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Sierra Snowpack 2015

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Viewing 25 posts - 76 through 100 (of 234 total)
Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedMar 27, 2015 at 7:20 am

"Maybe not. You'd have to do a lot of estimating to actually know…

Building and entire second water distribution system for gray water…"

That may be too expensive, but there are a lot of conservation efforts that would be cheaper, like ripping out lawns and other high water usages.

"Besides, conservation wouldn't allow us to grow almonds and sell them to China…"

A agree, good to export almonds. I bet they can use less water.

If water was more expensive, it would happen. Maybe taxes, in which case some other tax should be reduced to be revenue neutral.

PostedMar 27, 2015 at 8:12 am

Water Conservation: Good intentions; unintended consequences.

I say forget water conservation. We now have about 40 million people in CA.
If we cut our water usage in half per person, we will just end up with 80 million people in a few years. The lack of water helps control population growth.

One definition of pollution is that waste products are concentrated into too small of an area. If you institute water conservation measures you will just free-up more water for more development and more people which will create more pollution.

The ultimate solution to these problems… water conservation, pollution, scare resources, etc…. is population control

just sayin…

Billy

Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedMar 27, 2015 at 8:22 am

you must not be the person that had a hernia, father gave him lottery ticket as gift, won $7 million

you wouldn't be wasting your time posting here

or, maybe you wouldn't be wasting your time working so you'de post more here : )

[ Drew ] BPL Member
PostedMar 27, 2015 at 1:42 pm

@Billy

"39 million in CA x 50 gallons a day potential savings = 2 trillion gallons A DAY… hardly peanuts."

Not to be pedantic, but your 2T figure is off by a few orders of magnitude:

39,000,000 x 50 Gal/day = 1,950,000,000gal/day (~2billion)

2 billion gallons/day really is peanuts. 2 trillion gallons/day would be pretty substantial.

PostedMar 27, 2015 at 4:28 pm

It is my understanding that once an aquifer is depleted it will often collapse, rendering it incapable of being recharged, no matter how much rain falls in the future. Apparently that is what is behind the settling of the ground in many places in the Central Valley. Even when they don't collapse, if they are deep enough rain water will not percolate down to replenish them.

http://water.usgs.gov/ogw/pubs/fs00165/

According to the article in the link below, California is down to about a year's supply of water in its aquifers, so it would seem to be a pretty grim prognosis for the future if the drought continues, even if rain returns to normal at some point. I'd really appreciate your comments on this.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-famiglietti-drought-california-20150313-story.html

PostedMar 27, 2015 at 5:02 pm

Short and Long term the best idea is probably to move…Once the majority of the population realizes that this problem isn't going away and that there's no real solution for it, there will be a real rush to get out. I'd imagine it'll be very, very difficult to sell your home or move at that point.

Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedMar 27, 2015 at 5:42 pm

"Once the majority of the population realizes that this problem isn't going away and that there's no real solution for it, there will be a real rush to get out"

No, no, no,…

Plenty of people here in Oregon and Washington already

Plus, all the people in the middle and Northeast are going to leave cause it's too cold there

Let's get working on that pipe from the Columbia River : )

Bob Gross BPL Member
PostedMar 27, 2015 at 6:56 pm

"Let's get working on that pipe from the Columbia River : ) "

Please put the intake upstream from Hanford.

–B.G.–

PostedMar 27, 2015 at 7:06 pm

"Short and Long term the best idea is probably to move…"

Exactly what I did some 30 years ago, for precisely this reason. It took longer than I thought to come to a crisis, but I've never regretted my decision. Up here in the mossy PNW, even the sunshine is liquid. ;0))

Ian BPL Member
PostedMar 27, 2015 at 8:16 pm

(Well they're cycling out the Hanford groundwater that glows with fresh stuff and it's going to be another five years until the vit plant can process the contaminated stuff… hmm…)

Hey California! Got some water for you!

Ian BPL Member
PostedMar 27, 2015 at 8:20 pm

My barber's suggestion for you Californians is that you should become your own country and request foreign aid.

PostedMar 27, 2015 at 8:24 pm

"Short and Long term the best idea is probably to move…"

Problem for me is that my wife physically and emotionally thrives on sunshine and heat. It would no doubt end in a murder/suicide in less than a year if we moved up north.

Looks like I'll be stockpiling ammo and fabricating some metal masks for my posse.

1

PostedMar 28, 2015 at 4:27 pm

"Hey California! Got some water for you!"

Guaranteed to contain your RDA of strontium 90, iodine 131, cobalt 60, and cesium 137.

Ken Thompson BPL Member
PostedMar 28, 2015 at 5:09 pm

"Hey California! Got some water for you!"

You know someone in Sacramento is interested. They drink bottled themselves. But for the rest of us…

PostedMar 28, 2015 at 6:37 pm

"You know someone in Sacramento is interested. They drink bottled themselves. But for the rest of us…"

there is Aqua Pure from Hanford. A liter a day is guaranteed to turn you into a poster child of glowing gooooooood health.

PostedMar 29, 2015 at 2:52 pm

Since I'm still on-call this weekend and cannot enjoy the beautiful weather outdoors, I figured I would expand upon some of the pros and cons of desalinization since I constantly read comments (not on BPL) that Californians are idiots for not using this whole great big Pacific Ocean thing to the left of us to alleviate out water shortages.

(Maybe this post belongs on Chaff, but what the heck).

For reference, I'm using the plant being built in Carlsbad. Once operational in late 2015/early 2016, it will be the largest desal plant in the Western Hemisphere.

As I stated in my initial long post, desal is expensive (especially on a per acre foot basis) and energy intensive to operate. Initial plant cost is roughly 1 billion dollars. The plant will consume 38 MW of power a day, which is enough energy to power 28,500 houses. This will produce 48,000 acre feet a year (50 million gallons a day), enough to supply 7% of San Diego County's potable water needs.

Water will be sold to Carlsbad at $2,000 to $2,200 dollars per acre foot. Now, to put acre feet in perspective, picture an acre of land covered by a foot of water. That's an acre foot (326,700 gallons). It's roughly equivalent to what 2 American families of 5 use each year. Personally, I think that estimate is on the high side, especially compared to the average family of 5 in my water district. It's more like 4 families of 5 here.

Conservation costs ~$500 an acre foot. This includes replacing outdated fixtures, turf rebates, lawn replacement, switching to more efficient drip irrigation, etc.

Creating reservoirs to store recycled water costs ~$1,000 an acre foot to build.

Obviously the chief pro of desal is you have an abundant source of water to draw upon during drought years. Also, the construction process creates jobs, as does operating the plant. Estimates place the positive economic impact at 350 million dollars for the local economy. No small boost.

The 2 chief cons IMO is the power needed to operate the plant and the water cost, which will only increase in time (at least until solar power is a viable option).

Also, another con is the environmental impact. Desal intake pipes kill sea life, though I could find no definitive estimates. Then you must figure out how to dispose of the waste. Filtering sea water leaves behind very concentrated seawater (brine), the result of extracting the salt and trace amounts of water entering the filters. There are different proposals and methods already in use around the world. For the sake of keeping this post from becoming a novel, I will mention 2 methods I know are currently being utilized.
1) Diluting the brine at a 5:1 ratio with treated wastewater/agricultural waste/industrial waste, and dumping it back into the ocean.
2) Burying the outtake pipes under the seafloor, thus allowing the sand to act as a filter for the salt (expensive).

I'm trying not to inject too much of my own biases into the above paragraphs. I hope you find it interesting.

Cheers

Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedMar 29, 2015 at 3:47 pm

Interesting – conservation is way cheaper

Don't you also put water back into aquifier rather than build a reservoir?

PostedMar 29, 2015 at 4:24 pm

"Don't you also put water back into aquifier rather than build a reservoir?"

Not if you've already drained them and they collapse. Google "land subsidence".

PostedMar 29, 2015 at 4:56 pm

The cost of conservation saving water is interesting, but what percentage of acceptance do you actually get? I mean, if only 20% of the people adopt these measures, it's not a complete solution.

The cost of water from desalinization would also spur conservation.
Would need to factor that in…

Perhaps it's not an either or…

Personally, I wonder, what is the point of conservation if we're only going to be making room for more development, more people and more water use? Seems to me a complete solution would need to include population control and going after the wasted water of agriculture. Not sure I am willing to make great personal water sacrifices just so more people can move here… and if agriculture is wasting 10x more than we can save.

billy

Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedMar 29, 2015 at 5:06 pm

or, take the available water, which is reduced by drought

find conservation programs that will reduce the demand to match the supply

spread the cost of those conservation programs across the remaining users, proportional to their use

for example, if someone replaces their toilet, pay for it from this fund that is created by users. or pay for the landscaping costs to replace lawn…

they do the same with electricity

Richard Nisley BPL Member
PostedMar 29, 2015 at 5:29 pm

J Dos,

I did a Google search for "ca water use" and then looked at the images. The agriculture % was listed as 77% in the first graphic source. Every following image source provided a different %; what is the truth from your perspective.

PostedMar 29, 2015 at 5:41 pm

Yea, but not everyone wants to replace their lawn with sticker bushes…
or take showers under a nozzle that dribbles…
or use a low flow toilet that clogs more frequently…
etc
etc
etc

and as for "find conservation programs that will reduce the demand to match the supply"

you can not forecast mother nature…
most likely scenario is we will have several wet years now and most everyone will forget about all this… until the next time…

I've already seen this same thing play out in the mid 70's, the 90's and now again… it's cyclical… and each time we go to the trouble of saving water so the developers can bring more people in and the agriculture can continue wasting water.

Perhaps water protests would be in order: intentional large scale wasting for the purpose of civil disobedience until the politicos get motivated to really solve the problem of over development and ag waster…

billy

Roger Caffin BPL Member
PostedMar 29, 2015 at 11:36 pm

> Yea, but not everyone wants to replace their lawn with sticker bushes…
> or take showers under a nozzle that dribbles…
> or use a low flow toilet that clogs more frequently…
> etc

The solution is quite simple, and politically obvious.
Do Nothing.

Then, when there is practically no water left, there won't be any lawns, there may not be any showers, and any functioning toilets will have to be composting.

Why do I get the feeling that this what WILL happen?

Cheers

Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedMar 30, 2015 at 6:33 am

Maybe population should be capped at some level, say 39 million, then just close borders… : )

Viewing 25 posts - 76 through 100 (of 234 total)
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