Tor Tech Mid WP for most of my inclement-conditions treks for the past 12 months. It’s a solid shoe, and I value (primarily) its cushioning when carrying a heavy(ish) backpack. It lacks an aggressive outsole, and its durability isn’t great (I’ve worn holes in the toebox mesh as a result of some rowdy bushwhacking), so while it remains my favorite for on trail use, its stack height and trail sole limit its sidehilling comfort off-trail.

A more technical option that I like very much that seems to offer a good balance between cushioning for packed trails and a technical-enough sole for bushwhacking and snow is the Altra Lone Peak NeoShell Mid. I’ve had the chance to test them briefly and they seem to tick all the right boxes for an inclement conditions off-trail shoe.

My other recommendation is the Salomon X Ultra Mid 2 GTX, a shoe that I have many years of experience with. This is a more durable option than the other two, and in my experience, maintains the integrity of the waterproof membrane better over time due to a more durable sandwich protecting the membrane. Caveat: if you have wide feet, you may struggle fitting this shoe once you add heavy and/or waterproof socks in it.

I used the Hoka One One Tor Tech Mid WP on this trek across the Montana Beartooth Range last October, a trip that saw little sunshine and a lot of cold, wet weather. The morning after this shot was taken, we woke up to a foot of new snow at our camp.

Gaiters: high or low, ultralight fabrics or more durability?

One important part of this system is the gaiter. I prefer calf-height gaiters to ankle gaiters – especially when snow is in the forecast and I know I may be trudging through six or eight or twelve inches of the fluffy stuff here and there.

There are a few cottage companies that make ultralight calf-high gaiters, including Mountain Laurel Designs and ZPacks, but after having gone through several pair of them (they are delicate, and easily suffer tears if you are spending any amount of time off trail in the bush), I prefer something more durable. In addition, these ultralight gaiters are fine for a rainy trail, but they fail to create a good seal at the gaiter-foot interface that effectively keeps snow out of your shoe.

My recommendation for a light-enough, very durable, calf-height gaiter that mates well with ultralight shoes:

Gaiters: what I use

For trail use and non-snowy conditions, I like the ZPacks Challenger gaiters.

For everything else (which seems like most of the time for me), I opt for the more durable and better-sealing ORRMH’s.

Rethinking the stream crossing

During the summer or otherwise mild weather, I don’t think twice about getting my feet wet at a stream crossing. It’s faster, easier, and safer simply to wade through a stream rather than try to find (often slick) rocks or logs to walk across. And I know my shoes and socks will dry rapidly in warm temperatures, and I know my feet won’t get painfully cold at night if they are a bit wet.

But in the near-freezing temperatures associated with many spring and fall trips I take, this isn’t always a great strategy.

So the final recommendation I have for keeping moisture out of the inside of your shoes is to avoid submerging them in stream crossings.

Take the time to scout for a dry place to cross.

Of course, sometimes this isn’t possible, and you’re going to get wet feet. Shoes with a waterproof membrane won’t drain, so consider spending some time on the other side of the creek taking off your shoes to pour the water out, and ringing out your socks. It’s worth it!

Waterproof socks for shallow stream crossings?

Another option for shallow(ish) stream crossings that I’ve found works well is to integrate a waterproof sock (durable plastic bags work great, I like these: ) between your warm socks and shoes. More on waterproof socks later.

After a long day spent hiking in high winds, rain, and temperatures in the 30s, we finally made our way below treeline. Less than 100 yards from camp, we had a final stream crossing, with lots of rocks to hop. Not everyone made it across without getting wet!

2. Wear a highly insulative, crew height, merino wool/poly blend sock for additional insulation.

Thin, ultralight socks are fine for summer, but their limitations become painfully clear as soon as the temperature drops.

For cold, wet weather, consider upgrading to a mid- or even heavy-weight sock for more insulation. The primary disadvantage is that heavier socks dry more slowly. However, we’re not really counting on things to dry out, we’re instead trying to design a system that keeps you warm when it does get wet (and it will get wet).

Pure merino, pure synthetic, or a blend?

Pure merino sock fabrics are warm but hold a lot of water and dry slowly. Pure synthetic sock fabrics dry fast(er) and are more durable (socks are expensive) but are clammy. Strike a balance and look for a sock with a merino content of at least 65% for warmth, and a synthetic content (usually polyester) of at least 25% for some durability and faster dry time.

Ankle sock, or crew height?

Arteries that deliver warm blood to your feet run alongside both the inside and outside of your ankles. Keeping this region warm helps maintain warm feet in cold temperatures. I use a higher sock while hiking in cold weather than I do while hiking in the summer.

Trekking socks: what I use

I use a 66/34 (% merino / % synthetic) blend full-height, full-cushion sock in a heavier weight made by Darn Tough that provides a meaningful amount of warmth and loft even when soaking wet.

While I like the durablity of Darn Tough socks, I’ve also used a similarly spec’d model from Smartwool which seems to have a softer feel and better fit (less sagging when wet).

In spite of their differences, I’ve been happy with both and find them to be durable, warm, and comfortable.

3. When you arrive in camp, substitute your wet trail socks with a dry sock / waterproof sock combo to mitigate cold feet as temperatures drop.

I usually arrive in camp in the evening – an hour before dusk or right at dusk is a common arrival time. That means I’m getting to camp when I’m pretty tired, cold, wet, and right when temperatures are starting to plummet for the night.

My camp setup routine usually involves setting up my shelter and then finding a dry(ish) place to cook. By the time I settle down to make dinner, my feet start getting pretty cold.

So before I do that, I take an important precaution – I change my footwear system a bit.

Now, I’m not enthused about putting dry socks into wet shoes. That’s where a waterproof sock comes in handy. So, I take off my wet shoes, take off my wet socks, put on dry socks, put on waterproof socks, and then put my wet shoes back on.

This has a dramatic impact on my foot comfort for the rest of the evening, and I can’t recommend enough the need to incorporate this into your evening routine.

1–2 mil plastic bags (small garbage can liners are ideal) and seam-sealed silnylon stuff sacks are my favorite waterproof sock options. I’ve also used Gore-Tex socks with great success – just be sure to size them up so they can be pulled over your heavy wool socks – and don’t buy the kind that are “heavy” or “insulated” or have “fuzzy or wicking fabric linings” – they absorb too much water. Examples of socks to avoid are made by companies like SealSkinz, Showers Pass, and Stryde (it’s not that these types of socks are bad products, they just may not be the most appropriate for this context). Note that there’s some merit to neoprene socks, but they’re thick and heavy, and you may not be able to get your feet in your shoes with them on!

Waterproof socks: what I use

A calf-height waterproof sock allows for deeper stream crossings and additional warmth in camp. Learn more here and here.

My favorite waterproof socks are Rocky Gore-Tex Socks. Size up at least 2 sizes larger than your normal foot size so they layer easily. Rocky Socks are difficult to find, so you may have to search for them at more obscure retailers. I buy mine online here.

I’m also a big fan of so-called “launch socks”, which are used by kayakers to launch their boats in shallow water. Kokatat makes a pair (they are available at OutdoorPlay or direct from Kokatat via Amazon), and they are excellent. They are only a little a bit heavier than the shorter Rocky Socks, but because they are calf-height, provide a very warm microenvironment for your lower legs, and can be used for deeper stream crossings.

Heavier still, but warmer, and more difficult to dry out, would be a pair of seam-sealed neoprene “dry socks”. These ones are tall (18″) and would be a good choice if you were facing lots of stream crossings.

Waterproof socks while trekking?

In addition to in-camp use, waterproof socks offer some on-trail advantages as well. They can prevent soaking your hiking socks at shallow stream crossings, and they provide some much-needed warmth during the first hour or two of trekking on a cold, wet morning.

No, it’s not Scotland – that’s Montana – and l’me tell you, mate, thick warm socks are pure barry in conditions like this: 36 degrees and raining at 10,000 feet.

4. Before you get into your sleeping bag, swap out your camp sock combo with a thin wool liner and a pair of ultralight high loft insulated socks.

Shelter is pitched, dinner cooked, bear bag hung – now it’s bedtime.

Remove your wet shoes, damp waterproof socks, and (probably a little damp) “camp socks” and swap out for cozy, puffy warmth with some ultralight insulated booties.

Sleep socks: what I use

My pick for an ultralight bootie is made by a friend and former employee of mine who runs a little cottage company. Wearing a very thin merino liner inside of the bootie adds a lot of comfort (better next-to-skin feel) and some warmth as well.

Warm feet are one ingredient of a good night’s sleep. Even when everything else is working, cold feet can make for a miserable overnight, so consider a high-loft insulated bootie when the temperatures dip below freezing.

5. Stow wet footwear (shoes / socks/ gaiters) in a plastic bag and keep it close to your body so it doesn’t freeze at night.

You’re going to have some “wet stuff” (shoes, socks) and if the temperatures fall to much below freezing at night, you’re going to run the risk of having that wet stuff freeze. That’s going to make for a very uncomfortable routine in the morning when you try to put it all on, leading to cold feet and cold fingers as you try to manipulate frozen gear onto your warm feet.

The traditional “winter mountaineering” method for preventing this is to store wet gear (boots, socks, gaiters, etc.) in a plastic garbage bag and stow that inside your sleeping bag. This may be necessary for mid-winter conditions, when temperatures drop to the single digits or lower, but for fringe season backpacking, it’s probably not necessary. Temperatures may only drop to 15 or 20 degrees (F), and usually, it’s enough to keep your wet gear stowed “near you”. I stow mine in a plastic garbage bag or extra waterproof stow sack, and usually keep it right next to my sleeping bag and pad, where body heat has warmed that space to temperatures above freezing. Even on nights when I have frost in my shelter, sleeping in “close enough” proximity to my wet gear keeps it thawed well enough.

Final Thoughts: Shoe Sizing and Sock Rotation

Shoe Sizing – With thick socks and perhaps a waterproof sock layer, conventionally-sized shoes are not likely to be large enough to accomodate the extra bulk without compromising circulation in your feet. So be sure to size up your trail shoes to accomodate the added bulk. I usually size up one to one and a half full sizes (or more, depending on the brand).

Sock Rotation – Trail socks, camp socks, sleep socks? My goodness, how many pair of socks do I need?! I’ve accepted the idea that it’s OK to hike in wet socks. They’re going to get wet within minutes anyways, if the weather is pretty bad. So on a typical weekend outing, one pair of hiking socks is plenty. I’ll then keep one dry(ish) camp sock in reserve (also a hiking sock) and reserve completely dry merino sock liners for sleeping inside my down booties. For longer trips in sustained wet conditions, I may add an additional trail sock, but more likely, I’ll stick with one pair and wash them clean every few days.

Additional Resources

  • View our Guide’s Gear List – gear recommended by the Backpacking Light Wilderness Adventures Guides (includes footwear selections as well as other gear for inclement conditions trekking in mountainous regions)
  • Read my previous article about gear for inclement conditions trekking where I discuss a variety of gear systems, including (but not limited to!) footwear.
  • Additional perspectives about non-summer footwear systems include Dave C’s tips for shoulder season footwear, Will’s presentation of different footwear systems used by several different people, and my own past perspectives on footwear systems for spring snow travel.
  • Also, here’s a good forum search query that pulls up lots of threads about footwear systems for cold, wet conditions.
  • Finally, find this gear on sale: consider using our Gear Finder Search Engine to find gear on sale. Try using these queries: waterproof trail shoes, smartwool phd socks, darn tough socks, or outdoor research gaiters.

TL;DR – Summary of a footwear system for inclement conditions

Keep feet warm(er) and dry(er) in wet (rain and snow) and cold (temperatures near and below freezing) conditions with the following system:

  • Waterproof-breathable, mid-height, ultralight trail running shoe – sized up 1+ full size (this one if you value maximum cushioning, this one for a more technical sole, this one if you have narrower feet).
  • Waterproof-breathable, calf-height, durable gaiter (this one for durability, this lighter one for light on-trail use).
  • Heavier-weight merino blend socks (this one for durability, this one for better fit when wet).
  • Waterproof socks or two seam-sealed silnylon stuff sacks or two plastic garbage can bag liners.
  • Thin sleep socks and ultralight down booties.

Read the full article if you want to learn how to use this equipment system while on the trail, in camp, and in your shelter.

Disclosure: Some links in this article are links to affiliate merchant partners – if you click one of these links and complete a purchase, we receive a small commission, which helps support our website – thank you very much for this support, we greatly appreciate it!

altra, cold, Darn Tough, footwear, gaiters, Goosefeet Gear, hoka, inclement weather, Rocky, salomon, shoes, Smartwool, socks, trail running shoes, zpacks

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  • Sep 29, 2017 at 2:18 am #3493828
    Ryan Jordan
    Admin

    @ryan

    Locale: Central Rockies

    Companion forum thread to: Wet, Cold Feet When Backpacking: How To Keep Your Feet Dry(er) and Warm(er) in Inclement Weather

    Keep feet warm and dry by using a carefully designed system that involves different types of socks, shoes, and gaiters.

    Sep 29, 2017 at 2:55 am #3493838
    Tipi Walter
    BPL Member

    @tipiwalter

    You hit on all the important aspects and wisely mentioned “Rethinking the stream crossing”.  Or crossings.  I do all in my power on a winter trip to keep my gtx boots dry (and socks) as long as possible.

    Scenario:  Day 1 it’s winter and about 15F and I reach my first creek crossing of the trip.  Take off dry boots/socks and use my wading shoes to get across (no bare feet please).  Reboot on other side.  Had I just barged on thru in my boots, well, they’d be frozen solid that night at 0F and sucky for many further days.  My winter rule is this:  Keep my footwear as dry as possible for as long as possible.  Not relevant on summer trips, as you say.

    Day 4 I hit a foot of wet miserable snow and with good gaiters and a gtx boot my socks stay dry.

    Day 7 I hit a series of creek crossings.  Like 12 in a row with some snow on the ground.  My boots are still not saturated—socks dry.  This is where it gets tough because there are too many crossings in quick succession to off-boot and reboot constantly . . . . maybe.  And it’s very difficult to backpack 7 or 8 miles (with the crossings) in water shoes (crocs, etc)—because it’s dang cold on the feet (snow gets in the shoe).  Solution?  I just endure it but neoprene water socks might help.  A couple years ago I did Snowbird Creek with it’s couple dozen crossings and it was so cold I actually Debooted, crossed barefoot in crocs, rebooted—repeated forever.  But dangit I kept my boots and socks dry for when I wasn’t hiking in a creek valley.

    Day 12 I’m still backpacking and my boots are dry.  Unless I’m caught in a tough winter rainstorm at 35F.  Miserable.

    In camp I always have a pair of bone dry smartwool mountaineer socks—thick—for sleeping.  And a pair of down booties.  What’s amazing is having a $700 down winter bag and getting all cuddly warm and yet my feet are in the bottom of the bag frozen cold and take 2 full hours to really warm.  My circulation . . . is . . . problematic.

    Of course, everybody knows about flaring out the boot laces at night (morning bricks), repeated wringing out of wet socks (wrung out socks will soak up boot water —repeat as needed).

    One good thing about having saturated boots/hiking shoes in the winter is you can then cross creeks without compromising your footwear—it’s too late for that.

    And thanks for the Brand links—I’ll look them up.

    Sep 29, 2017 at 3:06 am #3493842
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    Good ideas, good article.

    Sometimes I can really tighten the laces at the top of WPB mid height boots and quickly cross a stream.  Water won’t get into the boots even if water level is above top of boots.  Depends on the boot.

    Or, like someone mentioned recently, take your socks off while crossing, then dump water out and put socks back on.  Time consuming for multiple crossings and your socks will get a little wet, but sometimes a useful technique.

    Sep 29, 2017 at 3:22 am #3493844
    Mark Verber
    BPL Member

    @verber

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    Over the years I have tried several approaches, including a system very much like Jordan’s but I have never been happy with the waterproof shoes. Maybe I am doing something wrong, but water always seems to get inside mine, and then they take forever to dry. So these days I use pretty much the same light weight / highly breathable shoes for all trips except those that are 100% frozen where I need stiffer sole for kicking steps / mounting crampons, and good insulation.

    Mild weather I use light weight merino toe socks. In inclement conditions I switch to a coolmax liner weight toe socks and the rocky waterproof socks. I typically have 2 or 3 liners for the trip. Each night I change into the cleanest/driest pair of liners I have (I continue to wear them the next day). I rinse the Rocky’s if they are particularly dirty and then shake them as dry as I can. I sleep with the Rocky’s and the day’s liners next to my torso. One of the nice things about using the Rocky oversocks is that they don’t absorb a lot of water and keep the inner socks clean.  So In the morning they are dry. Shoes are in a plastic bag under me to keep them from freezing. If I have to go out in the middle of the night the Rocky’s are worn. When it starts to get really cold the Rocky’s are replace with RBHdesigns VaprThrm insulated vapor barrier socks (still using the liner weight toe socks) and I bring some booties for in camp use.

    I typically don’t sleep in extra warm socks. I guess my circulation is pretty good. If my feet are particularly cold before bed I sit with my feet tucked against my thighs with my quilt wrapped around me until they are warmed up and then I lay down.

    My liners are crew high, the Rocky’s and RBH are a bit taller. I typically use light weight, mid thighs soft-shell gaiters unless I am expecting to be post-holing / lots of snow, in which case I switch to knee high waterproof gaiters.

    For water crossing I try to find crossings that keep the feet dry. If I can’t, I take off the socks and wear the shoes in the water, dry my feet and then put the liners / rocky’s back on.

     

    Sep 29, 2017 at 4:14 am #3493857
    Paul S.
    BPL Member

    @pschontz

    Locale: PNW

    I’d love to try Rocky socks but haven’t been willing to mess with the sizing. Anyone with large calves have any experience with the fit?

    Sep 29, 2017 at 1:42 pm #3493901
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    must have been Mark I heard that from, I’ve taken to doing that myself : )

    90% of my trips I can cross streams without the water ever going above the tops of mid height boots.  At the end of the day my socks are only a little damp.  I wear them to bed (in my down sleeping bag) and they’re dry in the morning.  Lightweight gaiters are required when walking through wet brush or my feet will get quite good.  Dirty Girls would be pretty good.

    About once a year my socks will get wet, so then I have to sleep in my second pair of socks, but then I get into the situation where it’s difficult to ever dry out wet socks and WPB boots.  Sometimes I’ll wear my sleeping socks the second day and they’ll get wet from the boots, but if I don’t do any more stream crossings they’ll only be a little wet at the end of the day so if I wear them over night they’ll dry off.

    Maybe one time I wore my wet socks in my sleeping bag, but that got the down wet and it lost it’s loft.  It wasn’t that cold though so I survived.

    Sep 29, 2017 at 1:58 pm #3493904
    Hanz B
    BPL Member

    @tundra-thrasher-ouch-man-2

    Just want to add a point about shoe inserts regarding their use either outside vs inside the rocky socks. I did an experiment in cool wet backpacking conditions with one side having the shoe insert inside the rocky sock and one outside. At the end of 8 hours the side with the shoe insert inside the rocky sock was much more macerated and had heat spots developing whereas the one with the insert outside the Rocky sock was pretty good as usual with the system. Since then I always have the insert outside the rocky sock. I wonder if anyone who has had more experience disagrees with this in concept?

    System used is similar: Shoe: altra lone peak 3.0, snow or not. sock: injini toe crew mixed merino. Gaiter: zpacks ul calf. Waterproof sock: rocky two sizes up. Extra protection: hiker goo generously applied morning and night. One always dry linner weight smart wool or a darn tough dress sock vs PhD smart wool in colder conditions. In camp I use his system and recs – it works well.

    Another point to mention regarding keeping feet warm at night is to keep your head and core warm. You brain will always sacrifice extremity flow to keep itself and vital organs in homeostatic operating temps – a good hoodie and maximizing core warmth will keep the Capillary beds in toes open to be filled with warm blood. I would love a debate from users on the weight of the hoodie vs the ul down camp sock with regards to actually foot warmth at night in this context  – though I realize it’s somewhat subjective.

    Great article, thank you!

     

     

     

    Sep 29, 2017 at 2:42 pm #3493907
    Ken Thompson
    BPL Member

    @here

    Locale: Right there

    Here is a link to the three part Will R article from 2007 for more,

    https://backpackinglight.com/lightweight_footwear_systems_for_snow_travel_part_1/

    Sep 29, 2017 at 3:29 pm #3493913
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    yeah, that was a good article, lots of good stuff in the archives that’s still applicable

    Sep 29, 2017 at 4:26 pm #3493920
    Brian M
    BPL Member

    @bmontgomery

    REALLY good article that I wish I had read and HEEDED before our Sept. 13 – 16 outing in the Beartooth Mnts. But there is no teacher like experience. Even with out this and only using garbage bags and DarnTough wool socks inside my Merrill Moab Ventilators I was fine in the snow storm at 10K+ ft. … as long as I was moving…  In camp my feet quickly became bricks of ice… The <style type=”text/css”><!–td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}–></style><span data-sheets-value=”{"1":2,"2":"Goose Feet Gear – DOWN SOCKS"}” data-sheets-formula=”=Hyperlink("https://goosefeetgear.com/products/down-socks/?__s=k64ongwqxds5ehyeed3n&quot;,"Goose Feet Gear – DOWN SOCKS")”>Goose Feet Gear – DOWN SOCKS</span> look inviting and I will be trying them out this winter in some of my treks in Central Oregon in preparation for my PCT Thru next year.  Thank you (again) for the adventure and the advice!

    Brian

    Sep 29, 2017 at 4:29 pm #3493921
    Adam G
    BPL Member

    @adamg

    I just haven’t had good luck with waterproof breathable shoes in snowy/wet conditions. I’ve found that they wet out after trudging through the snow or getting rained on for any extended period. Goretex socks don’t really add sufficient warmth for me to counteract that. In contrast, waterproof boots with a GoreTex membrane don’t really do that. Sure, your socks get wet from sweating, but there’s not cold snow or rain leaking in. Feet stay much warmer that way, and in my experience, quite a bit drier. Does anyone else have that experience?

    Sep 29, 2017 at 5:25 pm #3493934
    Tipi Walter
    BPL Member

    @tipiwalter

    Adam—Isn’t a goretex boot the same as a waterproof breathable boot?  You first say you haven’t had good luck with a WP/breathable shoe, and then say a gtx membrane keeps your feet warmer and dryer.  ????

    I was out on a 24 day backpacking trip in January 2014 (TN/NC mountains) and wrote this in my trip report—

    THE ADVANTAGES OF GORETEX BOOTS
    “Okay, let’s reason it out. 85% of all creek crossings in the Southeast mountains of TN, Georgia, NC and VA are easy fords between 1 to 6 inches deep and so whatever you are wearing will sink to that depth in order to do a ford or to rock hop. Try these little crossings in fabric boots or trail runners and POW you’ve just saturated your socks—not good on the first day of a 21 day winter trip. A good boot with a GTX liner is able to pull 6 inch deep wadings with no leaks, and of course you don’t stand in the water for 20 minutes. Fabric boots soak in water like a canvas tennis shoe and so the high need for an above ankle GTX boot.”

    The next year I upgraded my goretex winter boot to a full leather Zamberlan and it had all the waterproofness of a Sorel type pakboot without the hiking- impeding clunkiness.  It was cold so when I got to my first creek crossing I didn’t feel like taking off my pack, removing my boots and socks, putting on crocs, putting on the pack, crossing, dumping the pack, putting back on my boots and socks, putting on my pack—and moving on.  I just waded the low water and both the boots and the socks stayed dry.  It’s a good system if you don’t mind carrying the weight of a high ankle boot.

     

    Sep 29, 2017 at 5:35 pm #3493939
    Hanz B
    BPL Member

    @tundra-thrasher-ouch-man-2

    For waterproof breathable on a shoe, I think the only tech that’s got it right is “outdry” where there is no liner so no space for water to get trapped in between liner and leather etc. They dry out way faster and are a bit lighter.  It’s a different approach then a a gortex  liner. I can hose them clean or dunk them in the steam to clean them up as well. I think sorrel and Colombia are both using it some of there winter boots. It’s the only wpb I trust for more then two days. But I still prefer non-wpb mesh light hiker at altitude and snow.

    Sep 29, 2017 at 6:22 pm #3493950
    Adam G
    BPL Member

    @adamg

    Tipi: perhaps my terminology was not precise. You call the shoes “fabric boots,” which seem to be what this article recommends. I use boots very similar to yours: Asolo TPS 520. They are wonderful boots, keep my feet warm and dry, but they are heavy. I tried more lightweight shoes like advocated in this article and my feet–especially my toes–just ended up wet and cold. Maybe I need to try outdry.

    Sep 29, 2017 at 6:50 pm #3493957
    Tipi Walter
    BPL Member

    @tipiwalter

    Despite what I already said, I feel alot of winter backpackers can get away with very light trail runners and just live with the wetness—ford creeks w/o concern, hike thru wet snow—get soaked and keep moving.  This comment mostly applies to BPL hikers who don’t mind wet shoes and cold feet on occasion, “cold” being relative.  Fording a creek at 20F is a whole different subject than fording a creek at -10F.  When it’s that cold snow isn’t wet ergo boots stay much dryer except for the occasional creek crossing.  Hence this discussion.

    Sep 29, 2017 at 7:06 pm #3493961
    Ryan Jordan
    Admin

    @ryan

    Locale: Central Rockies

    My feet have almost always been warmer in a soft (fabric), waterproof trail running shoe rather than a stiff waterproof leather boot. I think part of the reason why is that in a soft shoe, especially when you are on the trail, your foot is allowed to completely flex, which improves circulation. Certainly there are softer boots, hybrid materials (fabric + leather), that allow for more flex and these should be warmer than a stiff boot. In camp, the full protection of a leather upper should provide more insulation than a fabric shoe…in theory?

    Also I received an email from a reader noting that he brings a few pieces of small newspaper to put in his boots at night to absorb water.

    I’m wondering if a small viscose towel would absorb enough water overnight to make it worth carrying? An interesting analysis would be to see how much water the inside of a shoe retains, add the towel, see how much water weight the towel was able to suck out of the shoe, and then decide if it’s worth the hassle/weight/extra items.

    Sep 29, 2017 at 7:45 pm #3493970
    Mike M
    BPL Member

    @mtwarden

    Locale: Montana

    Ryan- thanks for the article, lots of good tips and lots of food for thought. I use a very similar system for late hunting and into winter.  My only difference is using syn booties (Apex) vs down.

    I’d like to use a similar system in early Spring, ala the Bob Marshall Open, but at that time of year you’re sometimes making 50-ish fords a day (some up to your chest! :) ). This precludes the use of goretex or the like. Fortunately temps usually only drop into the 20-30’s. I use pretty open mesh shoes, but combine them with the same full height, thick wool socks you’re using. At night they are rung out as best as possible, feet aired and dried thoroughly, fresh dry socks donned- I’ll put heavy duty meat bags over the top if I need to don my wet shoes for any chores.

    I do carry neoprene socks in the event my feet get too cold on the move- knock on wood, haven’t had to use them yet.

     

    Sep 29, 2017 at 8:37 pm #3493980
    JCH
    BPL Member

    @pastyj-2-2

    The general consensus seems to be that the Rocky Gore-Tex socks are pretty much state of the art for WPB socks. It also seems that some people are hiking in them.  The idea of being able to hike 20+ mile wet soggy days for several days in a row wearing a very light wool liner > Rocky GT socks > mesh trail runners is very appealing, but is there a lot of high milage experience with this system?  I know a few people have mentioned it, but would love to hear from others for whom this system did or did not work, and why?

    Sep 30, 2017 at 4:40 pm #3494090
    Eric Blumensaadt
    BPL Member

    @danepacker

    Locale: Mojave Desert

    1.) 3mm NEOPRENE DIVERS SOX

    Once again I’ll say that when using uninsulated GTX hiking boots the best socks are 3 mm neoprene divers sox (I prefer US Divers brand, with L &R foot design and factory seam sealed).

    These sox, worn over light poly liner socks, are THE warmest way to go with uninsulated WPB hiking boots. No, your feet will not be dry, they will be sweaty BUT WARM!

    However these (seem sealed) divers sox will keep sweat from wetting the inside of your hiking boots, important for keeping feet warm.

    In camp sox ritual:  

    A. When going to bed I remove my divers sox and turn them inside out to dry. 15 minutes outside of my bag and the rest or the night inside my bag is sufficient .       B. Remove sweaty liner socks and put them in a Ziplock bag, tightly sealed! ;o) I bring one pair of poly liner sox for each day since they are so light. But you could bring 3 pair and rinse them and rotate them. For this fast-drying polypropylene socks are best.

    ->Don clean liner socks and heavy “sleep socks” and in the morning you’ll have warm, dry divers sox and can just remove your sleep socks and slip into the divers sox and your boots. Your boots are dry inside so there is no “frozen boot syndrome” in the morning.

    2.) GTX GAITERS

    I prefer knee high gaiters for snow conditions. Gaiters add about another 15 F. of warmth to boots. This judgement is from years of using them a Nordic (XC) ski patroller. Plus gaiters will keep out 100% of snow and 95% of any water that may go over your boot tops in a quick dip if you slip in a stream crossing. Never, ever go to bed with your divers sox on. You MUST dry your feet overnight or risk getting “trench foot”.

    So with these two items I can hunt and backpack with uninsulated hiking boots to 15 F. and still be warm day after day.

     

     

    Sep 30, 2017 at 5:03 pm #3494092
    Hanz B
    BPL Member

    @tundra-thrasher-ouch-man-2

    Eric thanks for sharing! Does your process   Transfer over to breathable mesh shoes? Or do you find the value of neo preen socks limited to gortex boots?

    I had good success with Rocky socks gators and toe socks at altitude in snow at lows of 17f with appropriate camp socks –  I brought the neoprene socks with me to Add camp warmth which I think they did. I had much less success with Gore-Tex boots , gators , and neopreen socks in wet cool Denali. Since then I’ve either left the neoprenes at home or placed a yeti insulated insert in them to use as a camp shoe (4.5oz of weight). So do you see a roll for neoprene socks in non wpb footwear in cold wet conditions?

    Sep 30, 2017 at 7:00 pm #3494108
    William Chilton
    BPL Member

    @williamc3

    Locale: Antakya

    I can’t answer for Eric, but the experience of me and my wife is that neoprene socks make a big difference for keeping your feet warm in snow with non-waterproof shoes.

    Oct 2, 2017 at 1:36 am #3494312
    Eric Blumensaadt
    BPL Member

    @danepacker

    Locale: Mojave Desert

    Hanz,

    My old Merrill Moab Mid GTX boots have begun to leak. I wore them for a mid-September mule deer hunt on the approach to eastern Nevada’s  Mt.Moriah. It rained for 7 hours the 2nd day and I was in my tent for the duration. But later that day and the foggy, rainy next day the boots got wet in stream crossings and the general dampness. Yeah, it snowed at the end of the rainy 2nd day! But I was at 8,125 ft. so it was not a total surprise. The next morning it was 25 F. but my overstuffed Western Mountaineering bag kept me warm and so did my neoprene sox as I made breakfast and broke camp.

    I was wearing my US Divers sox and poly liner socks. when I finally got back to my car that evening my feet were fine in sub freezing weather but of course my polypro liner socks were soaked.

    So the short answer is yes, I’ve worn the neoprene sox in leaky boots but not in totally non- GTX boots and they were fine. There are slightly thicker diver’s sox but you need larger boots to accomodate them.

    Oct 2, 2017 at 3:01 pm #3494372
    Sam Haraldson
    BPL Member

    @sharalds

    Locale: Gallatin Range

    Thoughtful article, Ryan with just the right balance of science and subjectivity.  Precisely what I’ve grown to love from BPL.

    Oct 3, 2017 at 5:40 pm #3494590
    I. Chhina
    BPL Member

    @ichhina

    Locale: Puget Sound, WA

    Ryan:

     

    How does the efficiency of that MSR WIndburner stove compare to an inverted canister stove system (like Caffin’s)? I haven’t had good results with upright canister stove use in Winter due to the gas feed issues in cold temps, while the inverted method giving a liquid fuel feed has worked great.

    Oct 3, 2017 at 9:31 pm #3494658
    Roger Caffin
    Moderator

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    How does the efficiency of that MSR WIndburner stove compare to an inverted canister stove system (like Caffin’s)?
    Not a simple comparison. How high the flame is turned up seriously influences the efficiency. That said, heat exchanger (HX) pots are always a bit more efficient than plain-bottom pots. But you have to balance the quite small fuel savings against the increased weight of the HX pot.

    Cheers

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