Topic

Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques?


Forum Posting

A Membership is required to post in the forums. Login or become a member to post in the member forums!

Home Forums Gear Forums Gear (General) Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques?

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 246 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #2071187
    Woubeir (from Europe)
    BPL Member

    @woubeir

    Perhaps a side question, but I'm wondering how the CFM values we get here correlate with own CFM values of brands ? Why ? E.g. because the CFM of Patagonia's old Houdini is here rated as ± 36, but Patagonia claimed in the past (maybe now they changed position) that a fabric with a CFM of 15 and more was a no-go. And perhaps because you see quite a lot values around 10-15 and for some a value of more then 10 is so-called extremely breathable while here that would be almost like crap. Etc …
    Just curious. And because I always learned to be critical of any result.

    #2071199
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    > high-breathability wind shirts that are water-resistant.

    A moment's thought will show that this is really a contradiction in terms, at least with current (and foreseeable) technology. You will just have to decide which way to go.

    Cheers

    #2071202
    Dale Wambaugh
    BPL Member

    @dwambaugh

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    Richard Nisley is the one to know of course. He's the guy with the lab machinery.

    What I've seen (and object to) is windshirts with a 2-3CFM rating, which is terrible even compared to 15CFM. My take is that if the wind is blowing too hard and cold for a 35CFM windshirt, I'm in a storm and I'm wearing a rain shell at that point anyway. I want to keep a nice little cloud of warm air about me, block the *breeze*, and fend off the lighter rain drops— without feeling like I'm in a steam bath. I guess the issue is wind *proof* vs wind *resistant* and to what degree.

    The link below refers to a document evidently written by a Patagonia designer and links to a BPL thread from 2005, so it is dated. See http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/stash/patagonia-testing.html and http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/165/index.htm

    "How does CFM measure wind resistance?

    Cubic feet per minute per square meter (CFM) is a measure of the wind resistance or air permeability of a fabric. The higher the CFM, the greater the volume of air passing through.

    When hard shells dominated the landscape, discussions about CFM didn't come up. Traditional barriers like H2NO, Gore, Triple Point, Entrant, and other respectable waterproof breathable technologies all have a 0 CFM rating. They are absolutely windproof.

    With the advent of soft shells and more breathable fabrics, the air permeability argument becomes complicated, sometimes heated.

    Traditional layering has always taught the "vapor barrier warmth" concept. That is, maintain a (windproof) stable dead air space next to skin and you will stay warmer. That's true, if you're watching football game from the stands in November.

    But what happens when you're pounding uphill to the ridge before someone else sneaks into that untracked line of new powder? You can use a bit of convective heat loss; and you need more breathability to move the extra moisture you create through exertion.

    And a fabric with 0 CFM doesn't provide it. We've found that fabrics that measure as much as 5 CFM are still functionally windproof: that is, you don't feel the breeze come through. And they afford much greater comfort on the uphill. So we use 1-5 CFM as our standard for weather-protective soft shells (Mixmaster, Dimension, Dragonfly, etc.)

    Shells for higher exertion activities (e.g. Slingshot, Super Guide Pants, Talus Pants) must be even more breathable. For these products we hold to a comfortably wind-resistant, but not windproof, standard of 10-15 CFM.

    Beyond this, we don't go. We don't produce shell fabrics with a higher CFM (say, 15-20) because our field test shows that further gains in breathability don't offset the heat loss from wind penetration. (See Schoeller Dryskin on the chart on the next page- offering high breathability, but not enough wind protection) The goal is: both warm and dry.

    At the other end of the scale, as mentioned, we don't make 0 CFM soft shells. What's the point of a soft shell that doesn't breathe better than a hard shell?"

    #2071204
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    "But what happens when you're pounding uphill to the ridge before someone else sneaks into that untracked line of new powder? You can use a bit of convective heat loss; and you need more breathability to move the extra moisture you create through exertion."

    Is the only reason you create extra moisture when you're exercising, that you're over-heating? If you don't wear too much, then you won't create any more moisture than when you're sitting?

    Not that you can always control this. One moment you're exercising more, the next less, not possible to always have just the right amount of insulation.

    Sometimes you can regulate by how vigorous you are. When you go uphill, if you start getting warm, slow down. When you go downhill and you get cold, speed up.

    #2071210
    Nathan Watts
    BPL Member

    @7sport

    "Not that you can always control this. One moment you're exercising more, the next less, not possible to always have just the right amount of insulation."

    A great plug for jackets and clothing with deep or full chest zips and pit zips or buttoned openings. Zippers can make more of a difference than fabric breathability. Even mesh lined pockets can be helpful.

    #2071220
    Dale Wambaugh
    BPL Member

    @dwambaugh

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    "A great plug for jackets and clothing with deep or full chest zips and pit zips or buttoned openings. Zippers can make more of a difference than fabric breathability. Even mesh lined pockets can be helpful."

    Indeed! I like snaps or Velcro tabs on storm flaps for the same reason: you can leave the zipper open when it isn't raining too hard, but still get some air between the fasteners.

    #2071228
    Roman Vazhnov
    BPL Member

    @joarr

    Locale: Russia

    Dave,how BD Alpine Start compares with Rab Alpine? In terms of air permeability and water absorption? I have windshirt (local manufacturer) from the same type of Equilibrium (i think) as Westcom Crest, also Vapour-rise lite with the same face fabric, and i think they are good. Definitely they allow high intensity motion, such as running, XC skiing. DWR do not compares with EPIC at all, and i am too lazy to bother with restoring it regularly. So air permeability is rather high, but i assume, you don't need such level of air permeability when hiking for example. Because the trade off for good breathability is lesser protection from wind, which can be significant in winter conditions for example. I have successfully used Squamish in -10 F during crosscountry skiing (not racing speed, but not easy walking either). Air permeability of Squamish is between Quantum GL and Equilibrium/MHW Chocklite, i can breath through it rather easy and i assume this level is quite balanced. I'm a little obsessed with windshirts, and BD Alpine Start really caught my attention. Is it really so good? I have old Shoeller stretch woven softshell too (Dryskin extreme), but it absorbs A LOT of water (although it has thin inner fleece-like layer). Because of the structure of the fabric we can think that Equilibrium has some kind of inner "pump" layer. If we want to make something more durable, we can use fabric with thicker fibers (maintaining air permeability meanwhile). But won't we get something like MHW Chocklite in result? Equilibrium can be worn next to the skin and it is bugproof – usefull combination in summer.

    #2071237
    Delmar O’Donnell
    Member

    @bolster

    Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio

    Dale may have the solution. We may just have to petition Patagonia to get the old Houdini back. Certainly they could make a "Houdini Classic" and add it to the lineup.

    FWIW, I had a chat session with a Pat rep and made the point I was only researching the new Houdini so I would not buy it by mistake on the used market, and explained why. I likewise got an assurance that the feedback would be passed on.

    If Pat were to get 50 comments like that, they might start listening.

    #2071238
    Serge Giachetti
    Spectator

    @sgiachetti

    Locale: Boulder, CO

    Dave had issues with his alpine jacket, but I know how these forums can turn into an echo chamber, so before everyone decides equilibrium is not durable enough for backpacking, I'll add that I've used my rab alpine and vr alpine with equilibrium for everything from ice & rock climbing to ski mountaineering & had no durability issues so far. I'm sure I will tear them some day, but I think the fabric is plenty up to the task of what most people are doing on this forum and in backpacking in general. IMO its the best fabric for the job of a windshirt. If I were bushwacking in the pnw more often, maybe I'd have a tear, but i live in CO where we've got it easy. I bought my alpine for $80. I like the helmet hood on the alpine but the crest has a more minimal construction with a close fitting hood for backpacking. I didn't particularly like the fit of the crest, but I'm picky.

    #2071324
    Nick Gatel
    BPL Member

    @ngatel

    Locale: Southern California

    Buy an older version of the Houdini on Gear Swap seems to be a simple solution for the time being.

    #2071333
    Dale Wambaugh
    BPL Member

    @dwambaugh

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    Roger replied, "> high-breathability wind shirts that are water-resistant.

    A moment's thought will show that this is really a contradiction in terms, at least with current (and foreseeable) technology. You will just have to decide which way to go.

    Cheers"

    I don't expect much in the way of rain protection from a windshirt. The DWR should handle a light drizzle for a short period. Since I am always carrying some sort of rain gear, I value the breathability over water repellency. Of course I don't want a sponge and I should be able to shake off most of the moisture before stowing it.

    #2071341
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    hwc,

    You said, "… my main purpose of a wind jacket: to block the wind on exposed mountain ridges or summits…". You already have a Marmot Essence in your pack; why do you want a windshirt for that same purpose?

    #2071347
    hwc 1954
    Member

    @wcollings

    >> Essence in your pack; why do you want a windshirt for that same purpose?

    I'm not putting on a rain jacket unless it's raining or I'm in need of emergency layering. The Essence is comfortable as far as rain jackets go, but it's still a sauna bath when moving. I wear the Trail Wind Hoody a lot — more than any other top layer I own. Perfect for taking a little chill off, either from a brisk wind or evening temperatures.

    #2071355
    michael levi
    Member

    @m-l

    Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles

    My current system is a 2.5oz Montbell Tachyon (awesome hood) which adds warmth and protects from light rain and wind on the move.

    I think it breathes well enough, I dont see the point in buying a expensive windshirt with more advanced fabric that weighs more just for more breathability. If I need to vent I just unzip, roll up sleeves, loosen hem etc.

    I had a Arc' Squamish but I found it overkill. A windshirt to me needs to be SUL to the point where I can put it in my pocket on a run. The squamish was just too heavy and bulky.

    I use a down jacket in camp that weighs 7.4oz so I dont see the point in carrying a 5-6 ounce wind jacket.

    #2071397
    Steve K
    BPL Member

    @skomae

    Locale: northeastern US

    > These features duplicate my 2009 Houdini, except for the 'rear elastic only.' There's an elastic shock cord inside the bottom hem all the way around, but what is the 'rear elastic only'? Thanks.

    Sorry for the confusion, I meant elastic all the way around. The 2013+ models have elastic on the rear only.

    #2071446
    David Chenault
    BPL Member

    @davec

    Locale: Queen City, MT

    I've had the Alpine Start for all of 4 days and ~13 hours of use, and due to weather haven't used it in temps above 5F. That said, it seems promising. Spitballing a recollection from last year (when I had a Rab Alpine), I'd say breathability is a bit less, and wind resistance is a bit more. If you create an arbitrary scale of air permeability with a Boreas at 10 and a Houdini/Cirrus at 1, the Alpine would be 6.5 and the Alpine Start 4.

    DWR seems really good. There's normal good DWR, which from the factory will bounce water off just fine, and then there's Epic DWR (like the Wild Things Tactical wind pants of which I'm very fond), where said water seems to actively bounce off. The Alpine Start is very Epic like. Again, what really matters is how long this lasts.

    To further the mini-review of the Alpine Start:
    The cut is very slim and athletic. No tail drop. Underarm gusseting is fantastic, the hem does not move biking or skiing. Arms are just long enough. Wrist elastic could be a bit tighter to seal over gloves. Hood is big, definitely an over helmet fit. It does have elastane in the fabric, but dry rate and moisture uptake seems to be right up there with fabrics like Quantum and Microlight. Did my best to snag the fabric during a protracted bushwack exit skiing yesterday, and had no success.

    This last is the issue I had with the Alpine. The soft fabric seemed prone to snag on brush. I have high standards in this area. For most people it is probably not a concern at all.

    #2071447
    David Chenault
    BPL Member

    @davec

    Locale: Queen City, MT

    "Is the only reason you create extra moisture when you're exercising, that you're over-heating? If you don't wear too much, then you won't create any more moisture than when you're sitting?"

    The issue I struggle with layering is well encapsulated when backcountry skiing.

    Breaking trail uphill is hard, sweaty work. If it's warm and not windy, you can strip to a baselayer. If it's 5F with a 10 mph wind and regular gusts to 25, I need something more. Finding something that will balance just right for me, and not suck up too much water when it gets wet (under your pack if no where else) is the ongoing quest.

    I spend almost no time thinking about rain shells. I've got two, a light and a heavy, which work well. I try to wear them as little as possible, if nothing else so I don't have to spend 200+ bucks on a new one. Outside summer I wear my windshirt 15-30 hours a week, thus putting more time into a windshirt in two weeks than I do in a rain jacket in half a year. Ergo the obsession.

    #2071489
    Paul Hatfield
    BPL Member

    @clear_blue_skies

    Hi Dave… A few questions about the Black Diamond Alpine Start. Since most of us don't use helmets, how well does the hood work without a helmet? Also do you have an actual weight for the jacket?

    Do you think the improved DWR but less breathability of the Black Diamond Alpine Start compared to the Rab Vapour-Rise Lite Alpine is a good tradeoff for you?

    #2071599
    Paul Magnanti
    BPL Member

    @paulmags

    Locale: Colorado Plateau

    I struggled for many years finding a good system for my upper body in winter.
    Light puffies, the latest WPB jackets, soft shells jackets and so on.
    The shells would be coated with frost inside the jackets, the soft shells would make me overheat,

    The solution that works for me? A light fleece (100 wt works beautifully as I really pump out the heat) and a no-name old school nylon anorak. A windbreaker we'd call it growing up. The fleece combo and the nylon anorak was perhaps $35 total on the high side.

    A bit heavy vs say a Patagonia Houdini (10 oz), but since I am taking it skiing the extra durability is an asset.

    The shell becomes damp or even wet with snow, but my light fleece is merely lightly damp and my base layers are dry. Fleece still retains some heat when wet and dries quickly. If there is no falling snow or light wind, I just wear the fleece alone. I can actually see moisture pumping out from my body in the form of frost on my fleece.

    I find breathability, not waterproofness, is the what is important in winter.

    In fairness, I live in a part of the Rockies where the snow is generally not wet and sloppy.

    I've plugged this site before, but a big shift in my view of winter clothing was from this site: http://wintertrekking.com/clothing/

    #2071601
    Diane Pinkers
    BPL Member

    @dipink

    Locale: Western Washington

    Paul, is there a base layer under your fleece? I'm still struggling with my winter layers. These days I'm often wearing a wool long-sleeve, either a fleece vest or fleece jacket, with a wind shirt over top until I get moving and warmed up, then it comes off. The vest vs. jacket is where I can't seem to make up my mind.

    #2071602
    Paul Magnanti
    BPL Member

    @paulmags

    Locale: Colorado Plateau

    I wear a mid-wt merino wool top.

    In fact, I just came back from skiing and I am wearing it right now. Drinking some Moose Drool as I type. :D

    What I like about my system is I can mix and match the layers easily. Very windy but fairly warm? Anorak and baselayer. Cold but not wind/snow? Fleece and base layer. Wind, snow and cold? Anorak, fleece and baselayer (like today and yesterday). Spring skiing? Typically just the base layer.

    #2071603
    Stephen M
    BPL Member

    @stephen-m

    Locale: Way up North

    I love wearing Paramo in winter as its very breathable, wind proof.

    #2071620
    Dale Wambaugh
    BPL Member

    @dwambaugh

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    "….is there a base layer under your fleece? I'm still struggling with my winter layers. These days I'm often wearing a wool long-sleeve, either a fleece vest or fleece jacket, with a wind shirt over top until I get moving and warmed up, then it comes off. The vest vs. jacket is where I can't seem to make up my mind."

    I see fleece mostly as mid-layer and wear it with a base. Some R1/Power Dry and Power Stretch stuff is cut like a base layers, others more sweater-like and that is how I use them. Vest plus long sleeve base layer plus wind/rain shell is lighter and lower bulk and the long sleeve base layer keeps the cold shell off your arms. That's a pretty good summer system for me. I carry a R1 vest for my summer day hiking essential "extra layer". A vest is great to take off a little chill without the bulk on your arms.

    Another strategy is long sleeve base, fleecy sweater-like mid layer and a puffy vest. That makes a pretty good 3-season cool weather ensemble– if it will all fit under your wind and rain shell. You can wear that in all kinds of combinations.

    If you tend to be cold, go for sleeved mid layers. If you want lower weight and bulk and you can handle the temps, a vest is good. Also, a puffy trumps combined fleece layers, IMHO. I would rather have base/mid/puffy/shell options.

    #2072190
    David Chenault
    BPL Member

    @davec

    Locale: Queen City, MT

    Hood work well with just a hat or two. Side drawcords get the job done.

    alpstart

    Medium is 7 oz.

    For me this is a better option than Equilibrium. Can't speak for anyone else.

    #2072419
    Rick M
    BPL Member

    @yamaguy

    del

Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 246 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
Forum Posting

A Membership is required to post in the forums. Login or become a member to post in the member forums!

Get the Newsletter

Get our free Handbook and Receive our weekly newsletter to see what's new at Backpacking Light!

Gear Research & Discovery Tools


Loading...