Open Letter: Don’t make the Gear Swap for members only

[David Goodyear]

In life there are givers and there are takers.

I have been both, but as I get older I am leaning more toward the giver side.

Dave :)

[L Miller]

If I was a member who bought and sold on a regular basis, I would be p*ssed that gear swap was closed to non-members.

While non-members can respond to postings, limiting that board cuts out a huge percentage of the market and may actually devalue membership for members who are buyers and sellers. I sold stuff in the past, but with the current system, that gear would not be available for members to buy. And from a quick browse, the amount of gear currently for sale and wanted is substantially less than before the limitation. Paying to participate in a reduced market with less selection is not exactly a convincing reason to join, IMO.

[Robert C]

Sorry David, but I am not a "taker." I'm willing to support the site–just on more of a pay-per-use basis. I really don't use the forums as much as most of the people here.

[Diplomatic Mike]

If everone stopped paying, would there be a site to sell gear on?

Obviously, other forums that rely heavily on advertising don't rely on members donations. I like the fact that BPL is slightly quirky, and don't mind a few dollars a year to support it.

I find it quite telling, that the most noise is coming from folk that seem fixated on not being able to trade for free.

[Robert C]

Hi Mike,
I encourage you to read the first post to this thread again.

"If everone stopped paying"
This was never even implied.

"I find it quite telling, that the most noise is coming from folk that seem fixated on not being able to trade for free."
What folk? It's just me here, and I never said I just wanted to trade for free. Re-read that OP post. I think you missed a few things. ;)

[Diplomatic Mike]

I'm not just meaning you, RC. There has been a lot of complaining from folk who can't sell stuff on here anymore.
Personally, i don't care either way, as i'm here for the craic, not to buy and sell.

[Erik Basil]

I can tell you right now that the BBS software BPL runs on does not support pay-per-ad or even an actual "classifieds section", as they're known. Mechanically, the method available to the Admins in order to monetize the Buy/Sell is to limit posting to paid members. This is because the software does support posting privilege based on membership classifications in the BBS. (I realize that some folks are about to spaz out on the term "monetize", ha ha!)

A note on the "honor system" suggested. It's in place: you can pay an annual membership of just over two bucks a month, or not. I note that the OP is posting that he will not, because others aren't.

Well, there you go. That illustrates the efficacy of "the honor system".

Personally, I appreciate the free forums and hope the Admins chart a path that monetizes the site enough to support recapitalization into a software update. Taxing commerce is certainly a time-honored method. :)

[Robert C]

This is a question to everybody in the thread who so far has said "life is not free" in some form or another: do any of *you* actually know how much it costs to run a website? No, really! Let's get serious for a minute. You should be able to answer this easily, right? If you are such an expert on BPL's business model, as many of you hint at being, then let's hear some numbers.

[M B]

"RE: Martin

Please tell me you don't seriously believe that you're better than me because you subscribe to the BPL magazine."

You will note that I used the term "deserving" as in deserving of the services of the site. No where did I allude to contributing members being "better" in any way.

Yes, I do think that contributing members deserve a superior level of services IF it comes to that. That is not my preference, I would like to see everything remain open, but I can tolerate that as an outcome if that should be decided.

However, we have heard from a few persons who basically are complaining that the free services they have become accustomed to may be taken away. They repeatedly state they use and enjoy the site, but arent willing to contribute a token amount to insure its viability.

That attitude can be interpreted as selfish, which is really the opposite of what you find here from most users, both paying and non paying.

[BlackHatGuy]

"While non-members can respond to postings, limiting that board cuts out a huge percentage of the market and may actually devalue membership for members who are buyers and sellers."

This is the point that continues to get lost in this and other threads on this topic. I agree with this line wholeheartedly (except for the huge part, I don't think it cuts out even a significant percentage of the market, but rather a minimal one), it makes sense.

But the other side of that comment is this: There are obviously many folks here at BPL who don't attach that much importance to gear swap as a 'benefit' at all. So those who seem to place the most value of the site on the ability to buy and sell gear are, in my opinion, the very few, not the many. And, again in my opinion, they aren't the people who BPL is most concerned in attracting. That's simply a BPL business decision. One I personally agree with, but without malice or negative feelings for non members.

[BlackHatGuy]

R C: "As a source of revenue for BPL, this is the wrong move."

R C: "If you are such an expert on BPL's business model, as many of you hint at being, then let's hear some numbers."

C'mon R C, that's a question that goes to both sides, don't you think?

[David Goodyear]

Being a taker is not a bad thing, it is just a process to convert you to a giver.

The givers support your taking until you can support the next taker.

Dave

[Robert C]

>>A note on the "honor system" suggested. It's in place: you can pay an annual membership of just over two bucks a month, or not. I note that the OP is posting that he will not, because others aren't.

Hi Erik,
Nope. That's not the honor system. That's a magazine subscription. I subscribed to it once, myself. Despite how you seem to want to paint a picture of me, I am no leech.

>>I can tell you right now that the BBS software BPL runs on does not support pay-per-ad or even an actual "classifieds section", as they're known.

All you need is a Paypal account, or a check and a first class stamp, which everyone trying to sell gear has access to. Why are you trying to overly complicate things just to prove me wrong?

[Scott S]

In response to the earlier comment that BPL is an online magazine: I wouldn't subscribe to any magazine that produced 1 article per week. That's why I don't subscribe to BPL. There used to be 2-3 legit articles per week (not counting trip reports, etc.), and now there's one.

Maybe if there was more content I'd join. I don't really care about the gear swap forum–there are other places to sell gear.

[Robert C]

RE: Douglas,

Touche. But you can't start a debate with weak words like "I believe this is the wrong move." I would still like to hear just how much expertise and webmaster experience is or isn't floating around in this thread.

[Erik Basil]

RC, ease off on the self-loathing, at least in reference to my observations about your posting. I don't think you're a leach, buddy. You're probably a nice, well-meaning guy.

However, you are incorrect: the "magazine subscription" is on the "honor system" you describe — neither you nor I are forced to buy it to access the forums and …. we don't. We could, to support the website, but we choose not to for whatever reasons.

This is the same situation that applies with the Buy/Sell: you personally could support BPL to the tune of two-point-something bucks a month (on the honor system) to support or show appreciation for the Buy/Sell and/or just the site in general. But you, and I, do not. In fact, most visitors to this site do not. This is the performance of honor systems.

As to a PayPal, my understanding is that the site does have one. You can use it, and I suspect you have in the past if your claim to have been one of the elite is true. So, you know it's there and choose not to use it.

As to how BBS software works or the costs of running a large site as this one is, I suspect it's only "needlessly complicated" when you don't like the truth of the answers. Well, the world is round, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and BBS hosting isn't free or as simple as many here (not just you, nice person) think. There ARE people here who know the realities and there are plenty of recent postings all about it. Don't presume to equate reluctance to rehash recent threads to be a dismissal of your ignorance on the mechanics of things. It's merely a desire not to murder more innocent pixels.

The site owners/admins surely know who they can reach out to if they'd like to, just as surely as it pains them to even read pieces of threads full of ignorant advice and criticism from guys like Me and You.

Grammatical license taken to soften impact.

[Robert C]

I hate to be the one to say it, ignorant as I am, but this is a free market. Somebody is asking money for one service and offering another service for free. If the prices don't work for them, then they are obliged to change their prices. And that's just what they did.

Here's where I come in. I'm a potential customer, a past patron to be clear. I want to buy the service again–or rather a part of it–but it's inflated itself out of my price range. Since I'm not willing to pay the current price, I'm trying to haggle. And that's what it comes down to.

I'll be clear, I don't think of BPL as a charity. I think of it as a buisiness. Maybe this is where we differ. I remember a time when BPL had a (online) storefront, and sold goods in addition to subscriptions. Today I see there are advertisements on the forum. These were not always here. For my part, I'm glad that they are, though, because it marks recognition by the admin that a free forum can generate its own money to sustain itself.

[John S.]

I guess it's one of those moves to attempt to make others join. Probably will only be a negative though. I'd encourage a non-member to start their own gear swap site or just go sell the items on whiteblaze or other.

[Dave T]

I agree with much of what RC has to say. I think limiting the gear swap posting (thread creation) to members will just limit the flow of gear around. I doubt that it will drive many folks to becoming paying members. Limiting the flow of gear around seems like a bad thing to me; the gear swap is a great resource, and a nice model of folks playing nicely together (i..e asking fair rates, with accurate descriptions, shipping packages out even before payment arrives, etc.).

This just seems like yet another in a line (e.g. MLife, ads, etc.) of trying to monetize the site (which is BPL's prerogative and is fine) that seems to happen fully in a vacuum, with no clear strategy, plan, vision, or whatever (not fine), at least not one that is communicated.

I think folks are taking two approaches to this. Lots of folks joined, including as MLife, and are supporting from within. Other folks haven't joined (or rejoined, like me and many others) and are rabble-rousing (or not caring) from outside. I think there are lots of folks who would be happy to join/re-join but are wondering about where things are heading, and are getting no information or vision.

[David Goodyear]

If the OP sees no value in the articles and doesn't use the forums much and wants to sell one backpack per year, then I offer to buy that backpack and give it to a potential backpacker and hopefully spur a life long interest. I do this on a regular basis with my old gear and it has been very rewarding to me. This will take care of your need to sell with no fees.

Just pm me when you are ready,

Dave

[spelt with a t]

I think there are lots of folks who would be happy to join/re-join but are wondering about where things are heading, and are getting no information or vision.

[Richard Scruggs]

OP: "First, let me clarify because there's a kind of elitism in the forums that causes members to act as though they are superior to non-members just because of a little badge by their names."

I stopped reading right there.

[Jake D]

.

[David Ure]

"I do wonder why there is never any response by the administration."

Maybe because your requests can be generalized into mindless dribble.

The masses have spoken. You want to sell here? Play by the rules.

[James holden]

i think this thread belongs in chaff or somewhere else … as some non-members are on a bit of a rampage as to what types of threads should be here ;)

[Author]

Posts