- Oct 19, 2005 at 10:29 am #1216958Carol CrookerBPL Member
@cmcrookerLocale: Desert Southwest, USA
So, our illustrious publisher and certified nut, Ryan Jordan, and I were chatting about the SUL challenge. He came up with this idea with no help from me…
You all choose his SUL gear list for WINTER backpacking – we’re talking sub 5# and real Montana winter – and he’ll take exactly that gear out…in Montana…in the winter. He’ll report back, IF he survives. We want him to survive, so really put some thought into this!Oct 19, 2005 at 10:38 am #1343174
can we make him just a little uncomfortable?
furthermore,I propose that Dr. Jordan use a list solely derived from the equipment that is available (or will be) on his website. We call this being potentially hoisted by his own petard. ;-)Oct 19, 2005 at 10:54 am #1343179
I’m game for anything. Here’s the gig.
Low temps near zero.
High temps subfreezing.
Winter storm conditions.
No equipment restrictions. Y’all pick my gear & clothing FSO. I choose my food, but you tell me how many oz/day.
“Go!”Oct 19, 2005 at 12:02 pm #1343182
How many days out ?Oct 19, 2005 at 12:07 pm #1343184
>> How many days out?
Let’s plan for 3. Short enough to represent the typical weekend getaway but more than an overnight so you have to think a little harder about keeping your gear dry etc.Oct 19, 2005 at 12:36 pm #1343191
good idea. would speak well for BPL/BMW gear. however, doesn’t he need something for his feet other than Poss’mDown socks?
you’re simply amazing. hope someone is going with you – just in case. your “fans”/disciples may decide to skimp in the warmth dept. when they select your gear.
i’ll suggest 24oz to 32oz of food – your choice b/t those two values, plus anything you need to obtain your own wild food – if you so desire.
also, you should be able to descend below tree line for fuel if you need to build a fire for survival or to ward off frostbite.
i’ll leave the remainder of your gear to those out West who understand the conditions you’ll find yourself in.Oct 19, 2005 at 12:53 pm #1343195
>> hope someone is going with you – just in case. your “fans”/disciples may decide to skimp in the warmth dept. when they select your gear.
So be it. This will be solo. Not for the purpose of aggrandizing the ‘event’ but to maintain the reality and authenticity of the situation.
BTW I will be taking photo gear and a tiny journal/pen to document, so I guess those items are nonnegotiable.
>> i’ll suggest 24oz to 32oz of food – your choice b/t those two values, plus anything you need to obtain your own wild food – if you so desire.
Wild food. You’re funny. Snowshoe hares?
>> also, you should be able to descend below tree line for fuel if you need to build a fire for survival or to ward off frostbite.
I’m a competent cookfire builder. If y’all decide for me to ditch the stove, I would do that, you know, for the purposes of … research :)Oct 19, 2005 at 12:55 pm #1343196
My 1st rough,off the top of my head attempt at a winter SUL list came out to almost 8 lbs. This will be a challenge, indeed.
I’m not counting weight of transportation– I assume skis or snowshoes, which would be worn except for (hopefully) short stretches. This does imply a pack robust enough to strap them on. A snow shovel would be included–I have a 5.75 oz. one in mind.
Above timberline—an Ice Axe I usually would have because I would want to do some ascents ( but I’m in the Pacific NW). No climbing or icy cols?
Weight ,weight, weight.
Alcohol Stove–is there one capable of melting sufficient snow in these conditions? I have no personal experience,here. I would be carrying a canister stove but that, too, will push the weight too high. I hate fussing with fires for cooking in Winter. And above timberline, use of wood is not really kosher.Oct 19, 2005 at 1:01 pm #1343198
thought you would be astute enough to get it – slim pickens.Oct 19, 2005 at 2:11 pm #1343209John S.BPL Member
Last updated to change Nalgene cantene size, cookpot, and sleep headwear.
Total- 79.2 oz (4.95 pounds)
Pack – Shelter – Sleeping
03.7 G6 Whisper
15.2 Arc alpinist X
04.0 Vapor nano bivy
02.0 Nano sleeping bag VB liner
00.5 Spinnsack for sleep gear
03.0 GG nightlight torso length cut down
05.0 GG thinlight 3/8″ cut down
10.5 WM flight jacket
04.0 Vapor mitts
01.8 Possum down socks
03.0 Nunatak down balaclava (The Brain Furnace)
Cooking – Water
02.7 Coleman exponent F1 ultralight
04.6 Evernew titanium pot, 1.3L
00.4 Mini spork
01.0 Bic lighter/storm matches in aloksak
04.0 Nalgene wide-mouth cantenes, 32 oz. (2)
00.2 Plastic grocery bag food storage
03.7 Princeton tec eos
01.0 First aid
02.0 Toiletries in aloksak
Food 32 oz/dayOct 19, 2005 at 2:44 pm #1343214
I don’t think Ryan will be warm enough, John.
Give him a balaclava , wind pro top and bottom with good dwr or w/b, another layer in addition to the Cocoon Pullover or something warmer in a jacket.
You can’t always count on being able to dig a snow cave due to time or conditions, but one should be capable of digging out one, when possible—the
Snowclaw is what i was thinking of, too.
Unless he can dig a snowcave, I don’t think that the
Arc X w/ insulated clothing will be warm enough if he is forced to do the bivy/tarp combo.
17 oz./day of food in winter is probably not going to provide our guinea pig with enough calories— he’ll be peeling bark from trees,looking for bugs by the third day.
I don’t think that the G6 will provide enough volume for this particular winter load.
I think that Ryan had mentioned that the Nano-bivy would come out at around 4 oz.Oct 19, 2005 at 2:47 pm #1343216John S.BPL Member
He’s wearing all that. This is a base weight that will only contain clothing not worn but it still may not be enough..lol. I eat the same amount in winter as I do in summer with no ill effects, and Ryan is in better shape than me. On Ryan’s last trip he had 17 oz/day.Oct 19, 2005 at 3:41 pm #1343224
17oz/day? do you think that’s enough – esp in winter? it’s gonna’ be a might cold, right? it’s not like the good Doc is packing on the blubber in preparation for winter. where will the req’d calories come from?
really? the same amt in winter as summer? not my experience. do other Forum participants have the same experience as John? or, is John’s experience atypical?
i still vote for 24oz to 32oz per day (Dr. J’s choice – hope he picks 32oz/day).
so, Dr. J, how many oz/day do you feel that you need for winter? [remember, no food caching ahead time]Oct 19, 2005 at 3:54 pm #1343227
Noticed some changes.
Vapor mitts would be an excellant addition and should be counted as carried weight ( not always worn).
Sunglasses or goggles –some of the better designed sportsglasses will offer almost the coverage of goggles,weigh less and fog up less. I’ve used them in such conditions. If he’s rondennee skiing then I’d opt for the goggles.
An extra pair of sox (non-sleeping) is needed.
He will need a warmer bag—some of his worn clothing will be wet and he will need more of a margin to help dry them out w/o giving him hypothermia.
I still question the food amount– late spring thru early fall, I eat something like 14-17 oz./day but in sub freezing conditions pushing down towards zero, my intake quickly goes up to at least 25-26 oz. and am happier w/ more.
That Whisper will not be happy schlepping skis or snowshoes ( which I assume will be used). And there is the volume question. A semi-custom G5 from Gossamer Gear might be a better choice in winter. It would have a 3+ oz. weight penalty while offering another 1000 cu. in. of space—wet items of clothing also take up more space.
The sleep pads and tarp/bivy are dialed in. As well as most of the miss. items.Oct 19, 2005 at 5:14 pm #1343238Bill FornshellBPL Member
@bfornshellLocale: Southern Texas
I can get 2700 calories in 17oz. I was able to get 10 days worth of powder Ensure so I can try my first hike in over a year. I will do half the Smokies south to Fontana Dam and then on South on the AT to Dicks Creek Gap. I am hoping for some snow. The powder Ensure is 1750 calories dry at about 11oz or so per can. I estamate the empty can at 3oz (a full can is 14oz). It is mixed 1/2 cup per 8oz of water. This stuff is a “Complete, Balanced Nutrition(R) to help stay healthy, active and energetic” and tasty, yea, sure.
I have been on liquid diet for about 8 months and expect to be on it till about March 2006. I do eat a little other food, soft stuff like ice cream, ice cream and ice cream. The pre-mixed liquid stuff I have every day (2100) min calories per day at 500 calories per 8.45 FL-OZ per can is OK but a can weights 11.5oz. I do add a lot of different things to the stuff to make it taste better. The cans are just to heavy to carry 3 or 4 days worth at a time. Then I also would have a bunch of empty can to carry out. I thought about making small alcohol stoves out of the cans and leaving them along the trail like trail majic.Oct 19, 2005 at 5:33 pm #1343239
Now,we wanna torture Ryan? If it’s not enough that we’ll be sending him into the cold, underequipped,
he can’t even have a tasty, solid meal. Even the condemned of ages past got bread and water. Now there’s a thought—-muwa ha ha ha!
I like the magic alcohol stove idea, though.Oct 19, 2005 at 5:48 pm #1343240
(1) Armalite AR-7 survival rifle
25 rounds of .22 long ammo @2.56 g.ea=2.25 oz.
base weight = 42.25 oz.
idea is to kill an Elk and crawl into the warm, steaming ( and somewhat odiferous) carcass for warmth. Got your protein handy, too. Blood for liquid nourishment. Excellant wind pro and if you get out alive you can walk out with the makings of a fine elkskin coat (referees— does this count against the base weight?Oct 19, 2005 at 6:12 pm #1343241
Looking better—it will only work if he can dig out snowcaves or pits or possibly if nights are still. I think that an overfilled Arc Alpinist would do it, at an added weight of 4 oz. ( get him 3″+ of loft). Ryan still needs at least another pair of sox. Really.
Or you’ll be answeringto his family.
If you diregard this sage advice, if you get rid of the goggles and 1 oz. of map weight , Ryan can at least graduate to the larger G5 w/ no weight penalty.Oct 19, 2005 at 6:56 pm #1343247
Some framework as you continue on:
I can cave or trench to get out of the wind. A cave with a snowclaw takes me 45 minutes to dig, a trench about 25. I can do fine at zero degrees outside in a 20 degree clothing/sleep system in a cave. But if in a trench, I’ll need a tarp for the top and a sleep/clothing system rated for the ambient temp.
Also, you choose the mode of travel: skis, snowshoes, shoes, whatever. Depends on how far you want me to travel. With skis I can hike uphill nonstop for two days and be down to the car in 20 minutes :)Oct 19, 2005 at 7:37 pm #1343253larry savageMember
@pyeyoLocale: pacific northwest
Just remember to take those items on jesus’s 1# gear list and don’t freeze them, the thawing process can really be painful.Oct 19, 2005 at 9:09 pm #1343257Michael MartinBPL Member
@mikemartinLocale: North Idaho
My two cents…
1) As I read this, all the insulation on John’s list is Down. Anybody else worried about moisture accumulation in the snow cave?
2) Clothing worn hasn’t been discussed yet, but I’d recommend a hooded shell to use in conjunction with the PossumDown beanie for sleeping. In keeping with the SUL theme, I’d suggest a Marmot Ion windshirt. (Quantum, 3oz.)
3) John, it looks like you’re updating your list to incorporate other posters’ feedback — a nice way to keep things concise. However, please consider striking out items (perhaps by enclosing them in square brackets or something), rather than deleting them. It might make following the thread easier. [thanks]
4) Should we include the empty fuel canister in our base weight?Oct 19, 2005 at 9:21 pm #1343259Michael MartinBPL Member
@mikemartinLocale: North Idaho
Kevin Davidson writes:
>> Sunglasses or goggles –some of the better designed sportsglasses will offer almost the coverage of goggles,weigh less and fog up less. I’ve used them in such conditions.
I agree. How about Panoptyx. They are a hybrid goggle/sunglasses that I think weigh less than 2oz. Plus, we could probably justify moving them from the “carried” to the “worn” column and eliminate them from our base weight.Oct 19, 2005 at 9:31 pm #1343262
I second Michael M.’s suggestion about making changes on the gear list clear, John.
Your list has been handy to bounce ideas off of in the course of continuing to refine things.
Eyewear counts as worn, not carried.
I would suggest that Ryan carry some form of minimalist snowshoes —like Crescent Moon Gold
12’s (@ under 3 lbs.)or Northern Lights Quicksilver 25’s (2.5 lbs). We don’t want him to get off too easy by letting him ski back home in less time than the typical commute, but we don’t want Ryan sinking out of sight,either. These shoes should allow efficient travel in all but the softest,deepest snow and encourage him to diversify his route by hitting those rocky ridges. He should demonstrate that it is possible to carry his snowshoes as a part of his UL kit ( even if that requires modifying a SUL pack to do so). Finally, the snowshoes can double as snow anchors for his tarp.
Because he mostly would be wearing the snowshoes, it should not count towards base weight.Oct 20, 2005 at 12:51 am #1343273
we should alert the media about this. perhaps the fellow from “Wild America” (i forget his name – marty stouffer??? or something like that). i’d like to see a Documentary on Dr. J’s SUL Winter Trek of “Death”. (no…not that i want or expect that, i.e. “death”, it’s just for the media “hype” – you know, like the old time escape artists. the possibility of “death” seems to make it more captivating for some).
oh…BTW…Vegas already has a “line”. i’m sure the odds will change as the GearList shapes up and is finalized.Oct 20, 2005 at 1:54 am #1343278Courtney WaalMember
I’m not that familiar with carrying snowshoes, but would it be possible to take a pack out of light fabric (such as the G5 or G6) and rig a snowshoe harness of webbing or tougher fabric over the main pack body and anchored to the shoulder straps rather than having the pack fabric be heavier? It would also be kind of neat to see a backpack with the pack body lined with synthetic insulation as both a way to insulate gear like water bottles and so that you could use it as an overbag for your legs at night, since you’ll probably be using the back of the pack as a pad anyway.
Mister Ryan, you aren’t allowed to freeze at least until the nano tarps are shipped! I’m going to suggest a family recipe to help you put on some padding before your adventure:
Preheat oven to 425. Mix two eggs and 1 cup milk in a shallow bowl. Fill another bowl with dry (flaky) flour dough or breadcrumbs. Coat chicken pieces in the milk and egg first and then the bread and allow to dry for an hour on a rack. Generously apply butter to the bottom of a casserole pan and place a layer of chicken followed by pats of butter. Continue layering until casserole is full, coating the chicken in pats of butter. If you haven’t used two sticks of butter yet, go back and fix it. Cook for 60-90 minutes or until internal temperature is 165 F. Serve with butter and mashed potatoes (made with butter).
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