Open Letter: Don’t make the Gear Swap for members only

I've said my piece.

Last post here on BPL before I leave for a couple week trip.

Okay, we have hashed this out. We know the pros and cons. We know how paying members feel (pro & con) and we know how non-paying members feel (pro & con).

We have members in both camps who are valuable contributors to BPL.

Time to stop the bashing, which is turning into hateful diatribes. Time to stop posting in this thread. Whatever becomes of Gear Swap and BPL is out of our hands. It is up to Ryan. And he has enough feedback to make or change his decisions.

It is time to get back to gear, techniques, trip reports, and more importantly respect for each other. We are becoming a house divided, and THAT is not something Ryan can fix.

Happy Holidays to all, and hopefully Santa will bring you that something special you can share with the ENTIRE community on Dec 26th.

Peace on Earth, and Good Will to ALL on BPL!

– Nick

I go to work and there is 3 more pages of this stuff. I thought it was settled when I left. Lets talk gear, or maybe get out on the trail. I've got a slihgtly used compass and map to make more used….

See ya in the woods,

Dave

David,
I don't understand. Did you just stop in to tell people to stop discussing something you don't like?

R C,
I don't understand. Did you just stop in to tell people to continue discussing something you don't like?

>>R C,
>>I don't understand. Did you just stop in to tell people to continue discussing something you don't like?

Well that wasn't very mature.

Is a horrible thing to see after a for sale post. On behalf of all the international members I vote that those selling on this (an international site) should be made to educate themselves as to how easy it is to ship world wide. No worldwide shipping option, no add.

>Well that wasn't very mature.

Maybe, maybe not. But my point still holds true.

All I'm saying is that this is/can be viewed from both sides of the table. You want BPL to reverse their policy and convince others of the same, just as people who are OK with it want you to accept that this is BPL's decision to make and no one else's.

People complain of the "Member Elite," but those who fight and complain about BPL's policies, especially when they are non-paying, are actually the ones who exude much more of a sense of entitlement; that they are *entitled* to free articles or just as much information as MLIFEers, or a free Gear Swap. They BItch and complain about what they're not getting for free, which is actually very selfish.

If it were up to me, I'd have the moderators delete every post after Nick's last one. It would be a good and positive ending to this ridiculous circus.

>"Maybe, maybe not. But my point still holds true."

Travis,
What point? All you did was mock me with a silly playground retort.

>"All I'm saying is that this is/can be viewed from both sides of the table. You want BPL to reverse their policy and convince others of the same, just as people who are OK with it want you to accept that this is BPL's decision to make and no one else's."

Actually, a lot of people appreciate input from their userbase when they change their website. Believe it or not, but the purpose of an "open letter" isn't to start a fight with other users.

>"People complain of the "Member Elite," but those who fight and complain about BPL's policies, especially when they are non-paying, are actually the ones who exude much more of a sense of entitlement; that they are *entitled* to free articles or just as much information as MLIFEers, or a free Gear Swap. They BItch and complain about what they're not getting for free, which is actually very selfish."

Elitism is where a person or a group of people believe that they are better than the rest, and I think your post is a perfect example of it. Why is it that I can only choose between being a saintly Mlifer, who can do no wrong, and being an entitled leech, who never contributed a cent to the site?

It makes no sense, and also conveniently ignores the fact that I have, in the past, paid for a year subscription, bought hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise from the store when it was open (did I forget to mention that?), and contributed good posts and good threads that surely played a small part in keeping new users coming back to the website. By contrast, elitist posts like yours probably turn new users off of the site. I wouldn't be proud of myself if I called someone selfish for submitting their opinion on a public forum.

>"If it were up to me, I'd have the moderators delete every post after Nick's last one. It would be a good and positive ending to this ridiculous circus."

Eloquent as he is, Nick isn't the spokesman for everyone who uses this site. You're free to follow David's example and stop reading the thread, but if other people continue to post in it, don't blame them for it. That's a judgment call you are not in a position to make, no matter how much moral high ground you think your two years of BPL subscription has given you over me, which, looking at the numbers, it probably shouldn't give you any.

Oh and in case you think I'm making this up, I've attached a screenshot showing the "donations" an "entitled non-member" like me has "contributed" over the course of my membership. Please think about this next time you get ready to write off what somebody says just because they don't have an orange M by their name.

If you read my Original post,then you should be thanking me for my easy solution to your problem. Instead you go on and on for 3 more pages. I am a simple man and don't understand why you would prefer this thread to a thread about how to find a hike in a beautiful area or how to lighten your pack.

My offer still stands – 1 backpack per year.

Now go enjoy yourself and have fun young man.

Dave

David,
Duly noted.

(….just thought i'd slip that in to such a popular thread ; ) )

@RC

"Oh and in case you think I'm making this up, I've attached a screenshot showing the "donations" an "entitled non-member" like me has "contributed" over the course of my membership."

I've reviewed the list. You 'donated' $24.99 for a membership once in 2007. All the other purchases were for material goods, suitably bartered.

Just wanted to clarify that. Carry on.

Your post is full of conjecture, assumption, and hypocrisy.

>Believe it or not, but the purpose of an "open letter" isn't to start a fight with other users.

Correct. However, where did I say you started a fight? Although, you do seem to spend a lot of time railing against BPL and those who disagree with you, and you even began your crusade by bringing up the "elite" in the OP. You seem to be the only one fixated on the "elite."

>Elitism is where a person or a group of people believe that they are better than the rest, and I think your post is a perfect example of it. Why is it that I can only choose between being a saintly Mlifer, who can do no wrong, and being an entitled leech, who never contributed a cent to the site?

Please, please, please show me where I said I was better than anyone. And also show me where I said you had to choose between being an MLIFEer or an entitled leech. And also show me where I assumed you had never contributed a cent to this site. All I said is that you are complaining about not receiving a free service any more. You yourself even said:

"this is a free market. Somebody is asking money for one service and offering another service for free. If the prices don't work for them, then they are obliged to change their prices. And that's just what they did… …Since I'm not willing to pay the current price, I'm trying to haggle. And that's what it comes down to."

And that's what it comes down to. You don't want to pay the price offered up in a free market, so you complain and rail against some invented class of "elite." It's perfectly cool that you want Gear Swap to be free. So do I. In fact, I thought the open letter you started was good, but you took an unnecessary embattled stance soon into the thread and it didn't help your cause.

>By contrast, elitist posts like yours probably turn new users off of the site. I wouldn't be proud of myself if I called someone selfish for submitting their opinion on a public forum.

Again? Where did I say I was better than anyone? I implore you to show me. AHEM. By contrast, YOU'RE the one laying down a laundry list of reasons why you're a supposed "value" to BPL.

"I have, in the past, paid for a year subscription, bought hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise from the store when it was open (did I forget to mention that?), and contributed good posts and good threads that surely played a small part in keeping new users coming back to the website."

Not only that, but you used a chart to prove it. Whoa. Also, I didn't call anyone selfish because they submitted their opinion. I said that expecting something for free and profusely complaining about it was.

>no matter how much moral high ground you think your two years of BPL subscription has given you over me…

Yet again, where did I say anything about my moral high ground?

>Please think about this next time you get ready to write off what somebody says just because they don't have an orange M by their name.

Did I write you off? I was simply submitting my opinion in a public forum. Did I mention, or even allude to an Orange M? Yet again, nope.

Now, in the words of Ken, I've said my piece, and will not be entertaining this any further.

Peace.

Unrelated to this thread, but in regard to a much more polite interaction–directly to the mods– this response came to an esteemed member of the elite cadre:

"…the forum software is hosted and maintained by a different company. Unless we choose to pay through the nose to tweak anything (even minor things), we have to play by their rules.

We're hoping to change this in the coming year. "

Okay, read what you need to, but one can therefore infer. Personally, I see movement toward the Big Rock Candy Mountain.

Re David Ure:
Incorrect. I paid ~$315 for goods and services that all had their own overhead and profit margins. I'm confused why you think an online magazine it free to write and distribute, or how you propose an online store could do business without a profit margin. Please enlighten me.

Re Travis:
Being obtuse never got anybody anywhere. I'm sorry you seem to think you can get away with saying anything but not be held accountable for it. Similarly, quoting me out of context to prove a point you simultaneously deny saying is not endearing. I think all you've proven is that I was right to think that members would team up on me.

Some people think the membership is worth it, some don't, and there is a billion shades of grey in between. It's a stupid internet site. Who cares?!

Stop taking the internet, and yourself for that matter, so seriously! Or don't, its up to you….it just all seems….so…..dorky! :-). Don't be an internet dork, go out and hike!

> I paid ~$315 for goods and services that all had their own overhead and profit margins.

Sadly, it turned out that the profit margin on the shop was … well, the shop closed, didn't it?

Cheers

"Sadly, it turned out that the profit margin on the shop was … well, the shop closed, didn't it?"

Correlation is not always causation.

@RC – you referred to your purchases as 'contributions.' I don't see how.

It is sad to see that this thread has become a serious of personal attacks that will amount to nothing productive that will benefit the community or further the advancement of BPL.

The community is what makes BPL more than a website and a collection of knowledge and it is sad to see BPL members and guest turning on each other, when what brings us together is our common love of the outdoors and backpacking.

Yes, I would love to see more people sign up to become members and for BPL to grow financially and evolve the website to become better for us all.

However, seeing Chaff like this where guest are berated for not being members with personal attacks really does seem disappointing and sad to me.

We are all very passionate about backpacking and I am sure our views outside of backpacking are equally passionate, but perhaps we can be better and more civil with each other.

There will always be people who will never become a member of BPL and I think that is okay.

Rather than shaming people into becoming members, I would rather see a discussion on how BPL can change to entice guest to become members. Maybe the fault is ultimately with BPL in not giving a good reason for guest to sign up vs. blaming the guest as free loaders and leeches?

Anyway, for my part, I would like to say sorry to all the guest/non paying members visiting BPL….I think your input is valuable. Hearing criticism is better than having people blow smoke up your butt and praising you because that never results in improving or getting better.

Do I believe that there should be limits on content for guest/non members, yes. I have been in favor of that for a while, but it does not mean that I don't think that guest/non members don't have value.

Hopefully, going forward, we can be more civil and agree that we all love backpacking but disagree on the model of how BPL is run…and that is okay.

Many voices means Ryan has many more options to consider for the future of this place we enjoy.

-Tony

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Rog,

I am not on the staff, but I fully admit that I am a fan-boy for BPL.

What I have learned from BPL, Ryan Jordan's book, and from the generous community here has allowed me to take some amazing and life changing backpacking trips.

In my eyes, a profitable BPL means that this website can continue to evolve and help spread the UL wisdom to others and to make it a better place for us all. To that end, I do what I can to foster conversations to ask hard questions that might help Ryan and the BPL staff.

Maybe it is my way to give back to the community that has been so patient with me and answering my own questions as I have quested to perfect my backpacking kit.

Anyway, I hope this does not upset Ryan, but this was a posting that he made back in Oct to kick off a discussion about the future of BPL, which was in a section that was for MLife members.

There were a lot of ideas put forth and I am sure that Ryan took all of them into consideration.

One of the concerns voiced was that it would be nice to hear from from Ryan Jordan, the "voice" of BPL.

He did respond and said that he is giving a lot of thought to everything and would not be hastily making changes.

Two things that I would point out about Ryan Jordan…he has an engineering background and I believe that personality wise he is an INTJ from the Myer Brigs testing that was posted online a long time ago. To me, this means that as an introvert, I don't expect to see him posting all of the time on the forums (though, I think that from a business perspective that it would better serve BPL & himself if he were posting on the forums much more frequently). Secondly, I would think that Ryan is going to be "scientific" in his long term approach to making changes to BPL. Which means we have to be patient.

Key thing that I have been hearing is that replacing the forum software is high on the list and I believe is biggest focus for 2012. The BPL staff knows that the search function on the forum is inadequate and that there is a lot of room for improvement.

That is all that I can tell you from what I have heard and I don't have any special access to the staff….I just lurk on BPL alot. :)

Here is the posting from Ryan back in Oct.

Hello All,

I'm now in the process of kicking off an intentional effort in strategic planning.

This weekend you saw me wipe the home page slate clean. This was step 1 :D

One purpose for this change was to start the process of refocusing on what BPL is, now that the gear shop is gone.

Another purpose of that change was to strip away just about everything that nobody (or few) were clicking on, and making room for what is perhaps the most important function of the home page:

Telling new visitors what BPL is about, and why they should subscribe.

So, the first part of this strategic planning process will involve two steps:

1. Identifying, analyzing, and changing (as needed) the process by which a new visitor progresses from seeing the home page to subscribing; and

2. Identifying, analyzing, and changing (as needed) the core model by which members get benefit from subscribing.

Necessarily, this process will be iterative.

I'd like to open the conversation up in this thread to brainstorming ideas for either #1 or #2.

In order to keep this thread digestible, please refrain from long essays and be concise and clear in what you are communicating.

The best feedback, at this point, will be the suggestion of actionable items that can be performed quickly — that is, the lowest picking fruit we accomplish with little effort up front.

Once this initial phase is complete, then we can peel back the onion and dive into the deeper philosophy of what BPL can grow into, and work on more complex projects to make BPL irresistible to the masses.

Thank you very much for participating!
Best,
Ryan

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>>The fact is that persons who PAY to support this site so that it can be here and operate are basically subsidizing those that do not.

>>Of course they can feel more deserving for doing this, and non payers SHOULD feel less so, if they have a conscience.

>>There is nothing "free" about the forums,or the site. Someone pays to set them up, host them, police them, and maintain them. They are only free to YOU because others allow them to be.

>>The unbelievable thing, is that some have no absolutely no appreciation of this

if this is a true statement and most of the paying menmbers feel this way then why not just make bpl a members only site and eliminate the non members from the site
they can t use the most useful sub forums on the site (gear swap) anyway so why not just let the paying members take over the site and then they will have all the decision making power to do what they want to with the site then there is absolutly no more debate over whether or not to charge people for using the gear swap no ??
keep in mind this is only my humble opinion and since im a non member i guess i should feel (LESS SO??)FOR STATING IT

divr6347