Open Letter: Don’t make the Gear Swap for members only

Jake: I agree that identifying moderators would be helpful – that is a very common trait of other forums. I certainly behave a little differently on fourms I moderate. Not less friendly or less helpful or even less irreverent. But taking a more active role in nudging poster behavior towards the polite and the helpful and away from flaming each other. And on forums where moderators have been annointed carefully, they collectively come across as a steady, helpful influence because individually, they are. I haven't been here, but I haven't noticed that trend here. Certainly unidentified moderators make that harder to discern. And I don't know how careful the selection process has been. In other realms, I find about one poster in a hundred makes a good moderator. Maybe more would as well, but being that picky has worked well.

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RC,

Many paying members question the viability of membership income to fund the site. And many feel that everyone who has registered on BPL is a member.

I could care less about who can use Gear Swap. As a matter of fact I wish it would go away into another part of BPL. Seems that nearly 50% of the posts are GS. I would prefer that that forum would not show up in Recent Thread list. I really don't use GS. I have bought/sold 4 items in 3 years and 3 of those transactions were mostly to help someone out. Other people think GS is important and probably prefer it does show up in the Recent Thread list.

The one thing that those who would like GS to be open to all, is that no one has posted a compelling business case that would catch they eye of BPL management. It is all about how people "feel" about the policy. No one has presented a business case that shows how it would benefit the BPL owners with actual data of how to do it.

I have been a registered member of BPL for almost 3 years and lurked around for maybe a year prior to that. For two years I did not purchase a membership because it was not required and I did not see the value, although the cost was not a factor to me. At the time revenue stream appeared to be generated from the school, subscriptions, and the store. I have no interest in the school, the free articles I had read were not valuable to me, and the store sucked. I would have bought a membership to get a discount in the store, because there were some really great products. However they were never in stock. Either BPL did not know how to run an online store or the were under capitalized. Probably mostly the later. After I joined, I did read a lot of articles and to my surprise some were very good indeed.

Earlier this year BPL offered a life time membership. To me that meant they were strapped for cash, which meant they could be in a position to shut down. At that point I realized I really enjoyed the community, and it would be worth "gambling" the membership money. But I could lose that investment if they do not stay solvent. Now many people are concerned about the direction BPL is heading (e.g., is the strategy going to work). And a good part of the concern is that the ownership doesn't seem to be in touch or communicate well with the community (paying and non-paying). This does not mean they don't care about the views of the membership, they may be too busy making a living in other areas because I cannot see anyone making a decent living from the income generated here.

Now if the majority of bandwidth and storage is dedicated to GS, as an owner I would look at it very closely and see if I can generate income from it. Also I would be very surprised if BPL is making any money from the current advertising structure in the forums. One thing I have noticed is that more and more posts are coming from paying members. That means more people are joining (which makes the model look like it is working), or non-paying members are leaving. Only BPL knows what it is… or they should know. If they don't then they have a big problem.

You may be correct that a percentage of proceeds from each sale would be a better model. As a businessman, I would not consider the honor system. I would put in place a mechanism to make it happen, which costs money to do.

I do have a problem with those who primarily use BPL for GS ONLY, and now complain they can no longer use a free service that does not benefit the owners of BPL. Those on both sides of the GS transaction profit, and BPL gets nothing out of it… unless someone can present a business case showing otherwise. How one "feels" about it is not a business case.

Actually your post is good and the subject has been hashed over and over. They only thing missing in all this controversy is silence from Ryan Jordan. It is his website but it is funded by the community. It is customer driven, and the customer input seems to be falling on deaf ears. Lets us not be confused, BPL is a business not a community service. Any business that does not seek feedback from its customer base usually does not last over the long haul.

I used to buy my Golden Eagle Annual National Parks pass for $10 and use it 15-20 times a year, making my Yosemite, Sequoia, GCNP, Zion, etc, trips essentially free. Then it went to $20 and $50 and I think it is now $80. And that used to rub me the wrong way (a pyschologist I know wrote a book about that reaction, "Entitlement"). I'm fine with it now. Maybe I grew up.

Now I get pretty fed up with my north-woods neighbors who think all taxes are evil and the only proper government services are to fix the pothole in front of their own house, offer special-needs services to their bratty home-schooled kid, and send a firetruck when their not-to-code shack is on fire. I, on the other hand don't want to be in a 737 on approach at 140 knots over as much runway as I, myself, can afford. Or take my sick child to as much hospital as I myself could afford to build.

I explored this mentality in more depth when I was setting electric rates. People understand that when they turn on the light switch, they should pay for the kWh consumed. But they don't grasp that the ABILITY, THE OPTION to turn on all your lights at any time has huge costs. The poles and wires and generation is there all the time, built for peak load plus a safety margin, not just for your lowest usage times. Those "capacity" costs run 50-60%, sometimes more. Versus 40% for "energy" usage.

My analogy for those folks was: Hop in a cab at the airport. Go 5 miles downtown. And, since the cab used 1/4 gallon of gas for that trip and gas is $4/gallon, give the cabbie one dollar and he should be happy. Try it sometime. If you don't contribute to labor, capital costs, loan service, insurance, and some profit, you'll find there are no cabs around when you need one.

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I was a member, paid for a year and learned a lot, and then decided I had enough value from the site by treating it as free infotainment rather than anything I would pay to read, and didn't renew my subscription. I read trip reports and post trip reports, and reviews and other articles about gas canister science stuff, albeit amazing for some, are not for me. YMMV.
I feel I contribute more than I receive from BPL, but others may see it the opposite way, whatever… I don't measure it in dollars and cents, thats not a 'community' in my book- thats a fair exchange at a fair price, a business negotiation.
I've bought and sold stuff, and helped gear along the way in a generous 'giver' type way, because I'm lucky enough that I can afford it, and thought I'd 'pass it along'. I have also been on the receiving end of great advice and other's generosity- great system. Honours even in this respect in my opinion.
Paying to join so I can do this doesn't make any sense to me, and shrinks the market of potential buyers, so as a business model, it goes against the grain of common business sense, but I'm not a member, so whatever, there are other places to sell gear and I've used those with no problem too, without having to pay, and having to look at ads, which are related to hiking, and I've clicked on too.
I've never been clear about BPL's business plan or model, so before I'd even start to 'contribute' to a 'communitiy', I'd like to hear from the owner about what I'm going to get for my Euro.
BPL is in fact, a business run for profit by someone who is making a living off the 'community'. The 'community' can think what it likes about itself, but the idea of supporting a 'community' by donation, is really just giving someone money for what appears to be a gradual reduction in content, and in terms of the gear swap, a diminishing market of potential buyers. In fact, I don't even remember the last time I saw an arcticle or anything by the owner, whoever they are.
I've offered and suggested help and advice and vision in the past, and heard nothing back. I just come here to browse the forums now and even that less and less, and I think it is a pity things are heading the way they are, but hey, that is just symptomatic of the declining quality of reality in general.
2c in a constructive feedback way, not trying to pee on anybody's parade.
fred

"Perhaps Ryan should do some investigating and find out how HUGE sites like Mountain Project get funded with no paying memberships at all and very small Ads"

Maybe he has but does not care to share? It is starting to sound like the NetFlix debacle :)

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""Perhaps Ryan should do some investigating and find out how HUGE sites like Mountain Project get funded with no paying memberships at all and very small Ads""

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison at all. From the page you reference, there are no paid employees at Mountain Project. There are at BPL. I'm not sure there are even close to 100,000 members of BPL (though no one but a few knows for sure). Many of the places from which we buy gear are small, cottage shops that, frankly, don't seem to have the need to advertise here. Of course, some of that is because they use the free forums as a form of free advertising. Not saying that's good or bad, just stating a fact.

I agree with the sentiment that other options can and should be explored. Ryan does a bit of this in the members and MLIFE forums, but in a haphazard way. And he doesn't seem to see the value in frequent communication, only communication when he thinks it impacts defined user benefits. I disagree, but I'm not Ryan and it's not my site. At times he seems to use the 'spaghetti against the wall' method of changing things. I'm not sure that's the best way to do that either.

To be honest, I come here for the other members – to chat and discuss and inform and learn and have fun. I come here for the forums. I read few of the articles. Very few, in fact. Fred makes some great points a few posts above this. I am paying a business, not a community, so that I can interact with the community. I'm okay with that, it's a lot easier than creating my own site to allow this exchange.

Some folks like to say that all this info is available elsewhere for free, google, etc. etc. Not entirely true, but certainly mostly true. To me, and to others I have no doubt, that misses the point. I don't pay for the info, I pay for the forum in which I connect to specific individuals here. I haven't seen that available anywhere else. Certainly there are other communities elsewhere, yes. But I like this one. I like these people. I don't really mind someone making a few dollars off giving me the ability to connect with them. There are many things done/not done that I don't agree with at BPL. There have been 'promises' made and not kept, more than once. I've been as frustrated as others at times at the lack of communication. So I do get it.

I know that's not the same for everybody. Everything I've said above is NOT in disagreement with anything anyone else has said in this thread (other than I think the Mountain Project site is not a good comparison, FWIW ;-). We all have our own needs/wants/desires. This site feeds mine, frustratingly at times, but I completely understand that it might not feed yours. And that's okay.

"His silence in both of these threads shows that he could care less about what happens so I don't see any reason why ANYone should contribute to a business owner like that."

Jake,

I don't think that is fair.

I do think he cares a lot about this site. The site takes a lot of time to run and we do not know what other things in his life might have a priority right now. I have read a lot of his posts here, many articles, and a book by him. He seems like a good person, and there is no question about his knowledge and skill. I also find that when he does respond in normal threads about gear, technique, etc. he is focused, friendly, and generally contributes great insight.

"If you walked into a Mcdonalds franchise that was dirty, tables not cleaned up, people behind the counter were rude, manager sat in the office despite loud customer complaints. would you buy something from there?"

No. And I wouldn't come back there, either.

I don't see myself as the elite. I am a backpacker looking for the lightest most effective gear possible. What works for many people doesn't work for me. We discuss things on the forum. Elite? Hardly. No, I would say this is only common.

I see a lot of value to the site BESIDES the forums. I almost never use gear swap. Once in two years…and, I never sell anything, I prefer not to sell failed gear for any reason. Even after a single use and decide I really didn't like it. I *may* give it away. Good gear, I keep till it is broke. Those items are not suitable for re sale, either. Most gear in swap, I question why it is there…but, that is not what we are discussing.

I pay for a subscription. After carfully considering whether to re-up, I decided I could do it…after evaluating the potential loss/beneifit, the lifetime membership was too good to pass up. Elite? No. I am retired with a retired income. That means BROKE. But, it pays to think ahead, even against the possibility of BPL folding and closing it's doors. I pay for knowledge here. Just like I pay for school. I expect to be wrong here. Hell, I mixed up PCT and a Two Tree hang system the other day. Confusion is easy. It is easy to discuss a potential mistake, sometimes prevent one. It may be deadly to make a mistake out in the woods. I assume you pay for school, too…

In MY interest I support what BPL does. That means anything that sounds close to a good business decision. Elite? Well, I would not call it that, but I have been called worse. It IS a business run to make money. If they loose, so do I…in quality of writing, number of articals, and here in the forums, but worst of all, in the knowlede I can get from this site. The lost cash is secondary. I would say that is 100% self interest. As was said, there is value here. Nothing is "free".

I participate because, like any subject matter that has a lot of different ways to accomplish the same thing, maybe, I will have one good idea left in me…more than likely, I will just take other people's knowledge and use it. The rest is learning from all the wise people, members and nonmembers alike. I am not prejudiced where knowledge comes from. I always have things to learn…more than most, I venture to say.

All opinions count. But, I hope they do not change Gear Swap back. Over the past year there has been a significant portion of just plain old camp gear. Personally, I don't think plain old camp gear is the focus of BackpakingLITE. The past couple of weeks seems to indicate the members know the difference.

were comparing BPL to mcdickies?????

i personally wouldnt mind gear swap open to all members … but thats simply going way too far

BPL doesnt try to offer you toys with kids meals to make people buy more and get fat …

read the actual tests on WPB fabrics, stoves, sleeping pad, etc … the ones with MEASURED testing and comparison … not just some cheerleader who got free gear and goes rah rah rah …

and tell me its mcdickies

i rarely use the gear swap … so if i could get this information somewhere else for free … i would

I don't know how much I can, or should say, at this point since I'm not Ryan, but here goes…

I have alerted him to the discussion and expect a response at some point. With that said he's been down for going on two weeks with a bad case of the flu and just had a relative pass in the last few days so he's mostly out of touch.

The (primarily) volunteer staff are the only forum moderators. It's probably safe to assume that unless a staff member specifies something is their personal opinion that their statements represent BPL.

I'll leave it up to Ryan if he wants to detail to the community how he pays his bills, but I will say it's not from this website or any other BPL avenues. As far as I'm aware at this point any revenues go directly back in to supporting, maintaining, and developing the site and community. None of the staff do this full-time and none make a living from it. We all (including Ryan) work from our homes and most do so in addition to a regular full-time job.

If gear swap is limited to members, less gear will be swapped which reduces the value of a membership. BPL is making the same mistake Netflix made, they are charging more for less in an effort to generate more money. That is rarely a viable business model. Taking away services is not a good method of making your customers (BPL paying members) feel good about your product. I imagine BPL, like all businesses based on the magazine business model, is suffering but they need to stop thinking like a magazine if they want to compete in the modern internet economy. Charge 50 cents or a buck to start a post in gear swap (or free to BPL members) would be a much better way. Increase the amount of ad space.

You can disregard me because I am not a paying member, but by posting on these forums I am a content provider. Go to any forum thread and only read posts by BPL members and then you will understand the importance of non-paying members to this site.

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are all the moderators and staff labeled like yours with "BPL staff" ?

My impression is that Ryan Jordan always responds when a good number of people express their concerns and that he does so after most everyone has had the chance to express their opinions on the subject.

So here's my opinion. Maybe it'd be best if some of the people here who are so unhappy stopped using BPL. The posts would be more civil and would actually be focused on backpacking.

I for one like BPL as it is. I've used Gear Swap a couple times and I think it's great. I joined so that I could read the articles, which I think are well worth the price of membership. When it comes to the forums I like the Trip Reports the best.

are all the moderators and staff labeled like yours with "BPL staff" ?

I don't manage that piece of the giant puzzle so I can't say with 100% certainty, but yes, that should be correct.

Isn't more like a European cafe? You're not really there for the espresso, you could get that to go.

You're there to rent a table and chair in a convenient location. To chat with friends, to people watch as the world walks by, to meet new people, maybe get lucky. . .

And you pay for that with an overpriced drink or snack. And if you don't reorder every hour or so (more frequently at busy times), the waiter hovers and annoys you until you buy or leave.

(With a one-month old in Paris, we'd stop at a cafe every 3 hours to nurse him. We'd buy drinks but sometimes get the stink-eye for nursing in public. Bringing your dog on the other hand, is totally cool.)

One of beauties of BPL is I don't have to know what you guys are doing while you post.

With one very valuable exception (Addie, our Production Editor), all other 'Staff' are effectively volunteers who get just a few bucks for research articles, and that's all. OK, Ryan is also Staff, but I don't think he gets much more $ than the rest of us.

So how does BPL manage to pay for servers, bandwidth, SW maintenance, legal costs (they exist), and so on? Membership!

Sigh – penniless again.

Cheers

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i'd make them clicky but oh right.. you can't.

Since when? There are numerous threads detailing how to put links in a post.

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