Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques?

I got by REI today and got a look a some new wind shells.

The Westcomb Crest looks great— until I got to the price tag. It's on my bargain watch list

Speaking of bargains, the REI Fleet Packable Jacket looks interesting.

Mammut has some windshirts too and Salomon has a lot of garments that UL hikers should look at.

I wonder why we don't have fabics from silicone encapsulated fibers. Not like Epic – when silicone is applied to the fabric, practically closing all pores (reducing the number and the size of the pores) – which is why Epic has low air permeability. But if we will make fabric from fibers, previously encapsulated – we can regulate durability by changing denier of the fibers, and air permeability by changing threat count. And we will have life long DWR. As for Nanosphere DWR – judging by similar SDWR (and consultation with local manufacturer), in field conditions it will last approximately 3x times longer than regular DWR. And it will degrade soon enough due to abrasion. And then i think BD Alpine Start will be comparable to MHW Choclite (except better quality, full zip, etc) which has air permeability between Equilibrium and Squamish, and is much cheaper. Nevertheless i would like to test BD by myself.

> MHW Choclite (except better quality, full zip, etc) which has air
> permeability between Equilibrium and Squamish

Roman, did you get the ordering mixed up? In your previous post in this thread, you said
Quantum GL < Squamish < Equilibrium/MHW Chocklite

> Mammut has some windshirts too and Salomon has a lot
> of garments that UL hikers should look at.

I don't know about Mammut, but Salomon's Fast Wing Hoodie has poor breathability.

Hey Paul…Did you try the Fast Wing out? What year was it (looks to be 3 generations)??

…strangely, I was just about to post and ask if anyone had any experience with it.

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis

I saw the Salomon S-Lab Light jacket at REI that was interesting. It uses ClimaWIND Pro fabric that I found 5CFM specs on– nothing stellar. They have a ClimaWIND Stretch family of fabrics that go out to 40CFM. Nothing Houdini like.

Paul, thanks you noticed. I have specially checked again, since last post, just to be sure. The correct order is DryQ Elite (=Event Pro) < Quantum GL < Squamish < Chocklite < Equilibrium. And i think Pertex Microlight is between Quantum and Squamish, but i have to test. It is rather hard to give accurate numerical ratings for air permeability. Now i want to make some kind of air permeability tester.

I came up with the idea to adapt an incentive inspirometer, which is used for respiratory therapy by hooking up to a vacuum cleaner to make a poor man's fabric air flow tester. Its on a long list of round-to-it projects.

See http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/83997/index.html?skip_to_post=716473#716473

Roman,

The EPIC process encapsulates the fibers within a woven fabric with an ultra thin polymer film and it precisely places a durable, breathable barrier within the fabric, between fiber bundles. The technology makes it possible to engineer fabrics with an array of different properties. I have tested commercial Epic fabrics with air permeability ranging from .25 CFM to 35.4 CFM and the corresponding HH readings ranging from 1266 mm H2O to 70.31 mm H2O.

Big thanks, Richard, didn't know that. Are these higher air permeable Epic fabrics available somewhere?
Richard, can you tell us, what measuring instrument do you use?

Dale, thanks for the link.

Roman,

Yes, the most recent high air permeability EPIC windshirt I tested was a 70 denier nylon, size XL @ 8.7 oz.; it tested 29.8 CFM. It is the Metacam color Windshirt WT 1.0 ($109) sold by Wild Things LLC. The Coyote color tests much differently. My micrographs also indicated that the Patagonia Houdini uses EPIC process fabric. Up until the 2013 model year, it tested approximately 35.4 CFM.

As I have explained in another recent post, once you go beyond ~35 CFM for a windshirt, in a windshirt/base layer ensemble, there is no increase in the amount of moisture vapor that can be transported out of the ensemble.

My lab equipment's manufactures and model numbers are proprietary information but, it is similar to the commercial equipment that Gore-Tex scientists used for their air permeable Gore-Tex patent measurements. It is not a DIY tester.

I was interested in the Salomon Fast Wing Hoodie because it was on sale online for very, very cheap. I have no firsthand knowledge of it but I found a review of it at TrailRunningReview.com
http://www.trailrunningreview.com/es/Salomon_Fast_Wing_2_Hoodie/REVIEW–147.html

I don't understand Spanish, but I'm pretty sure the Tranpirabilidad rating is the breathability rating, and it did not do well. The use of ClimaWIND Pro also led me to suspect that it wouldn't breathe well. So I decided to pass up the deal.

The Wild Things Windshirt – WT 1.0 that Richard mentioned is under the military section of Wild Thing's website.

http://www.wildthingsgear.com/products/military-windshirt-wt-1

Tech Specs
70 denier textured nylon shell encapsulated with silicone in a proprietary process that provides durable water resistance, abrasion resistance, and breathability
½ zip pullover
One angled chest pocket
Concealed zippers
Adjustable shock cord hem
Stow-away hood
Elastic wrist closures
Dropped tail
Weight: 10 oz
Made in U.S.A.

Hmm, i thought EPIC in Windshirt WT is much lesser air permeable, interesting. Richard, is there a place were we can find all of your CFM measurement results?

Paul,

It is speced at <5 CFM.

Vancouver?you mean,Hong-Kouver :)

Interesting Richard. Do you happen to know what is the CFM-rating from WT themself ?

Tom,

I have never seen that information published nor have I asked for it from WT. If they give you any CFM or HH information, please share it with me.

Roman,

Like Patagonia, WT changes the fabric used for some model years. Sometimes the product name changes and sometimes it doesn't.

Richard,
it's just that your measurements are high compared with specs. from brands.
I guess that would mean that or they use different parameters or their specs. are indeed very low but consumers are unaware of this and/or don't know what cfm is.
Alone, their is not directly a way to compare because afaik the garments you measure are not the same as garments where brands to give an AP-number. Or have I missed something ?

Tom,

Please list all the spec values that vary from my higher test results. If the differences are major, please independently test the values that differ and post your results. This should allow to reconcile any problems.

Richard,
that's just it. Your measurements show values of e.g. 35 or 67 or even 100.
I never see those high values with brands. If those are listed, they show values in cfm, but also in cc or liters and in cfm it's always 2, 5, 7 or 10 cfm. Always on fabrics/clothing you haven't had the chance to measure.

Tom,

Backpacking is listed in standard physiology energy expenditure guide entitled “The Compendium of Physical Activities Tracking Guide” as an average 7 MET activity. That is the highest level of energy that can be expended indefinitely. Most retail shop manuals put garments for this aerobic MET level in their Aerobic Softshell Fabric category (or similar).

A great example used to be the old The North Face shop manual which at one time was found at http://www2.thenorthface.com/sa/technologies/technologies-OU3.html ; excerpts from that shop manual stated in part:

The North Face Apex™ Universal Softshell Fabrics
Usage: Medium levels of aerobic activity (hiking, biking, climbing, skiing, snowboarding) in moderate conditions.

Our most versatile all-around soft shell performance fabric. Apex™ Universal fabric features stretch, high breathability, water resistance and thermal capability. Ideal for moderate aerobic activity in mild climates. Use as a protective outerlayer or insulating midlayer. CFM 5-20

The North Face Apex™ Aerobic Softshell Fabrics
Usage: High levels of extended aerobic activity (running, biking, climbing) in mild conditions.

Our lightest, stretchiest and most breathable Apex™ soft shell fabric. Ideal for high-output aerobic activities in cold, dry climates. Apex™ Aerobic fabric is performance-fitting soft shell fabric that protects you from the elements while providing temperature regulation. CFM 20+.

One of their most common OEM material sources for garments they offered for this market segment was -Polartec WindPro spec’ed 60 CFM. See http://www.polartecheat.net/documents/WindPro.pdf

Solomon CLIMAWIND III Softshell
See http://www.salomon.com/us/product/momemtum–softshell-vest-m.html
-Spec’ed at 40 CFM

Patagonia's Nano-Air Jacket and hoody
See http://gossamergear.com/wp/buzz-blog/outdoor-retailer-winter-2014-trade-show-part-1-pre-show-hiking-loads-interesting-new-gear-technologies-lightweight-backcountry-travel
-Spec’ed at 42 CFM

Richard,
sure but still not a direct comparison. But if one day you would be able to test e.g. Nano Air-clothing and you would also come to a cfm of 42, that would be a real comparison. Now, there's always the possibility of doubt; "perhaps", "maybe", …

Tom,

Take one garment to an independent local lab and measure its air permeability. POOF… no more doubt, perhaps, or maybe. You will experience much less angst knowing for sure (smile).