Ryan Jordan’s SUL Winter Challenge

[Ryan Faulkner]

**A waterproof shelter? I mean, shouldn’t it be cold enough that dry snow just sort of falls off it**
In Virginia the snow is always wet so I guess You may not need the extra few ounces on the mont bell bivy like I would if the snow out there is dry :)

[Bill Fornshell]

Ryan Faulkner said:
(ryanf ) SUBJECT NEW Gossamer Gear sun glasses ON 10/20/2005 16:13:15 MDT POST REPLY
check thease out for ultralight sun glasses

http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/Sport_Eyz.html

Ryan, I have a pair. They are OK. I reduced the weight of my pair to 0.25oz by changing the heavy cord lock that came on it with a mini-cord lock from Thru-Hiker.

[Michael Martin]

Kevin D. writes:

>> Who said anything about a waterproof shelter? I’m missing something here. I thought we were only tossing in a nano tarp and bivy.

Has the tarp been ditched? I don’t see it on John’s current gear list.

Philosophically, I think we *need* to do the snow cave thing anyway. A tarp adds weight, requires a warmer sleep system, and requires less skill from our guinea pig…err, fearless leader.

[J R]

“that’s Herr Professor Doktor Davidson, to you”

Jawohl!

[kevin davidson]

So be it— no tarp. He has to dig out a snowcave or die. We could ditch the minimalist snow shovel, too, and Ryan can dig out his shelter w/ his cooking pot (seriously–doable, I’ve done it—didn’t like it).
It means no snow trench,though–nothing to cover the top in storm conditions.

With a down bag for even a short trip, a snowcave can get humid–I don’t care how dry the snow is–it does, Dr. Jordan should have some sort of a cover over his bag so I still say nano bivy. It would be hard to beat 4 oz. for any such rig.

So, we can save another 9 oz. or so w/ these deletions.

[Ryan Faulkner]

Kevin may be right about tarps
mabey a cuben tarp will do the trick

[Michael Martin]

Kevin D. writes:

>> With a down bag for even a short trip, a snowcave can get humid–I don’t care how dry the snow is–it does, Dr. Jordan should have some sort of a cover over his bag so I still say nano bivy. It would be hard to beat 4 oz. for any such rig.

I agree. I think the following sleep system would be pretty darn light and still keep Ryan ticking, if not smiling:

Dedicated Sleep Gear:

Snowcave
Arc alpinist X
Vapor nano bivy
GG nightlight torso length cut down
GG thinlight 3/8″ cut down
Space Bag VBL (or suit, see below)

---

Multi-Use Sleep Gear:

PossumDown Beanie
Hooded shell of some kind
WM flight jacket — draped (or worn if suit used) outside VB
Cuben VB Suit (if VBL not used, above)
Mitts
Socks
Light Balaclava
Usual clothing worn
Snowclaw shovel

On the tarp subject once more, is a micro-light tarp out of nano or cuben fabric really useful in winter storm conditions with high winds and snow loads?

[kevin davidson]

MM asks “On the tarp subject once more, is a micro-light tarp out of nano or cuben fabric really useful in winter storm conditions with high winds and snow loads?”

---

I believe that Nano is Cuben (or something very similar.
I’ve used a silnylon tarp in conditions of high winds
and once w/ significant snowloads. With wind it depends on siting and pitch configuration but is
quite possible. We are not talking about ridgetop
mountaineering situations—there is a place afterall for bomber tents. Snowloads—well, you gotta wake up and deal, sometimes often—it can be a sleepless night. I have recently picked up a MLD spin tarp which will pitch much tighter and stretch less than the old one, so I’m even more confident of wind/snowload survival.

I do like snowcaves when possible–nothing warmer in the wilderness in Winter–but I do prefer
to share the labor of constructing one.

The sleep system you propose is good except I think we need to multi-task the VBL component.
Perhaps use a non-breathable hardshell or go for a non- VBL system that will still provide significant added warmth — a W/B hardshell — Micropore suit
or a more durable jacket/pant in eVENT or even Epic. All of these solutions would of course double as the outer shell of a clothing system for wind pro and added warmth.

[Bill Fornshell]

I looked at the RBH web site. They have a few “testimonials” one from Rocky Reifenstuhl of Fairbanks, Alaska:
“The VaprThrm® shirt is an equally revolutionary garment. I wore nothing but your 10 ounce VaprThrm® shirt (directly against my skin) during the three and a half day (350 mile) race. When temperatures dipped below 5°F (it hit -20°) then I put on either a six ounce windbreaker for added insulation, or a medium-weight, pile-type jacket and the windbreaker. I never needed more than that. Part of the beauty and versatility of the VaprThrm® system is that it’s windproof. The windproof shirt, worn right against the skin, keeps a ‘micro-climate’ on the inside. When I got too hot from high aerobic output I simply pulled the zipper down to compensate. With the VaprThrm® shirt my outer insulation never got wet.”

Question for Ryan Jordan:
Do you have any ideas about how a RBH Designs VB Shirt/Pants might work for a cold weather hike such as this one you are planning? At the price of their Mitts/Gloves I would guess a shirt would cost in the area of $175 to $200 and pants maybe about the same. If the shirt weight was 10 or 11oz. that might put the pants maybe 3 or 4 ounces heavier. What would a person save in other gear by wearing this VB stuff?

I hope to have a Cuben shirt and pants to test on my December Hike in the Smokies. Maybe I should spend a couple days hiking back and forth from Newfound Gap up to Clingmans Dome with different combinations of cloths and see how things compair.

[John S.]

Winter SUL Gear List updated to change food storage to plastic grocery bag, decrease map weight, and decrease first aid weight.

We will keep thinking about what additions we will make including vbl, extra socks (don’t think Ryan wants them..lol), etc. What about giving him a WM Meltdown jacket or that badass RAB jacket or upgrading the sleeping bag or not cutting down the sleeping pads or add back Vapor mitts so he doesn’t have to wear them?

[kevin davidson]

If ole stinky feet doesn’t want an additional pair of socks, nobody’s making him. Ryan does need to photograph purty pics of his frostbitten toes and
tell us all about his personal experiences with the latest in surgical advances in treating gangrene while he lies in post op.

Incidently, no one has talked about footwear,yet.
But I suppose RJ will surprise us by wearing Crocs
or flipflops.

I vote for the Vapor Mitts, John.

[kevin davidson]

I hope Ryan does answer you, Bill.

Personally, I’m a big believer in VBL liners used in sub-20 temps. They work for me–that is, I stay warmer and extend how low I can use my sleeping bag and I do wake up dry (no condensation within the liner plus the down in my bag doesn’t pick up body moisture).
But as to VBL clothing used outside of sleeping mode—- I get real clammy (and uncomfortable) when I’m active, wearing the stuff in the teens and twenties. Maybe it would work better in lower
temps.,I don’t know. I like wearing softshells much better—more adaptable to broader temperature ranges and exertion levels.

[paul johnson]

thought i read an earlier post which said he would take the xtra pr. of socks? was i mistaken?

EDIT:
ok. just found it. here’s Dr. J’s post (emphasis mine):

“10/20/2005 15:34:49 MDT POST REPLY

The idea of this exercise is that you guys not add all this extraneous stuff, so that skills / techniques can replace some reliance on gear… ;) I do appreciate the extra socks, but if it came right down to it, I do reserve the right to ditch (but not add) gear at the car.”

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Also, even though it’s a short trip, let’s keep the good Dr. warm and well fed. i can’t help but think that the reason why Dr. J MIGHT HAVE (don’t know if he was exposed some other way and not sure of the “timing”, so i’m guessing here and could be “all wet” – only the good Dr. knows for sure) developed a Strep throat after his 9d trek (with all that cold and shivering he described) was just that – the COLD. seems like he supplemented his diet with the trout. this time it’s slim pickens though.

[sidebar: i’ve read conflicting info from the medical community on cold and the immune system. however, when i was a clinical microbiologist, first-hand/personally, i have more than once cultured Group A Beta Strep (the worst kind) from my throat and tonsillar region – permanent flora apparently (very very small numbers cp. to other non-pathogenic Streps). had so many Strep throats under similar circumstances that it is too much to be coincidence. for over 20years, never bothered me unless i got really run down or extremely chilled, then a full fledged Strep throat complete with 10d of anti-biotic therapy – eventually asked my Doc to send to me to an E.N.T. (aka otorhinolaryngologist.) to have the tonsils removed. have not had a Strep throat in nearly 30yrs now. There are some other pathogens (e.g. pneumococci) most people generally carry, but they don’t do well if we are otherwise healthy – “opportunistic”.]

So…let’s not challenge his stalwart immune system. let’s keep him warm and well fed.

[Ryan Jordan]

>> Question for Ryan Jordan:
Do you have any ideas about how a RBH Designs VB Shirt/Pants might work for a cold weather hike such as this one you are planning? At the price of their Mitts/Gloves I would guess a shirt would cost in the area of $175 to $200 and pants maybe about the same. If the shirt weight was 10 or 11oz. that might put the pants maybe 3 or 4 ounces heavier. What would a person save in other gear by wearing this VB stuff?

Bill: their VB clothing is made with the same technology, but way different fabric construction. The shirt and pants will be lightweight, *should* be on par with the stephenson stuff. Same deal on price, they won’t be that expensive. RBH mitt construction is very expensive, the clothing not so much.

What’s to gain from a VB like those from RBH or Stephenson vs. silnylon etc. remains to be seen, but I’ve worn the Stephenson a bunch and I do appreciate its inner fuzzy surface which does reduce its feeling of clamminess, better than a non fuzzy VB.

[Ryan Jordan]

>> I can’t help but think that the reason why Dr. J MIGHT HAVE developed a Strep throat after his 9d trek.

Paul, my experience with strep is right on the money with yours. I do get it frequently after becoming extremely chilled. The number of strep infections I’ve received after a multi-day winter climb with too little gear is too many to count (perhaps my tonsils aren’t the problem, but my climbing ethic – but then again, if I got my tonsils out, I could keep up the pace AND reduce my FSO…)

Anyway, this time around, same deal, but not from the 9d hike: I got extremely chilled standing in the Firehole River in a snowstorm with waders that leaked on a 30 degree day in a snowstorm up in Yellowstone Park. “Why?” you ask? Because fall baetis were hatching, migratory brown trout were running, and fish were rising everywhere, both of which tend to affect the decision making process of fly fishermen.

[kevin davidson]

Ryan—if choosing your gearlist includes choosing your footwear, it is only fair to let you use among what you have so as to be assured of something that fits.
Can you provide a list of shoes/boots in your gear closet(s) —you can remove the silly factor
and abbreviate the list– no Solomon Amphibians or plastic high altitude mtneering boots, for example.

This could be an interesting excercise—- Does Dr. Jordan share a possible link to Imelda Marcos? Only the total # of pairs will provide a clue.

[paul johnson]

>>” if I got my tonsils out…reduce my FSO”

Dr J,

clever thinking. you have an amazing grasp of the UL philosophy.

[Ryan Jordan]

Nice troll, Kevin. Instead of providing you a Marcos inventory, I’ll provide you with what I have available for … this trip :)

1. Any number of breathable trail running shoes that weigh 12-13 oz/shoe. The ones that fit the best are: Inov-8 Terrocs, Montrail Hardrocks, and Montrail Highlines.

2. Brasher Supalite GTX.

3. Trango S.

4. Dynafit MLT4 boots (required for skis).

5. Gaiters and overboots. OR Caimans, Forty Below custom neoprene overboots, about 16 oz/pair.

6. RBH Designs Fleece Vapr-Thrm Socks. Various silnylon/nylon vapor barrier sock liners. Any combo of socks you can think of, from Smartwool RBX to Possumdown and everything in between.

That should get y’all a good footwear start.

[paul johnson]

>>”Marcos inventory”

i was just thinking…it’s a little ironic, isn’t it? so many of us who try to carry as little as possible on the trail have so much gear in the closet at home? probably, much more in weight than our non-L/UL counterparts. guess, there are worse things we could spend our money on, right?

[kevin davidson]

That’s exactly what I wanted–something both to work with and be fair to you.

Troll! You beast!

[Michael Martin]

Kevin D. writes:

>> The sleep system you propose is good except I think we need to multi-task the VBL component.

A space bag could also serve as a pack liner….

Oh, on the footwear thing, it may not be in your closet Ryan, but can you get your hands on these?

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/vasque_spindrift_outdoor_retailer_winter_market_2005.html

If they fit well, they sound like they’d be ideal w/ snowshoes for this trip. Plus, they might be warm enough for Ryan to ditch those extra socks and not make us all feel guilty.

[kevin davidson]

Ryan, which pair would you feel most comfortable snowshoeing with? I was thinking the Brashers or Trangos–neither of what I think of as winter boots, but w/ your neoprene overshoes (or a super gaitor type rig)…I guess plausible. Using Vbl sox, I’ve never used, but this would be a good way to review the RBH sox.

I personally ski and rarely snowshoe but I would like you to perform this experiment travelling in snowshoes because I think (perhaps wrongly but based on my personal observations of winter travellers in N. America) that more people do backcountry snowpacking in snowshoes
than skis, and thus would be more representative.

MM—re. Vasque shoes—are they on the market, yet?

[kevin davidson]

I like the idea of Ryan using the Brashers for his purgatorial endeavor. In part because I have been curious about their possibilities. Pittards leather is up to this (based on me favoring some old mtneering boots that used it) and would help provide decent upper support(for it’s weight), and should provide resistance to preventing the snowshoe binding straps from creating cold or sorespots. Between a leather upper w/ few seams and the GTX lining, I think he will be reasonably dry. Would one still use VBL sox w/ gore-tex? The custom neoprene overboots sound interesting( 40 below? 16 oz. for the pair?), but lack info on it’s features—were they designed to be used with boots or to winterize trail runners (Hard Rocks at -40?)
Without further info forthcoming, I’m going to suggest that Ryan use the Caiman gaitors.

What sox thickness fits in your Brashers,RJ?

[John S.]

Winter SUL Gear List updated to add Vapor mitts.

[larry savage]

I’ve had good results using a nrs 3mm neoprene socks w/ a thin synthetic liner in sub-zero weather. I also coat my feet with a strong deoderant like mitchum.

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