Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques?

One thing that saddens me a little, with these new polyester substitutes for a nice old-style nylon windshirt, is that the polyesters build up a more powerful stink, and do it more quickly.

This is yet another disconnect with what multi-day 'packers need, and what the market provides.

That Marmot Incline Hoody does look nice. Seems like they did a good job with the hand pocket placement (unlike Outdoor Research with their Ferrosi Hoody and Mountain Hardwear with their Chocklite).

But it's no lightweight. And it also doesn't even pretend to have DWR.

>The thing this thread really highlights is the disconnect between the main thrust of outdoor product lines and what hikers really need. The retailing centers around winter jackets, heavy soft shells, waterproof hard shells (GoreTex, Neoshell, yadda yadda). The reality is that all of that stuff is way too hot to wear while actually hiking or cross country skiing or snow shoeing or trail running.

I feel like I disagree. There are a lot of great pieces for hikers and backpackers. But hikers and backpackers are not the only market – urban, resort ski, climbing, are likely very large money makers. It would be really great to see a demographic breakdown in sales.

As an ice climber, heavy soft shells and waterproof hard shells are really our bread and butter. Activity levels switch between working very hard and working very little and these pieces are very close to ideal. And we are often in contact with a lot of water, liquid, frozen or melting. Not every item a brand sells has to work for backpackers, but it is fortunate for a brand when an item conceived for one use translates well to another.

The Houdini, for instance, was a climbing jacket that got adopted by (and evolved for) trail running, and now the new climbing Houdini (the Alpine Houdini) more closely matches a climber's wishlist. It was fortunate for us as backpackers that it worked well for us, but now it has diverged.

> One thing that saddens me a little, with these new polyester substitutes for a nice old-style nylon windshirt, is that the polyesters build up a more powerful stink, and do it more quickly.

One thing to consider is that polyester absorbs very little water by weight. It dries very quickly. Nylon on the other hand, absorbs quite a lot of water by weight. If you face changing and challenging weather conditions, you might prefer polyester at expense of others' olfactory senses.

No DWR at all, although it will probably get a shot of NikWax the next time I run a load of Wash-in DWR. Not, that it will matter much. The stretchy grid fleece covering the back is never going to help much in the rain. Still, I've hiked the last two times with a Power Dry HE hoody (Capilene 4) as my top layer. It's been way too cold to worry about rain….

The Incline Hoody does pack up fairly small. It rolls to about the size of a 1 liter Nalgene bottle. That's been my biggest problem with soft shell jackets. They take up a ton of room in the pack.

I'm thinking that the Power Dry HE as an actual base layer with this over it will be a very nice cold weather (10 to 20 deg F) combination.

The OR Ferrosi full-zip jacket looks really nice, too.

del

The RAB Boreas is the hoody version of the Marmot Stretch Light. Same fabric (86% polyester, 14% spandex) with DWR. It's more of light soft shell fabric — like the really nice unlined softshell hiking pants. The Marmot Incline is a stretchier, less burly, nylon. More like a thermal running top. It's noticeably more breathable, so I'm not expecting it to block a howling wind.

I think RAB and Marmot must share many of the same factories. They often make products with identical fabrics. They do not, however, appear to share the same fashion design team… :)

>> This is yet another disconnect with what multi-day 'packers need, and what the market provides.

I don't know… I don't think that people really get that stinky walking down the street to Starbucks in their Patagucci…

I bet that extended trip backpackers make up an infinitessimally small percentage of the market for this stuff.

> Sounds kinda like the Rab Boreas, which DOES have DWR.

I thought the Boreas didn't have DWR, but it in fact does. I stand corrected.

As a subsequent poster pointed out, the DWR and other fabric characteristics (including air permeability is listed under the Fabrics tab of the product page on Rab's website).

Ha! I was out on the trail and got a whiff of something bad and was wondering what the heck that was until realizing it was me. Time to break out the Dr Bronners and have a little sponge bath and rinse out some base layers!

I think resort skiing and snowboarding drives the winter apparel market more than anything else. The jackets are often shown with insulated ski pants, which don't make much sense for most other activities.

I find it hard to believe that the ice climbing market is where the money is in the winter fashion biz.

del

And here might be the reason: I think it was David Chenault who posted a while ago that he needed to add a DWR to make it repel water. And I looked then in older workbooks and I noticed that the first version of the fabric had no DWR and now it has.

However, I noticed something interesting (to me): Rab claims for their Matrix SWS fabric an AP of 8-10 CFM (whether or no DWR had no effect), while here on BPL a value of almost 69 was measured. A big difference. Someome an idea why?

del

Recent running jackets review by OGL: link

Interesting to get a look at other options and a runner's view with high aerobic use.

No hoods! That's not a complete deal killer but it should be noted and there are many runner's shells with hoods. Seeing the photos with tops on the same model was very good. I do think that venting side panels are a good way to balance breathability with wind and water resistance: you can use a main fabric that is less than ideal and balance it with the panels. That does drive up cost and weight.

I didn't get the rationale on the comment on the Marmot Driclime:
"With its thick inner layer, the Marmot DriClime Windshirt was the best model for keeping the wind out. This piece holds in warmth well, while never letting the wind penetrate fully through the insulating fibers."

The Marmot does have a good outer shell, but there's no wind resistance in that microfleece lining. it lacks a hem drawstring or elastic too. Their posted weigh of 9 ounces sounds too light to me.

I've never seen an Arc’Teryx Incendo in person, but it has been at the top of my list of jackets I've been considering. TrailRunningReview rated the Arc’Teryx Incendo as having excellent breathability, and now OutdoorGearLab has rated it similarly. OutdoorGearLab found the DWR to be excellent, and it's available in a hoody version.

I saw one of these the other day at REI & did a breath test on it. Not very scientific but it didn't seem very breathable at all. Very hard to push breath out of it, almost like quantum. Otherwise a nice jacket, but the fabric is not particularly good for running IMO

That's what the venting side panels are all about. There is a whole class of shells that balance the breathability, wind and water repellency by using very breathable vent panels in more protected areas with less breathable fabric in the areas that meet the wind and wet straight on. The approach can work, but almost always means more weight, complexity and expense.

I noticed a few windshirts at my local REI store:

Salomon Terres – tags claim 5-10CFM, 2 different fabrics, 3 pockets.
Arcteryx Incendio Hoody – mesh side panels
Mammut Prussic – no hood, reminds me a lot of the

All three can pack into a pocket with an attached loop.
I'm usually between a size S and M but the aforementioned are small – I got size M and feel like L would be better if I need to layer a little bit.

I'll try comparing them to some of the other wind shells I have with me
Brooks LSD
MH ghost whisperer
Arcteryx Squamish (not sure which year, but 2012 or older)
Patagonia Houdini 2011 or older (I don't have it with me right now but I can remember a few things about it)
The ebay Knockoff
Rab Boreas (not strickly a windshell I know)

I only own the last 4, the others I got from REI to do some very light testing and basic measurements to find out more about them.

Incendo uses the same fabric as Squamish. As for me – Squamish is rather breathable, sufficient for fast hiking, or easy xc skiing for sure. I would like to compare it to old Houdini, but i don't have it. For running, air permeability of Squamish is not enough, i prefer Equilibrium, which on other side don't have such weather protection characteristics. So it is the question of application and needed balance.

I thought they used the same fabric too but after being surprised by the lack of breathabilty on the inscendo I checked the arc sit and it uses lumin while the squeamish uses gossamera.

Brett,

I tested the 2010-2011 V2 M90 taffeta version at .2 CFM / 949.04 and the rip-stop version at 4.7 CFM / 597.5 mm H2O.

Richard

I find it weird that there is such a difference between the two. The thing is I have used older Houdinis and have a wind jacket made out of the original Momentum and could notice a difference in breathability but it wasn't as much as the specs would have you to believe.

So would it be safe to say then that when breathability goes up waterproofness goes down? And the opposite of that also? Nothing out there with a 35CFM and 1500mm, correct? :)

I can understand you wold want a higher CFM if you were strenuous but if you were just walking along it would not mater too much, correct? Something down around 4 or 5 would be okay in that situation?

Brett,

With an occasional exception, you are correct.

I've been thru all of the 3-4 recent windshirt threads. Lots of great info, but my head is spinning.

Is there a consensus on Rab Cirrus?

I bought a Rab Cirrus (directly on assumptions made from these threads!) that arrived today. I can confirm it passes the breath-ability test written in one of the threads as being able to fill your lungs in 9 seconds, not minutes.

Does that settle it (for my particular model)?

If yes, I'll keep it, if no I'm sending it back without removing tags, to await a recommendation. I'm not trail running but I sweat easily and carry a rain jacket of some sort regardless, so very breathable or at least moderately breathable is what I'm after.

other threads for reference
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=87696&disable_pagination=1
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=77522&disable_pagination=1

Update:
I breath tested the following
Rab Cirrus: similar to 8 coffee filters
Pertex Quantum (from Thruhiker): sim to 8 coffee filters
M90T Thruhiker: slightly less than above

Unless I see a post stating it was tested at 2cfm I'm leaning towards the 1cc number being a typo and the 10cc being correct (too many threads/posts to trace down who said what numbers! and what they translate to).

It's a good product as a jacket, the fit is standard, I'm 5'11 195 and it is good in all places but a bit tight across my barrel chest. Still, loose enough for a base and a fleece or 8oz puffy, all 3 in a pinch (Yes, I tried). Mens Large weighs 4.8oz. Hood fits well, but no adjustment. All of the little trinkets, generous mesh pockets/vents, fleece zipper garage, mini-clip to stow hood, adjustable waist hem. I have a few pertex quantum products and I like its feel.