Richard,
I will always have doubt. It's my scientific background. Wouls I be worthy of my degree if I didn't have that. It's not angst; it's just a curious mind. :-)
Topic
Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques?
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Just came across this new jacket from OR. At least it is new to me. Seems like an interesting idea. Some other manufacturer must have done something like this before, no?
Nice idea, using Pertex Shield for the hood and shoulders. With a pack on, it leaves just the front panels and sleeves. Not too much of a weight hit either. Should be great for those drizzly days when you choose wet from sweat or rain. As spendy as the Westcomb Crest, of course. Durnit :)
I found a Nike Hurricane Vapor running jacket today. It's an interesting design: super breathable fabric like an old Houdini, with mesh lining in the hood shoulders, upper and lower arms— all the places you would feel the cold on your skin. Weight isn't bad at 6.5oz. It has drawstrings in the hood and hem, 2-way front zipper and a self-stowing pocket near the right kidney. My sample is used, so I can't vouch for the DWR. Sizing is small– I would go up at least one size.
Coincidentally, I got to see the SS14 range guide from Berghaus today and I took a look at their soft- and windshell fabrics. Maximum a CFM of 25.
I’ve put CFM measurements by Richard Nisley into one table for easier comparison.
THANK YOU ROMAN!!
When you get a chance, could you add the Rab Cirrus? I recollect it's around 2 CFM, see thread 77522.
Also, I believe the "new" Houdini material came in Fall 2012, hopefully I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.
Delmar, as i can see from the threat, he didn't test Cirrus, only assumed cfm based on manufacturer's data.
Thanx Roman (and Richard)…makes me think I will just stick with the Marmot Ether/Driclime that I almost always carry! I think I can live with that 11CFM "deficit" from the "ideal"…
Saved me from buying something else!
-Mark in St. Louis
If anyone is interested, REI has men’s (gray) and ladies (purple or green) Patagonia Nine Trails jackets on sale for half price ($49)
This is nylon ripstop (the old Houdini fabric) on the front, shoulders, and arms. With a very light stretch polyester/spandex fabric on the back, down the sides, and under the arms — both for stretch and breathability.
Stuffs into its own center rear pocket (the only pocket). Weighs 4.4 ounces. No hood.
Pretty awesome aerobic jacket for $49.
From what I saw, the current Nine Trails uses the same fabric as the current Houdini, but it does have the stretch venting back panel. It is a trimmer fit, especially in the sleeves. $49 is a good deal.
I have an older one that I like a lot, but it doesn't have much room for layering. Research and consider going up a size.
The new Houdini is listed as having a 10 denier fabric. The old Houdini was 15 denier fabric as is the current listing for the Nine Trails Jacket.
More breathable, less weather resistant ripstop plus very breathable stretch panels on the back, sides, and under arms. Should be good choice when conditions put more of premium on venting than on weather-resistance.
I think hybrid jackets make a lot of sense.
I looked at both at REI and they both appeared to have the same fabric and the same breathability using the Darth Vader test. I could be wrong, but I don't think so :)
I'll try to verify the next time by. Even the likes of Patagonia could commit a typo. If they are different fabrics, it really begs the question why they #$%^&* changed the Houdini!
I agree that the hybrid makes sense, and more so for a hiker than a runner, as the hiker will have a backpack on for the majority of the time it would be used and the extra ventilation would be welcome. When walking with a pack in 40F weather and wearing the Nine Trail, I didn't feel cold on the back at all.
I took advantage of the STP bargain on the OR Ferrosi and it arrived today. It's really breathable— to the point where I don't know if I would use in place of a more typical windshirt.
I like it though. I could see it in place of a Supplex nylon button down shirt. I could live in this thing! I'm trying it out tonight with a long sleeve base layer and it's quite comfortable. I ordered an XL and I'm glad I did. I'm on the big side of a large and this is a fairly trim fit at 24" across the armpits. For reference, an XL Houdini is 26" across and a large Nine Trails is 23". It is slightly wider in the lower arms than the Nine Trails and the width is carried to the elastic cuff. I think the stretch fabric adds to the feeling of a fuller cut too.
The pull-over has a 12" side zipper, which is great for getting it on and off, as well as more potential for ventilation, along with the 13" front zipper. No hem drawstring, partial elastic on the cuffs and the sleeve are long. Mesh armpit vents too. 10.2oz for the XL on my scale.
I believe they changed the Houdini to make it lighter, more wind resistant, and more rain resistant. The tigher weave of the 10 denier fabric would give them that. It's not illogical to consider those to be positive product attributes of a wind hoody!
The fabrics that breathe better, like the very light stretch softshell fabrics, don't even pretend to offer much wind protection.
Marmot has an interesting take on a breathable winter hoody. Their Incline hoody is light stretchy softshell with large panels of grid fleece on the back and under arms.
"I believe they changed the Houdini to make it lighter, more wind resistant, and more rain resistant. The tigher weave of the 10 denier fabric would give them that. It's not illogical to consider those to be positive product attributes of a wind hoody!"
But if I want those attributes, I have a rain shell. Likewise, I can buy a cheap windbreaker and get the same performance as the newer fabric. The "old" fabric is a bit of perfection in UL hiking clothing really.
The Marmot is interesting, but more of a technical mid layer. There are many hybrid fleecy mid-layer hoodies now. Lowe Alpine turned out some rather exotic "zone" gridded fleece tops a few years ago, giving it a "haircut" where more breathability and less warmth was required. They weren't bad.
"But if I want those attributes, I have a rain shell."
Do you have a Pata rain shell ?
Obviously I don't. Do you have links to their products?
Pata like in Patagonia :-)
Its early here. Every once in a while a while the Paramo clothing is mentioned here and I thought that was what you were referring to. Their stuff is hard to come by here.
I've used a couple Patagonia rain shells. I found them to be fairly typical 2.5 layer shells. I would like to try one of the new Alpine Houdinis. My current shell is an Outdoor Research Panorama with the torso vents which I like very much.
Perhaps their you have your answer ? Untill they came out with the Alpine Houdini, Patagonia didn't have anything superlight, and perhaps that was one of the reasons for the change of fabric for the Houdini. And perhaps now they have a reason to change it back.
> The pull-over has a 12" side zipper, which is great for getting it
> on and off, as well as more potential for ventilation, along with
> the 13" front zipper. No hem drawstring, partial elastic on the
> cuffs and the sleeve are long. Mesh armpit vents too. 10.2oz for
> the XL on my scale.
I did't realize that the Ferrosi shirt had such different features from the hoody version. The Ferrosi Hoody is constructed of two fabrics, instead of one. (The fabric in the shoulders and outer arms has more nylon and less spandex.)
There is a hem drawstring.
There's no venting under the arms.
And it's more around 14 ounces for a men's medium.
Other than the hand pocket placement being too low IMHO, and too much fabric in the stomach area, I really like it.
OR likes to use the Ferrosi tag a lot– must be family :) Yeah, the pullover is a shirt, plain and simple. I'm not unhappy– I could spend $30 on a tee shirt!
>> But if I want those attributes, I have a rain shell.
But, my sense is that the vast majority of the market for lightweight technical shells doesn't buy actual laminated waterproof jackets. Certainly not for running. Virtually all running jackets are DWR water-resistant shells. That's a "rain jacket" to somebody jogging to Starbucks for a latte.
Or, even for trail runners and typical hikers, looking for a single jacket that will handle everything from a little warmth to a little rain to some wind. The Houdini is not being primarily sold as a high aerobic top layer over a mid-layer. It's being sold as an ultra-light packable jacket that a runner would carry and throw on over a t-shirt if they get cold or if it starts to drizzle.
The thing this thread really highlights is the disconnect between the main thrust of outdoor product lines and what hikers really need. The retailing centers around winter jackets, heavy soft shells, waterproof hard shells (GoreTex, Neoshell, yadda yadda). The reality is that all of that stuff is way too hot to wear while actually hiking or cross country skiing or snow shoeing or trail running.
What really works is a closet full of LIGHT options in a continuum that puts something like a Houdini or an ultralight rain shell at the upper end (more weather resistant, less breathable).
That OR
It’s a very light 4.0 oz/yd stretch polyester/elastane fabric. Pullover with a chest pocket. Weighs 9.8 ounces (men’s MED). Not much in the way of weather protection, but a very breathable option for a little bit more warmth underway.
The Marmot Incline Hoody arrived today. $55 from Moosejaw.
It’s is awesome. Light super stretchy nylon-spandex fabric with a hood. The panels on the back and sides are a thinner version of a Capilene 4 Power Dry HE grid fleece. This thing is crazy breathable. I think it’s going to be the perfect complement over a Power Dry HE base layer for winter hiking. Not as tight as baselayer. It actually fits over a power stretch fleece, which surprised me. I was expecting it to be skin tight. It’s what a softshell hoodie should be and what almost all of the softshell jackets advertised by the retailers are not. 12 ounces (Men’s Medium)
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