Ryan Jordan’s SUL Winter Challenge

There are easier ways to use the Ti windscreen with the Xtreme (or Simmerlite if somebodies don’t produce a modded X).
I would cut from an aluminum pie tin the same kind of base/heat reflector that I use for my Gigapower canister stove. What I’m talking about can be found in it’s less refined form here–
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00041.html

It could be modified to fit whatever stand ends up being used for the modded Xtreme. It weighs in at
1/4 oz. That and the Ti foil screen would weigh in at practically nothing—well say .35 oz. plus a paperclip.

Bill—RJ will have plenty of foam pads available. Best of luck on the operation and congrats on the cool new tool. Keep us posted in realtime.

and with this—talk to all in the AM

is the simmmerlite an option still?

The stove discussion is very good stuff for the early stages of invention but since we’re planning on sending him out with this kit I just gotta ask … “What reason will we have to think it will work for this trip?”

How much time will needed to manufacture, field test and ship the stove to MT?

By field test, I mean a few simulations of the expected use:
* stove and fuel exposed to worst expected conditons for 42 hrs
* cooking 4 meals at hours 8, 20, 28 and 42
* melting snow for Ryan’s anticipated water consumption in however many batches he expects to make.

RF– using my base/reflector and ti foil sized for the pot currently on the list yields a weight of .42 oz. The base could be made from a lighter gauged aluminum and weight would be about .35 oz.
This is on a need to know basis. We shouldn’t quibble over a few grams on this item.

Also, Ryan, I think more people are interested in seeing the Xtreme on the list. The Simmerlite is mentioned as an alternative if the modded Xtreme
for whatever reasons isn’t going to be available.

Jim– the modifications won’t effect the function of the stove (which, stock, has a highly reliable reputation). It won’t, not work. Besides, which, Ryan Jordan wants to be a guinea pig ( he’s a highly experienced lab, I mean field rat)—he’ll be taking some protoypes of various sorts on this trip. It’s part of the fun of this whole exercise.

I have .7oz to spare on a base for the windscreen to make the Ti windscreen work and still be under 5 lbs.

is .42oz the total with the windscreen and base, or yhe base alone. will work with Xtreme stove with the base?

Away for a couple of days, and look at the traffic!

Fuel consumption:
I can only report what I use. Cooking for TWO people in summer I use 30 g per day. In winter without melting snow this goes up to about 40 g per day for TWO people. Melting snow adds a bit of course, but I can’t give exact figures, because sometimes I get sneaky and burrow down to a creek. It’s worth the effort.

How do I get such good figures? Three things: lid on pot, windscreen around pot, and I run the stove on a medium to low setting. I am sure everyone knows about the first two factors. The windscreen actually does TWO things. It blocks the wind, which makes the stove a lot more efficient. But it also forces the hot air closer to the pot, which helps heat transfer.

I cannot emphasise enough that the third one is equally as effective. By dropping down from a flat out burn to a more gentle burn, I halve the amount of fuel used. When the stove is running flat out there is a huge amount of heat wasted up the side of the pot. OK, it heats the snow cave or tent …

Manufacturers’ claims about boil times are usually unverifiable (you can think of one notorious example quite easily!), but also totally pointless. Flames to the roof …

But there is another factor coming in here as well. I was looking at the amount of water Ryan J was talking about per day. I forget the exact amount, but it seemed a huge amount to me. In the snow I would be using less than 3 litres per day for everything. The amount of water to be used/melted is therefore something to consider carefully. But Ryan will have to decide this one himself.

A foam pad (or lighter equivalent) under the stove AND canister is needed, but gee that could be light. 5 mm EVA 30 foam would be gallons. A bit of an old foam pad …

What all this means is that if RJ started out with some water in his pack for the first day (and that water is NOT counted in the base weight!) then he really only needs to plan for two days of water. Now a 170 g Powermax canister would give him 85 g of fuel per day. I still say that is enough. I still say he should have some left over when he gets home. But, hmmv.

Cheers

I absolutely agree on the value of a good windscreen system ( and it’s multiple role) and it’s a reason I don’t rely on fashioning my windsreen system exclusively by building up snow walls around the cooking area.
I can’t challenge Roger’s consumption figures because I don’t have an Xtreme (though this will probably change). Boy, they sound good. I’m inclined to be a little conservative on the fuel amount issue because the stakes can be pretty high in Winter–particularly if a storm comes in and one is forced to wait it out.

RF, the weights are base And ti-foil screen. I’m confident about the .42 oz. figure because they were actually weighed, not conjectured.

assuming digging/constructing a snow cave, and a very well thought out clothing system worn including multiple thin base layers for swapping the bottom layer if needed to keep a dry base layer (i.e. socks and shirt, two thin wool would be my choice)

08.0 pack G5

10.0 pad insul mat sl mtn mod’d (cut 20% from 12.0)
22.0 sleeping bag valandre mirage 20deg
06.3 montbell wpb bivy (+5deg)
02.5 space blanket bivy as vb liner (+5deg)
02.5 light silk bag liner (+5deg)
00.5 stuff sack

01.5 extra socks
01.2 extra beanie
05.0 wm flight vest
—-
07.7 extra clothing

02.5 ti stove snow peak (works down to 30deg, may have to dig a snow cave for cooking and swap canisters due to cooling as the stove is used)
02.8 titan kettle no lid
00.2 aluminum foil lid hand made
02.2 1.5L nalgene wide mouth soft sided
00.2 tough plastic spoon
01.5 redundant fire kit
00.2 windscreen

01.6 scout HL
02.0 first aid
00.6 ladybug knife
05.8 handle-less shovel
00.5 essential toiletries (tp, dental)
00.5 stuff sack
—-
11.0 other

08.0 pack
43.7 shelter+sleeping
07.7 extra clothing
09.6 kitchen (cheating slightly)
11.0 other
—-
80.0

I like the idea of plastic spork. My KFC spork is .1oz. what do you think guys?

what about canister stoves?
I just striped a windpro and it is 4.7oz.

anyone want to try to strip a simmerlite? it is the same design as the windpro.

ZW, your list is sooo much different than previous, so I dont know. but it is a good attempt, and I am glad to see someone else produce a sub 5 list. (even though it may not work, sorry)

Why are we carrying the 2.8 oz nalgene? Why not several smaller and much lighter gatogade or soda bottles?

Let’s drill holes in the snow shovel to cut weight.

Insulation is created by creating dead air space, so we could take the pads and take out 3/8″ holes out of each pad, which would reduce the weight of each by at least half an ounce. The holes should be placed in differing locations so they do not overlap, and thus increase the dead air space.

The problems with large holes in pads is that as the holes get bigger, the isulating ability of the ‘dead’ air is reduced as the air no longer becomes ‘dead’ it’s got enough space to move around every time you make the slightest shift in how you are laying (even by breathing). the CCF pads already have tiny ‘voids’ througout the material due to their molecular construction. drilling holes in the pads would be a BAD idea.

Chatting with members of the mtneering community, including some Alaskan hands, I’m adapting some of their input ( in a UL way) to adding one more layer to the clothing system that is expressed in my adaptation of BobG’s and John Shannon’s list and RF’s list.

sub6

The goal is to provide a thermal “sandwich” that would be adaptable to various levels of activity and to be better suited (pun intended) for digging out snow caves.

My solution includes Reed Pants below the belt and a Golite Ether windshirt ( sized up for RJ to wear over his other layers. I elected to go non- waterproof on top for purposes of weight and the low humidy conditions (aka “dry” snow + very cold temperatures).

The pants go as worn. The Windshirt as base weight.

Kevin,

Your list is really shaping up.

Bob

I say go for the reed pants, but why dont we just size up th VB jacket so you could layer the cocoon under it at camp to protect from snow, but when he goes to bed put ut under the Cocoon because the VB is more efective next to skin. and there is no extra weight packet.

check out the Xtreme modifacation thread for my stripped wind pro stove. It is a MSR canister, but weighs 4.7oz.
is it an option?

Ryan F–why not link us to your modified Wind Pro.
I was under the impression that you needed to develop a means to hold a pot and a means to invert the cylinder. So, I haven’t considered it an option for this exercise.

About the prototype RBH jacket—I don’t know anything about it’s cut but I suspect it would be fairly tight (that VB thang) and sizing up may not be enough for your layering scenario. It also doesn’t do anything to protect and utilize the potental warmth of the MW shirt we both have on the lists–
particularly when in travel mode.

There are a number of lists circulating on this thread, now. Decision needs to be finalized by next Wed., Dec. 7 as per Ryan Jordan’s choice. 6 days.

What sort of process to decide. Do people want to vote on each list? Do we let a relative handfold of us to decide thru group apathy? Do we post all of the lists and let RJ pick and choose from them all a la
Chinese menu?

Would Dr. Jordan give some sort of final critique in the next couple of days, allow us to modify our lists, and then decide as per the above?

In short, what do we do next?

And thanks, Bob

what is the stand on the stripped Xtreme stove? what is the weight?

I believe that Michael Martin and Carl Peterson both gave only total weights of their stripped down Xtremes( including stands). I did not remember seeing stand weights alone. Carl used a Pocket Rocket stand ( I seem to recall).

If anyone is trying to make a stand from Ti rod stock, that would probably be the lightest option.

For the extra layer I agree, I added the Reed pants, but since I am going sub 5, I am thinking of an alterenative to adding 3 oz to the packed weight.

this is what I came up wwith.
well, while skiing, I wear a under aurmor cold gear shirt,(comparable warmth to MW top) fleece vest and a not so breathable shell in temps well above 32 degrees, and down to.
I have no experience with VB or snowshoeing (plan to start this up in WV this winter) but If we gave RJ a vest with a full zipper to wear he would be able to unzip it to ventalate. Again I havent snowshoed, but skiing is an active sport,(may be compareable to the action in snow shoeing) and with this system I dont over heat, and if I do, unzipp my jacket halfway, this cools me off and I zipp it back up.

mabey a MB thermawrap vest a 5.2oz will work. any other options.
this Is a usable system, and may add more warmth to the sleep system compared to the Golite wind shell.

also, dose the VB jacket have a full zipp? if so this ventillation will work fine.

I think that the idea of a middle layer w/ a zip is a good one, to be used under a shell ( and over the VB). I think a middle layer should offer some arm and not just torso warmth, if it is to be one garment. The shell is, again, important for snow cave excavation as well as for working with the middle layer to be warmer system ( by blocking wind and trapping a static air layer).

I don’t know if the RBH prototype jacket is full zip or not.

mabey an extra thin fleece jacket to be worn?

I was thinking the vest be worn under the VB, but over makes more sense.

also my personal experience with winter camping.

I used a 45 degree bag and equinox bivi in 10 degree snow storm under a tarp with an under armor shirt, fleece vest, fleece jacket , and golite wisp. (and thin skipants and cotten pants, on a torso ridgerest, and 3/8″ foam under legs) so just adding the vest, in my opinion, will keep RJ warm in his 32 degree bag, at zero degrees, considering, his jacket, vest, bag, pad system, shelter, pant system, head system and VB jacket is warmer than mine was.

Remember, Ryan F.—it will not be zero degrees inside the snowcave. In fact it will be quite a bit warmer. It would be warmer, still, if we gave RJ more than 1oz. worth of candle.

I’m not worried about the warmth of his sleeping system.

You wear cotten pants? In Winter? You got some kind of a death wish? ;-)>

actually 60% cotten and 40% polyester.
I should get a pair of under aurmor tights, I know th “dangers” of cotten but for now I love these because they are very warm and comforatable, and I just make sure they dont get wet.
they are actually designed for pajamas but oh well

so will the vest work as I hoped?

I am still under 5 pounds:-)