Climate change, depression and having fun before it all goes south

[Kattt]

^^^^ got me Dan.

What I am not going to do is claim I suffer from collective guilt while enumerating all the ways in which I am better than you all, donating to Greenpeace and driving a Prius. Give me a break.

[Ken Thompson]

The style of the OP certainly has that Chaff flavor so excuse me for seeing it as such. But go ahead carry on. Look how long the Carbon Flame War has lasted. Longest running thread in BPL history.  Every topic has been discussed in Chaff, so excuse me once again.  I am sure the collective knowledge of BPL can solve this too.

[Tom K]

“I think this discussion should be front and center, not hidden away in Chaff.  And Ken and Kat, I believe it does far more to rile people up to tell them what conversations can and can’t be had here (as opposed to in Chaff) than simply letting people alone to have a conversation.  Anyone that clicks this thread will quickly understand the nature of the conversation and can choose to read on and participate accordingly or not.”

An emphatic PLUS 1 to your entire post, Craig!  It saved me the trouble of trying to say the same thing, albeit far less articulately.  If ever there was a subject that is of such universal import that it needs the widest possible audience, climate change is it, not to mention it is very relevant to backpacking.  CHAFF consists of a very small, dare I say ingrown, subset of BPLers, and moving this thread there would quash a discussion that very much needs to be had by a much larger section of the community.  Hopefully it will nudge at least a few to consider the impact of their gear fixation on both backpacking and, ultimately, the future of humanity.  As always, those who choose not to participate, or even follow the conversation, can simply ignore the thread.

[Kattt]

Then bring the Carbon Flame war back here because it is a much more useful thread than a generic whine.

[Kattt]

I have been reminded in private that since I posted about my marriage in the Trip report forum under the title “trip of a lifetime” I do not have a leg to stand on when calling this out.
Carry on here but do talk to a therapist instead of drinking, please.

[AK Granola]

The carbon flame war must have been before I joined. I probably won’t bother to look for it. I liked the TP one though. Someone or a few someone’s on that thread convinced me to go without, and I haven’t regretted it since. Perhaps a bit of verbal combat serves some purpose after all, to open our minds.

It seems to me the best therapy is still getting outside, and if a little wine helps, so be it! Nature and music seem to be the best balm for me, whether the outlook is dark or there might still be some sliver of hope.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Well, as the title of my post sez, ya gotta have FUN too and I’m doing it. I ain’t all “doom & gloom”.

But I’m also a member of the Sierra Club, Audibon Society and Friends of Nevada Wilderness. And I donate work time and money to these and other environmental organizations. We here on BPL should ALL be stewards of the environment that we enjoy so much.

Wallet Environmentalists

Yes, please donate to environmental organization/cause of your choice. BUT… do more than donate money. Donate time (that most precious commodity) and with that time help eradicate invasive flora, demonstrate publicly against environmental robbery and work to elect environmentalists to public office.

There is so much to be done and so little time before “The Tipping Point” is reached.

PEACE

 

[Ben C]

Nice to keep this out of Chaff for others to discuss, and it’s directly related to our common love in BPL.

To me, the problem is institutional as are the solutions. 5% of the population deciding to drive a Prius or do other “environmental” lifestyle changes won’t help. It’s going to take bigger,  broader action. Boomers should all be ashamed that they are leaving such a worse environment than they inherited.

Nice to hear Tipi talk about the Cohutta, Big Frog, Citico, and Slickrock.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

If you look at recent history, you can see that humans have had an negative impact on the environment.  However, when we pull together (globally) sometimes a solution can be found in a win-win scenario.  My example is the reduction in the ozone layer.  First detected in the 80’s and later determined to be cause by CFCs, globally most countries agreed to the Montreal Protocol in 1987 committing to the reduction in CFCs.  Recently, we have developed the technology to accurately measure the ozone layer and a recent report from the UN reported “Ozone in parts of the stratosphere has recovered at a rate of 1-3 percent since 2000 and, at projected rates, Northern Hemisphere and mid-latitude ozone is scheduled to heal completely by the 2030s, followed by the Southern Hemisphere in the 2050s and polar regions by 2060.”

As they say, the first step to any 12 step program is recognition.  With Climate Change, the tide is slowly turning as most people now agree that the climate is changing, some even admit that humans may be partially responsible.

I am in a different position than most as my wife is a Full Professor at UCLA and is a Marine Ecologist.  Her career has taken us from the coral reefs in Florida to The great Barrier Reef to St. Thomas and the Galapagos.  We have also traveled to Glacier Bay in Alaska , Jokulsarlon Glacier Lagoon in Iceland.  We also have close friend that work for NOAA and the EPA (before it was stripped down).  We have observed these changes over the last 35 years and climate change is very real to us.

As a forum issue, should it be discussed?  I do believe that it is an appropriate discussion for this group.  What can be done about it?  Yes, local support, charities, donations and changing in lifestyles matter.  What make a bigger impact though is the electoral process (in the United States).  When our elected officials see the population points to what is important, these politician tend to respond.   The hard part for most people is distinguishing between “what’s good for me right now” and “what’s good for the long term”.

One of the most interesting cases to watch is Juiliana v. US (see below)

The suit, Juliana v. US, also known as the children’s climate lawsuit, was first filed in 2015 and now includes 21 plaintiffs between the ages of 11 and 22, including Sophie Kivlehan, 20, the granddaughter of the famed climate scientist James Hansen. The case argues that the US government undertook policies that contributed to climate change, thereby causing irreparable harm to young people and denying them a safe climate. As relief, they want the government to pursue policies to keep warming in check.

The trial was supposed to begin at the United States District Court in Oregon on October 29. But earlier this month, the defendant, the US government, asked for a stay of the case, arguing the costs of litigation would put an undue burden on it. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts granted a temporary stay and halted discovery to allow the plaintiffs to respond. The district court then vacated the case pending a decision from the high court.

My 2 cents

[Tom K]

Precisely the kind of contribution the thread needs to be productive.  Thank you, Jon.

[Jerry Adams]

Yeah, well said

Ozone was an example where global cooperation solved a problem, we can do that with CO2

We have made progress.  10% of our electricity is now from alternate fuels.  Automobile MPG has increased something like 20% in the last 10 years.  If we prioritized this we could wean ourselves off fossil fuels without crippling the economy.

The current system where politicians depend on contributions from fossil fuel companies makes it difficult.  That’s a root problem.

[Ben C]

Good point, Jon.  The elimination of DDT is another visible example.  When I was a kid, we had no eagles, herons, turkeys, or other large birds.  DDT had eliminated them all in my area.  Once they eliminated DDT, they all came back.  Now, I could have decided not to use DDT myself, but it would have had no effect.  The national ban, though, has had a tremendous effect.

[Jerry Adams]

acid rain in lakes of Northeast U.S.?

[Christopher Gilmore]

I’ll leave this here for your reading pleasure.

https://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/environment/item/30214-nasa-sees-climate-cooling-trend-thanks-to-low-sun-activity

Personally, I do not feel “climate change” is human-driven as much as a slight contribution to the natural cycles of the earth. It’s not a popular view but the only one I have found that is well supported by true science. I would not call myself a climate denier but more of a climate realist.

[Jerry Adams]

This is like the carbon flame war thread

That story that NASA now believes the earth is cooling is purposely misinterpretting this study.  It has to do with solar flares and the far outer atmosphere of the earth.  Nothing to do with whether the earth is warming or cooling where we are.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/03/28/a-misinterpreted-claim-about-a-nasa-press-release-co2-solar-flares-and-the-thermosphere-is-making-the-rounds/

[Pedestrian]

More food for thought……or fuel for the fire….

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/26/opinion/skepticism-philosophy-climate-change.html

Knowledge, Ignorance and Climate Change

Philosophers have been talking about skepticism for a long time. Some of those insights can shed light on our public discourse regarding climate change.

[AK Granola]

Christopher, how you “feel” about the existence of climate change doesn’t matter one whit. What matters are facts, and there are plenty. All opinions are not equal, and feelings don’t help interpret scientific facts. Scientists really do have a strong consensus (updated November 18):

https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

“The New American” is not written by scientists, or anyone even pretending to be scientists; they are opinionated know-nothings. Who is “James Murphy” and what are his credentials? I completely agree that science needs skepticism, but perhaps best expressed by those with the knowledge and background to do so, rather than run-of-the-mill reporters writing for intentionally slanted, politically motivated “news” agencies, or by those of us in the peanut gallery, myself included. As said by one well known conservative recently, “we all are willing to argue with our doctors until our fever gets out of control.”

The major change in the last year or two in debate among climate scientists (at least from my own brief interactions with a few), is that the data coming in from the field far surpasses the worst-case-scenario modeled by climate scientists. It is progressing much faster than humans can effectively get their “stuff” together and do something useful.

If I get some time I’ll try to take photos of the dozens of new thermokarst holes along my road. When I moved here back in 1996, there was one. I’d send out a bottle of methane (I can smell it at multiple places along the road) but that might be rude. If my house tips over though, I’ll definitely post a photo! (not joking)

[DAN-Y]

I quote the Grinch, he really knows how to screw up a season that is suppose to be cheerful and full of gratitude :

Yeah gentle readers, I know the glaciers and antarctic ice shelves are melting. Nature is changing before our eyes, migration patterns change, flora changes, temperatures increase yearly and the whole thing is going to hell in an hand basket.

Asssrrrggghhh! Do you ever get depressed about this situation? Eh Bucky? Do ya feel like it’s “End Times” for Mom Earth? Is it SO depressing you just sit at home with a cool IPA looking at videos of past trips? Will your kids and grandkids have nothing in the natural world to admire and wonder at?

I was told a decade ago, “Cheer up, things could be worse.” ]

So I cheered up – and sure enough, things got worse. :o(

Cr@p!

I KNOW that I’ve had the privilege of living through the greatest period of the greatest country in the best time ecologically and left it in such lousy shape that I’m feeling deep guilt.

I drive a Prius v, backpack, recycle, donate to Audibon, Sierra Club, Earth Justice and others – he!! even Greenpeace (because I’m pi$$ed) and stillI I feel guilty. Was it my twin turbo RX 7? Or my many trips to Eutpope for vacations and all that jet pollution? Was it my profligate purchase of useless c@p?

Ohh the enui. Oh the regret. Oh the ignorance. Mea culpa! mea culpa!

Where’s my Xanax? My Prozac? My Valium? Oh well, IPA needs no prescription.

Happy Thanksgiving fellow Earthlings. You are forgiven your “climate sins”. You knew not what you did.

[Roger Caffin]

Happy Thanksgiving fellow Earthlings. You are forgiven your “climate sins”. You knew not what you did.

I don’t think that excuse holds water any more.

Cheers

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Kat,

If I gave the impression that I felt I was “better than you all” please forgive me. I was trying to show that my feeble attempts to “do my part” for the good of the environment were just that, feeble. No wonder I still feel guilty.

I knew I should have done more. And that is my New Year’s Resolution – to redouble my efforts on all fronts.

BTW, With the recent UN warning of a 12 year window to make effectual changes on CO2 output and the recent US National Climate Assessment announcement (on Black Friday, to bury it) perhaps my post is timely as well.

[Pedestrian]

I’d send out a bottle of methane (I can smell it at multiple places along the road)

From  Wikipedia – Methane

At room temperature and standard pressure, methane is a colorless, odorless gas.[11] The familiar smell of natural gas as used in homes is achieved by the addition of an odorant, usually blends containing tert-butylthiol, as a safety measure.

I wonder what you’re smelling….definitely not methane…..

 

[AK Granola]

Good point on the stink thing. We can easily light the methane (this was a fun father-child activity when the kids were younger, off to the lake to light it on fire) but what we smell is probably other stuff decomposing in the muck. Mammoth poo? Or other dead stuff or gases. I now smell it summer and winter, not just summer, since it’s not getting very cold any more. Fortunately not too near the house yet, but I pass by numerous melting areas on the way to work.

https://www.adn.com/arctic/2018/09/24/across-the-arctic-lakes-are-leaking-dangerous-greenhouse-gases/

Check out the YouTube video showing lighting methane bubbles, linked at the top of the article. At least the science is interesting, in addition to being depressing.

[Tom K]

“Fortunately not too near the house yet, but I pass by numerous melting areas on the way to work.”

Ground zero for the early stage of a feedback loop of permafrost anaerobic decomposition that will produce an ever increasing volume of methane, which is an even more potent, if shorter lived, heat trapping gas than CO2.  OTOH, it could make for fun 4th of July celebrations.  For a while.

[DAN-Y]

and how about all you smokers out there giving us secondhand smoke blech!!

 

 

[DAN-Y]

Karen,this could happen to you. Thanks Eric!

Lake Nyos Suffocated Over 1,746 People in a Single Night

http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_obscura/2013/07/26/lake_nyos_killed_1746_when_it_released_a_huge_pocket_of_co2.html

[Author]

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