Ryan Jordan’s SUL Winter Challenge

I like it—it’s good to have clearly defined parties.
;-)>

I guess I’m a big Zipka fan, but the mechanism would only get clogged with dirt and snow if you threw it on the ground, and even then it would require a lot of effort to jam that sucker. If its snowing you could tuck the reel under your stocking cap if it really worried you, but otherwise its not a problem. After all, we’re ultralighters, and we treat our gear with respect, right guys?

Respect? Ha! Ve torture our equipment in ze field lab.:-)>

Kevin shouldent you have Ryan wwear the VB pants on the trail? the golite tights may not do it for him?

Absolutely, Ryan. This is what happens when one is utilizing another’s compilation. I will change this.
sub6

I wanted to bring up something that has been bothering me since we more or less adopted VB clothing as a key part of this shindig.

VB clothing (as well as a VBL liner in a sleeping bag) need to be as close to the skin as possible to be as comfortable and effective as possible. I know this may sound counter-intuitive to people who are’t familiar w/ such systems, but it seems to be the consensus of most users.
So. if you don’t add additional layers (usually) under VB clothing that means to increase warmth one adds layers over them. So, what would be the most effective layers to add?
On the move, even, there will be times in which,say, the VB pants will not be sufficient. Adding insulated pants or knickers (such as are on the lists) may prove too warm a combo. What about something in between for those in between times? Is it too radical a suggestion to use baselayers on the outside of the VB system? Remember, we are talking low humidity/ “dry” snow conditions. The VB would act as the windblock element. Or is something else, entirely, in order?

I have only used VB clothing with more traditional layers and was not too happy with it ( as I’ve mentioned before) and since then have relied on softshell/insulated clothing/baselayer combos.
This will be too heavy and bulky for the SUL job which is why I have backed the use of VB clothing as being the only realistic means of achieving warmth w/ low weight/bulk penalties. Even w/ my lack of success in using VB clothing ( from a comfort standpoint—I felt too muggy inside) they definately provided an amazing degree of warmth.

I would like someone with personal VB experience to make suggestions of add’l layers to be used as a part of the system. It’s out of my purview.

KD,
are you saying with the VB clothing, Ryan will ve too warm?

Ryan–what I’m saying is that w/ the clothing systems we have provided, he could have a choice of being too cold and perhaps too warm. There may not be enough system versatility.
I’m also saying there are issues peculiar to using VB clothing that I’m not in a position to answer as a expert.

I suspect the ideal system is VB against the skin, followed by insulation layer(s) with a shell on top. The shell doubling as lightweight add’l insulation (by trapping air) and to protect the more delicate insulation layers below from abrasion (whether from pack straps or scrapes with the terrain) and from external moisture ( threats of insulation degradation).
A traditional baselayer would be jettisoned.

If I were to use such a system, again, I would need to be able to have quick and ample venting options.
Not only because I tend to overheat but also that my Winter trips are over much larger temperature spreads than RJ says he will be in.

Why not just have him wear soft-shell pants like in the Winter Checklist and then pack the VB Pants for digging and sleeping. You’ll still be under six and RJ will be more comfortable. I’d personally prefer to carry the extra 5oz and not have to be running around in VB pants all day.

Bob

Bob,
remember, it will be under 32 degrees the whole trip, so wearing VB and a base layer will probably not be uncomfortable, and if he gets too hot he can roll up the VB pants to ventilate.

Kevin,
I dont think we have to worry about overheating. Imean he has a quilt and if he heats up, he can easialy loosen the straps to allow more ventilation.
and I found the best way to cool off while sleeping is too take off my hat temporarily and keep close by until I get to cool, and then put it back on

Ryan–you mistake me. I’m not worried about overheat issues when sleeping. It’s about the VB clothing system being used at all other times and whether or not we are giving RJ enough.

That’s one of the alternatives, Bob.
There are people who literally live in their VB clothing for days at a time—some of my old expedition climbing acquaintances have done so. Wish I could. Maybe I should try it again w/ the newer VB materials RBH seems to be using.

I compared the 5 lb list and 6 lb list and here are the major differences

KEY: 5lb./6lb.

MB climaplus north pole cap and seirus polar scarf/powerstretch balaclava and sun hat

.3oz glasses/.5oz

1 3/8″ torso padding and 5/8″ leg padding/1 1/8″ torso padding and 5/8″ lag padding.

classic cocoon jacket(use hat as hood insulation)/Proto. belay jacket

down knickers/cocoon pants

BPL Ti windscreen/2oz windscreen setup

BMW stuffsack/heavier stuffsack

coleman xtreme/ MSR simerlite

hmm…. the 5lb padding is thicker?
with MB hat and polar scarf and cocoon jacket the 5lb. makes a more versatile system and eliminates the need for a sun hat and extra balaclava. and while sleeping is easier to regulate heat.
I think the down pants will provide more warmth.
the GG (.3) sunglasses are goggle like.

more info on noggin system:
I think the hat combo will work for this purpouse. he wont heat up too much while hiking because he can raise earflaps to ventilate but when at camp he has 200wt. fleece and a shell. he can also pull the Seirus Polar Scarf off face while hiking if it gets to hot, and it will still serve as a neck gaiter, and keep it accesible if it cools off.
this system is very versatile and can be adjusted easialy while hiking but will still be warm at camp.

The Ti windscreen was designed for alcohol and esbit stoves ( I just got mine for that reason). You would need to adapt it (if possible) for the Xtreme or Simmerlite. If a less than 2oz. windscreen that works is on the table, I’m cool w/ it.

The headwear comparisons should reflect that the Belay Jacket hood is used along w/ the sunhat and balaclava.
I dunno about the MB hat –it just looks so…dorky ;-)>

If people think the GG glasses will do–fine. They are also light enough to take a reserve pair, if deemed appropriate.

Ryan–add some sunscreen/lip balm

Nano stuffsacks all around–I bet RJ can dig up a couple.

I think you came up w/ a doable pad system, RF. Good for you. Did Carol C. say something about the Pac pad you propose using?

I would prefer the Xtreme stove, myself, but a useable modded weight is still unknown.

I don’t know if the down knickers are warmer but the Cocoon pants are a safer bet if things go South and things get wet or frozen. Which is why I favor the Cocoon Belay jacket/Pants combo over yours. I will say that ditching the Nunatak balaclava in favor of the Montbell hat/mask, makes the synthetic/ down use biases less apparent.
I also would say that the Nunatak balaclava would have made for the cosiest sleeping system.
( I just broke in my new Nunatak Arc bag over the holidays on an overnight and I know what my next purchase to winterize it will be)

By the by–Ryan, me, Bob, anyone else—we should hotlink to the respective lists from time to time.

Kevin, You have a Ti windscreen, do you see anyreason it wont work with these stoves? you may have to cut a port for the tube to go through but thats all unless there is any other reasons.

the hat may look dorky, I agree, but I think it is the best option. it is easy to adjust ventilation for different temperatures, and this all around topper keeps the head system simple, eliminating sun hat and, and if the looks are the only problem, well RyanJ, just dont post any pictures of you in it.

you all know I am tollerant for cold, but I would like to mention, that I have used a hoodlees bag to 10 degrees with only a fleece beenie, so for me, both systems are overkill. but for Ryan J. both will work fine, but the MB hat system is lighter.

whats the weight for the small size nano stuff sacks?

I think Bill Fornshell has got the Xtreme stove down to 7oz, but said that it makes it hard to atatch to the canister in cold conditions, so we should go with the 8oz version.

the GG glasses are very flexible, and can be rolled up, so they may be hard to break unlike traditional sunglasses with plastic frames.
Ryans sub 5 list
Kevins sub 6 list

The Ti windscreen is only about 3.5 ” high and is obviously meant to rest on the ground— not high enough to function with the stoves we’re talking about. One would need to create a base that attaches to the pot supports to rest the wind screen
on and of course cut and shaped to work w/ whatever pot is going along for the job. That base is probably going to need to be made from a stiffer (and heavier) material than the Ti foil.

But why the 8 oz. figure for the Xtreme, Ryan? It seems arbitrary. I don’t think anyone has produced
a modded one at that weight, yet. It may not be practical for cold weather operation (taking the canister on and off) to modify it at all.

As to Nano stuff sacks–ask RJ–he has alluded to their (future) existance.

In digging out a snowcave, I’ve noticed that snow invariably tries to sneak into any breaks in the clothing system possible. Like down the neck and down the back of pants ( but alas, no salopettes or bibs seem to be going on this trip).

One thing I like about having a hooded jacket along is that you get that added neck pro. No spindriff going anywhere down my back. Would the North Pole Hat and Polar Scarf provide enough?
Or is this another reason to have something like the Cocoon Belay Jacket along?

I quote Micheal Martin

Ryan writes:

>> do you know the weight of the striped stove set up?

Ryan. I’d tentatively figure 8oz for the stove. This could be achieved with a mild stripping. The final weight may even be less.
“end quote”

We could go with the 7 oz version, but Bill fornshell says its dificult to attatch to the cartrige w/o practice.

and about the windscreen,
Ryan could dig down the snow under the stove 1 inch or so, and leave the windscreen sitting 1 inch higher than the stove base. giving an extra inch to the screen.

Michael Martin—please phone home. We need particulars about your stripped down unit and did he observe that it would be practical in the Temps. being discussed.

It’s a clever thought, Ryan. I think there could be both issues of stove heat melting away the snow support and the reduced clearances of what you are proposing could starve the air supply of the stove, although the holes punched in the foil could mitigate the latter. These high output stoves use a lot of O.

When I’ve built windbreaks for stoves from snow, they are much further away.

What about sitting the stove and the wind screen on the Snow Claw. The one you have listed for Ryan’s trip is about 12″ square. This may support the Xtreme (or what ever stove), canister and windscreen without sinking into the snow under it.

Is Ryan going to hike to a different “over-night” sleeping spot each day or stay in one place?

Bill –not sure I follow your idea. I don’t see how it helps a ti foil windscreen set up. Please enlighten.

As a base for stove and fuel, I put mine on a foam pad to prevent things from sinking and to keep the fuel and fuel line insulated from the snow.

I would hope that Dr. J is not base camping and will be making epic inroads before setting up camp again.

KD writes:

>> Michael Martin—please phone home. We need particulars about your stripped down unit…

This is what I had in mind. The components shown weigh 8.0oz. The BPL Ti Esbit stand shown is (unfortunately) not useable with this stove and is only representative of a similar (and so far unbuilt) Ti stand as described here.

Cheers,

-Mike

So you still use the stock Magnesium block and no worries about the cold weather use issue. Great. Someone just needs to get the ti rod stock and build it.

The question is –can Ryan J. get his hands on a modded one (by building or by having it built) in time for his thrilling adventure? Inquiring minds would like to know. I would love to see the Xtreme taken along.

There is also Curt Peterson’s modded version ( on the same page as MM’s link above) which uses an inverted Pocket Rocket stand.

“As a base for stove and fuel, I put mine on a foam pad to prevent things from sinking and to keep the fuel and fuel line insulated from the snow.”

Will Ryan have a foam pad to use?

I am getting a new toy next Friday.

   “Click on Picture to Enlarge”

With this I should be able to mill/drill the extra metal off the casting on the Xtreme stove. My goal will be to remove 60% min of the current weight. If my learning curve is quick I should know by the end of the weekend.

My current version of the Xtreme has a stove stand and then a separate stand for the cook pot. The stand for the cook pot is made like the one on my Coffee Can Wood stove. I will post a few pictures tomorrow. I still have a couple of ideas that I need to try and some material that I can’t get till Wednesday morning.

Hmmm….

Bill,
I want to know the weight estimation of your future Xtreme.

for now, what weight should I put down for the Xtreme stove?

Kevin, if you put some aluminum foil down under the stove, would this keep the stove from melting the suport?

Ok, I just had an idea.

the stove is used on the snow claw and on opposite sides of the stove you put the edges of the uberlight on one side
and stacked thinlights on the other. this gives 1 inch on either side for the wind sreen to sit on and 1 inch of ventilation on two sides.
the 1″ uber torso on one side.
2 halfs of 1/8″ thinlight ,eg insulation and full length 3/8″ thinlight folded in half, creating a toal of 1″ stand on either side of the stove for the windscreen to sit on