113g Inverted canister stove

I think these several threads had good info

Sometimes people misinterpret each other, thread goes sideways on irrelevant issues, not to worry…

Sometimes someone says something that’s wrong or off track, eventually things get to a better place

In the end, there are ideas expressed.  People can try different ideas that apply to them and find out what works for them.

 

Jerry, you are absolutely correct.

The volcano stove has been found to have the best preheat coil performance of all the stoves I have played with. It’s diameter is very small, might be the reason for it’s sucess. No spittin and sputterin when the BOSS canister is inverted.

Some, not all of the stoves tested:

I’m a DIY kinda guy that likes tinkering. The Volcano stove has lots of tinkering potential. With the discovery of the BOSS canister fuel winter adventures will be a lot more interesting.

I purchased a BOSS torch with 1 can of fuel, the rest is history. A do-it-yourself project led to a discovery. A discovery I now share.

Can’t have too many canister stoves.

Jerry said:

try putting it in the freezer and see if there’s still pressure.  0 F would need something like 50% propane to still have pressure.  You’d have to look at the table in one of Roger’s articles.  You’d have to get extremely cold to verify that it’s 98% propane, but you could at least verify it’s not 75% butane 25% propane.

I found this video of a guy that put it in the freezer and tested to see if it would light. I’m not the only one that thinks it to be the “Holy Grail” of canister stove fuel:

Regarding the video: Does this mean you shouldn’t use it with a pressure regulated stove? I’m assuming regular canisters do not ever have sufficient pressure under expected conditions to keep pressure regulated stoves from operating and therefore the regulator was not designed for such pressure. That would concern me regarding long impact on the stove in addition to the “oh, it got warm today and now my stove won’t work.”

Good video

If there’s pressure at -10 or -15 F like in the video, then there must be a lot of propane in it.  Isobutane boiling temperature is 11 F. n butane is 30 F. propane is -44F.

without doing any calculating, must be at least 50% propane.

I can not imagine camping at -10 or -15 F :)

video says it doesn’t work on regulator stove at room temperature, does work at -10 or -15 F.

so, there’s some temperature between -15 F and room temp where regulator stove starts working

regular needle valve stove wouldn’t have this problem

on the video he said canister was 6.6 ounces gross

he also said the label says 290 fluid ml of propane

google says propane is 493 kg/m3 which equals 0.493 grams per ml (?).  So 290 fluid ml of propane weighs 143 grams – 5 ounces (?)

if the propane weighs 5 ounces, then that leaves 1.6 ounces for the empty canister

hmmm…  that doesn’t sound right, either one of his numbers are wrong or my calculating is deficient : )

this is all irrelevant – if you put propane from a 16 ounce cylinder into a boss canister, make sure that it survives without bursting a temperature higher than anything you’ll ever experience.

Chris said:

Regarding the video: Does this mean you shouldn’t use it with a pressure regulated stove?

My Soto Regulator stove does not work with the BOSS canister. Evidently, all regulator stoves are not made the same. Watch video:

My Polar Vortex stove kit contains the Volcano stove with preheat tube and is regarded as a remote fed canister stove. I recommend using remote fed stoves. The BOSS canister can be used upright or laying flat for a liquid feed mode.

video says it doesn’t work on regulator stove at room temperature, does work at -10 or -15 F.
That sounds wrong to me, unless the pressure at that temperature (and lower) is so low that it can’t work the regulator. There are a lot of absurd claims floating around for ‘regulator’ stoves. It might still drive a ‘normal’ upright stove.

either one of his numbers are wrong or my calculating is deficient : )
Based on the density quoted in the MSDS, the fuel is about 60% propane and 40% butane. It is NOT straight propane.

The fact that the company very carefully avoids stating the real composition should tell you that there are some dodgy claims floating around. It probably still works though: a propane/butane mix is still ‘fuel’.

Cheers

Jerry, at -30F 60/40 will do us just fine. The propane will get us through the weeks of the Polar Vortex weather. The BOSS Torch fuel with remote canister stoves will be just fine. My Volcano stove works great in warm temps….gotta wait till the frigid temps get here to let everyone know how it works. I sent a case of Boss canisters up northern Minnesota to a friend of mine that will be giving some to his friends that do the frozen butt hammock hangs as a group activity. I just might do a day visit up there when they are grouped together.

Remote canister stoves with preheat coils are recommended. ;-)

I’ll have to send Hikin-Jim a few canisters just to give him something to experiment with:-)get him back in the stove testing mode. Haven’t see him around. For sure he’ll be interested in the can as a posibility for refilling. The BOSS canister is made to withstand propane pressures after all the butane is burned off.

Dan

The BOSS canister is made to withstand propane pressures after all the butane is burned off.
Unfortunately you have got this completely wrong. No two ways about it: you will NOT get the butane burning off and leaving the propane behind. It just won’t happen, period.

What so many people have found is that the propane can preferentially evaporate (what you call ‘burn off’) leaving the butane behind. They go out in the snow with a propane/butane canister and an upright stove, and after a night or two they find they have a 2/3 full canister but zero gas coming off. That is the butane fraction left behind. It is NEVER propane.

Try the following articles published here at BPL:
https://backpackinglight.com/effect_of_cold_on_gas_canisters/
(Stuart & Caffn)
https://backpackinglight.com/evaporative-heat-loss-in-upright-canister-stoves/
(Jerry Adams)
https://backpackinglight.com/canister-warming-techniques-stoves-part-2/
(Jerry Adams)
https://backpackinglight.com/evaporative-heat-loss-in-upright-canisters-part-3-transferring-gas-between-stove-canisters/
(Jerry Adams)
https://backpackinglight.com/evaporative-heat-loss-upright-canisters-part-4-propane-and-cold-temperatures/
(Jerry Adams)
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/evaporative-heat-loss-in-upright-canisters-part-4-bombshell/

The last one shows in another way just what happens in the cold.

Cheers

@retiredjerryGood video

If there’s pressure at -10 or -15 F like in the video, then there must be a lot of propane in it.  Isobutane boiling temperature is 11 F. n butane is 30 F. propane is -44F.

without doing any calculating, must be at least 50% propane.

I can not imagine camping at -10 or -15 F :)

Camping at those temps is “brutal” for sure. A walk in the woods with a hot coffee break is doable :-) It’s nice to have a 60/40 blend in emergencies.  A full canister of BOSS fuel will stop giving off butane for the most part, at below 30F. Propane will then be pressurizing the canister and that is why the container is manufactured to withstand propane. The BOSS torch fuel is awesome for remote fueled canister stoves.

Propane will then be pressurizing the canister and that is why the container is manufactured to withstand propane.
Sorry Dan, but your physics is WRONG.
You need to understand ‘partial pressures’. They are explained in our articles.
Mind you, I am sure the BOSS fuel is useful in cold weather.

Cheers

yeah, Roger has some spreadsheet in one of those articles that calculates how much propane/butane remains after burning at different temperatures

the old timers belief that I’ve heard is that if you operate at low temps, the propane preferentially evaporates leaving just butane the last half of the canister.  But it doesn’t do this if you operate at warmer temps

but that is contradicted by Roger’s spreadsheet – regardless of operating temp, if, for example, you have a 50/50 mix of propane/butane, regardless of operating temperature, most of the propane will evaporate when the canister is half full

that is a problem with propane/butane mixes, it only helps in the first part of the canister

you can work with that though, bring twice as much propane/butane as you need for a trip.  Or if the last few nights are warm then it won’t matter if most of the propane is gone.

One problem with a propane/butane mix, is that when you use it, the propane is evaporated preferentially.  When you’ve used half the canister, you’re left with mostly butane.

I’ll be laying the canister flat when melting snow and boiling water, all will be well.

The khaki one above them would be the BOSS pressures IF I am right about the contents, which were calculated from the quoted density. At 50 C the pressure is 15 atm.

I’m good with that. The canister is constructed well enough to withstand the pressure.

So yes, the canister has to be able to withstand the pressure of pure propane – at 0 C. BUT that pressure is well below what the canister has to withstand when new at 50 C.

I’m good with “so yes, the canister has to be able to withstand the pressure of pure propane – at 0 C.

The BOSS mix might get you to -30 C, while the more conventional mixes will only get you to about -24 C

-30 C with the BOSS mix is what we’re looking for…..we’re good to go :-)

Use the BOSS canisters with remote fed stoves for optimum efficiency.

The Acecamp Volcano stove works really well when used in the  liquid feed mode with BOSS cannister. The Acecamp stove is a well made lightweight stove. Glad I found this thread. Lots of good info came out of it. Thanks!

Cheers

ohhh…  yeah, if you’re inverting the canister it won’t preferentially evaporate propane

Jerry, why do you think butane and isobutane are both used together in canisters of shaving cream :-) The other day I noticed the canisters of my shaving cream had the same shape top as the BOSS canisters. I looked at the contents and was amused to see propane and isobutane used as the propellant. Jerry, why not just use isobutane?  Brings me to think of what was found out about 1 pound tanks of Coleman propane containing butane and propane. Can you direct me to an online source other than BPL articles, that explain why a blend is used ?

my photos of the 2 different shaving cream cans:

I’m just familiar with the physics and techniques, reading Scientific American or whatever.  My ex wife is a chemical engineer and I looked at her stuff some…   A bit of googling:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-gas_processing

There’s a lot of processing of raw gas.  Towards the end, it goes through the “NGL recovery” which cools it below ethane boiling point so the “NGL” (mixture of ethane, propane, butane, pentane,…) comes out as a liquid, methane as a gas to the “sales gas pipeline”.

The NGL goes through a train of fractionators.  I think they’re the tall columns:

The NGL is cooled and compressed to make it a liquid.  It goes into the bottom of a fractionator (column).  As the liquid rises through the column, it warms.  There are taps at different temperatures.  They tap off the gas that boils off at that temperature.  When the temperature goes above the propane boiling point, most of the gas at that tap will be propane.  There will be some lighter gases, like ethane, that missed the previous tap.  There will be some butane even though the temperature is below it’s boiling point.

For the isobutane tap, that will also extract a lot of n butane because their boiling points are similar.  What comes out is about 50% isobutane, 50% n butane, plus some other gases.

If you want more pure isobutane, then you have to run it through another fractionator.  Maybe the output of that will be an isobutane tap of 80% isobutane, 20% nbutane.  And an n butane tape that has 20% isobutane, 80% n butane.  Run the 80% isobutane through another fractionator and you’ll have a 95% isobutane tap…

This all is the general idea, I’m no chemical engineer so some of the specifics are not quite right.

The “isobutane” in the shaving cream?  It’s cheaper to use the less refined mixture of about 50% isobutane and 50% n butane.

Same thing with “cheap butane” you get at the Korean grocer.  Cheapest to use a mixture of about 50% isobutane, 50% n butane.

I read somewhere that isobutane is more useful, so they can “crack” n butane into a mixture of n butane and isobutane, then run it through fractionator(s).  Another complexity.

n butane is used as a refrigerant.    That has to be fairly pure, so they have to run the gas through many fractionators (a fractionator train) to get the purity needed, and thus it’s much more expensive.

What’s cheap is a mixture.  What’s expensive is to keep refining it to get more purity.

All of this uses the same physics as propane preferentially evaporating out of a canister.  Except refiners have to have a continuous process where raw material constantly flows in, and various distillates flow out in different taps.

Gases with similar boiling points are difficult to separate.  Gases with much different boiling points are easier.  Propane is much colder boiling point than butane so the propane listed way above has only 0 to 2.5% butane.  There’s more gases like ethane and pentane because they have similar boiling points as propane.

Does that answer your question?  Or too much? : )

on the shaving cream ingredients it says “isobutane”

I’d be willing to bet that’s actually a mixture of about 50% isobutane, 50% butane – because it’s cheapest, and because there’s no reason to use more pure than that

and the propane?  that’s just what happens to come out that tap in the fractionator and there’s no reason to go to the expense of removing it.

MSR isobutane?

Users would notice if it had much n butane in it.  A stove would start slowing down when it gets to 32 F.

They must have to pay more for the output of the refiner that goes through more fractionators to get the isobutane percentage up and n butane percentage down.

It’s easy to get propane cheap, because of the larger difference in boiling temperature.  It would be cheaper to just add that to an isobutane/n butane mixture and initially, you’d have the same operation at cold temps as a pure isobutane.  But, when half the canister is used up the propane would be mostly gone and it would stop working at cold temps – users would notice.

Jerry has explained it all very well.

In short, crude mixtures are a lot cheaper than highly refined single-molecule chemicals.

As for the cans of shaving cream: the same applies to the gas, PLUS the economic advantage of buying a slightly over-spec off-the-shelf can made in big volume compared to having a small quantity of a custom can made just to spec.

Cheers

Excellent explanation, thank you very much. That explains why the Coleman 1 lb tanks have the 2% butane. Also explains how a specific blend can be made for a specific application such as the BOSS Torch. The torch needing to have a higher propane content than backpacking stoves. The photo is worth a thousand words. I could not envision what a frectionator was when I read my email on my phone :)

Thanks again, great explanation.

Cheers

Followed this discussion occasionally, finally realized some important bigger picture items are true for me:

– For cold weather trips, a lightweight invertible remote canister stove like the 135 gram Fire Maple Blade 2 plus a good propane/isobutane canister weighs about the same as a canister-top stove plus a Boss Torch style propane can.

– And an inverted remote canister stove should work about the same, until it’s way too cold for me to care.

– I can use a very effective and nearly idiot-proof windshield with a remote canister stove while not increasing other risks like overheating and CO production. And the remote canister stove is much more stable. Not so simple with a can-top stove on a taller can.

– Propane/isobutane canisters are much easier to find and purchase than rare propane cans. And they come in multiple sizes that can be more closely matched to trip length.

– If I ever get inspected by a ranger in an area with restrictive stove policies, like most of the Western U.S. for the foreseeable future, a stove and canister that they recognize will get a quick sign off. Something uncommon – maybe not.

You are likely to come to different conclusions. HYOH.

— Rex

Rather a good analysis.

Except that I have to worry: would a Ranger know the difference between the canisters? Or just the difference between a canister stove and, say, an alky?

Cheers

It’s not that difficult to use an upright canister stove at arbitrarily cold temp

BRS3000 + Mulder strip

any stove + small container of water