Ryan Jordan’s SUL Winter Challenge

Sigh –I had to look one more time before I skidaddled. Hah!—Mike , I too, have a ten year old– except he’s a techno-weenie. He loves all the different stoves dad might spring on the family at mealtime.

Personally, I’m most intrigued by a modified Xtreme as opposed to an upright canister or a white gas stove. I have enough wood craft to do a cookfire in Winter and I know Dr. Ryan does so there will be no revelations for me in that quarter. I think you offer a reasonable compromise ( and I salute you) but let me throw out a few more ideas–

I would counter-propose one of the following( and this assumes that a modified Xtreme is practical to get into Ryan’s hands):
1.) that if Ryan’s route should take him into the woods that could be fire time but that he be basically self-contained to handle most of the melting and cooking using the Xtreme.
2.) We could estimate on the lean side what Powermax fuel he would need and if he ran out he would have the option to retreat to timberline to do woodfires.This would be the “maybe a fire” option–a softer version of what you are proposing.
3.) Or, he would be fully self contained
but could do a cookfire (&/ or a snowmelting fire) for journalistic compare and contrast purposes. Perhaps this would be not on the actual trip, itself. The latter option could include a woodfire stove–perhaps one of Bill’s designs.

It would be nice if everyone could be happy about the final gearlist and trip parameters.

It would be nice if everyone could be happy about the final gearlist and trip parameters.

> But, I propose limiting Ryan to a single 300g Powermax Canister (weight 400g full),

Look guys, this is one man and two nights, right?
I would reckon he should be able to take a 170 g canister and bring a fair amount of fuel back. I run under 50 g per day for TWO people in the snow. But that assumes a lid on the pot and a close windshield around the stove/pot, and running the stove at a medium to low setting. That still works fast enough, but is twice as efficient on fuel.
Cheers

Roger writes:

>> Look guys, this is one man and two nights, right?

Did we ever nail the trip length down to two nights? I thought three nights were kicked around at one point. Too many posts on this thread to keep track….

>> I would reckon he should be able to take a 170 g canister and bring a fair amount of fuel back. I run under 50 g per day for TWO people in the snow.

Roger, I saw your impressive fuel consumption figures on your previous post. But, I based my 9L snow-to-boil per 300g canister numbers on Ryan’s recent snowmelt test, with a 5% safety margin.

Cheers,

-Mike

Perhaps I should have said–“It would be bloody well nice if everyone could be happy about the final gearlist and trip parameters, or else”. Alsborg gets a lump of coal in his Xmas SUL stocking. ;-P>

Roger Caffin, interesting about your fantastic fuel efficiency with the Xtreme. Were you able to maintain it while melting quantities of snow? A liter or 2 of water made in a reasonable amount of time?
I, too was assuming Ryan’s test figures when assuming fuel quantity amounts.

Michael– I believe that the trip was going to be 2 nights and 3 days as per a much earlier R. Jordan pronuncimiento ( but this should be checked out) . One large Powermax cartridge would suffice in the event ( without recourse to fires). Assuming, of course, that the Xtreme stove route is taken.

Finally, please agree on something.
I give up on sub 5 and wood stoves so here is my list. any problems? if there are tell me and I will modify THIS list without comentary, I hope this to end up being the final gearlist after your input. I promise not to argue, and just change the list. I just want to see a final decision made.

Clothing
10.00 RBH Designs Proto VB Jacket
05.00 Warmlite VB pants
03.00 golite mesh cap worn under..
03.00 Nunatak down balaclava
08.00 Golite endurance
08.50 patgonia MW zip T
04.00 Bozeman Mountain Works FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
01.10 PossumDown Gloves

Footwear
02.00 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

Other Items Worn / Carried
00.30 GG Sunglasses
01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
01.30 Suunto X6
05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
00.25 Photon Freedom Micro LED Light (Backup light)on aircore 1 spectra cord

130.85 ounces
Total worn or carried 8.18 pounds

Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
00.00 Snow Cave
16.00 Arc X Quilt
04.00 Vapor NANO Bivy
03.00 PAC outdoor uberlight micro
01.90 Gossamer Gear thinLight 1/8″ cut in half and doubled under legs
05.30 Gossamer Gear 3/4 length ThinLight 3/8
05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
08.50 Cocoon Jacket
06.50 Quantum down knickers
01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks

Pack
03.70 Gossamer Gear G6

Cook/Hydration
02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan
00.20 Foil lid
00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
00.30 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
08.00 coleman Xtreme stove stripped
03.50 coleman powermax fuel cartrige empty

Essentials
02.80 petzel tikkia plus
01.00 Blister & minor would care supplies
00.50 TP: 4″x4″ blue shop towel squares – 1 / day
00.50 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
01.00 Candle
00.27 Bozeman Mountain Works SpinSack LITE Ultralight Stuff Sack (Size S)

79.8 ounces
Total Packed 4.99 pounds

with this list, I am not at all afraid for the safety of Ryan. this weekend, I was up in WV and under a tarp I slept in a 45 degree hoodless bag in 15degree storm dropping almost a foot of snow on me, my clothing was far less warm than Ryans list so in his arc he will be warm. and you may be freaking out about the pad system I gave him, but all I used was 3 torso pads, one under my legs and the other under my torso, they were both 3/8″ and I stayed warm all night. so I think Ryans 1/2″ combo will keep him comforatable.

for more info on my clothing system, look HERE

Ryan,

You got RJ going out there without any pants. The ArcTeryx Gamma MX are pants. There wasn’t a softshell jacket on the list ;)

Bob

oops.
I saw the gama jacket on the arcteryx site and thougt this was what it was.
what about using the VB pants?

it looses some carried weight

what are we looking for. the dancing light gear Gram Weenie Silnylon Rain / Vapor Barrier Pants are only 2.5 oz

I think the VB and down knickers will be enough warmth

for now I will leave the met 5 and move the VB pants to worn.

Ok, I found it on page 1 of this thread…

Kevin writes:

>>> How many days out?

Ryan J replies:

>> Let’s plan for 3. Short enough to represent the typical weekend getaway but more than an overnight so you have to think a little harder about keeping your gear dry etc.

Subsequent posts have assumed this meant 2 nights rather than 3. I’ll buy it. Kevin also mentioned on a previous post that the moisture accumulation risk is minimal for a two night trip. I agree. (Without a moisture accumulation hazard, I *would* suggest we ditch the Gamma MX and VB pants for a lighter ID eVent pants over midweight C-thru or merino combo, but I don’t want to prolong the agony.)

Ryan F — take a look back at Ryan J’s post on 11/23/2005 19:24:41 MST. He suggests ditching the balaclava and shorts for a beanie and some wool boxers.

I renew my vote for the stripped Xtreme stove setup. It’s lighter than a Simmerlite, doesn’t flare up when started, and Ryan J. himself said “I’m in!” on the related MYOG thread.

Cheers,

-Mike

anyone know the weight of the boxers and striped stove setup?

Yep.
Besides which a decision should be made beteen the Simmerlite and Xtreme stoves. I still would like to see the Xtreme in action on this trip– in it’s modded, weight saving form. Perhaps everyone should say their say about this.

Ryan F., patiance, man! :-)> We have until Dec. 7. Why are you dropping the quest for fire?
I think that very few people could use the pad system you propose ( and my Balaclava is off to you for your ability to do so)—at least with any degree of sleep induced comfort, even for cold-conditioned me. I would like to see a system more people could emulate. A bad, safety challenging example could be set for those less experienced who might try this for themselves.

kevin do you know the weight of the striped stove set up? I will change my list to this when I know the weight.
what do you recomend for the pad system? I made sure to give Ryan an extra 1/8″ over my setup. I think this will work fine.

Sripped stove could be 7 oz. Powermax cartridge weight is mentioned earlier on the thread.

No VB pants compromises the sleep system–besides which they would pretty much fulfill the things the eVENT pants would do on this kind of trip. I was thinking the Stephenson VB pants, I think they are superior, but if RBH was doing a prototype, that would be killer. Back to you with weight.

Ryan–for pad system,add a GG Night Light torso pad( 3.7 oz.) to what you have down and I think it would be fine.

Ryan writes:

>> do you know the weight of the striped stove set up?

Ryan. I’d tentatively figure 8oz for the stove. This could be achieved with a mild stripping. The final weight may even be less.

A single 300g cartridge weighs 14oz full and 3.5oz empty.

I changed my list to coleman xtreme stove.

are the VB pants worn OK, withdown knickers for camp? will this be warm enough, I think so?

should we ditch th Met 5 or keep it as worn?
dose anyone know the weight of smartwool boxers?

Kevin writes:

>> No VB pants compromises the sleep system.

Hmm. (intrigued…) Please explain.

>> besides which they would pretty much fulfill the things the eVENT pants would do on this kind of trip.

I envision the eVent pants to be worn all the time. This is close to the (heavier!) system I use of Arcteryx Beta AR pants over mid weight powerdry. (We get a lot of wet snow in my area.)

Wouldn’t the VB pants only be used for digging and sleeping?

do you guys want me to change pants worn to the ID event and move the VB to carried?

what about the met 5? keep or discard?

I think wearing the VB and having the dowm knickers for camp will be warm enough, what do you think?

I noticed how close I have come to sub 5 without trying to. should we go for it? right now it is only .05oz we need to loose.

Ryan writes:

>> do you guys want me to change pants worn to the ID event and move the VB to carried?

I’m not opposed to the original VB+Gamma setup. I’d just like to hear why Kevin prefers it to eVent+midweight layer. If we did go eVent, I think we ditch the VB pants. (Again, I’d like Kevin’s take on this.)

I think what we should do is have Ryan wear long smartwool underwear with VB pants and have quantum down knickers for camp.
no gama or ID

The VB pants are in conjunction w/ the RBH VB jacket and VB sox, the VBL system for the bag which is going to make it possible for Ryan to sleep warm and dry enough w/ the rest of his sleep setup. Otherwise, a dedicated VBL should be taken.
The eVENT pants would not perform the VB fuction well—body moisture would transpire out into the bag and would not offer as much warmth as an additional layer.
The VB pants would also be worn 24/7 on the trail . Quite a few Winter mountaineers are comfortable with doing this–admittedly not all ( including me)—but I believe RJ has stated he is very positive about using VB clothing.

Thanks, Kevin. I’m in.

Ryan F — I have no experience with the MET 5 jacket, but I just googled it. It looks kind of gimmicky and heavy to me. Have you tried it with good results?

Best Regards,

-Mike

OK as of right now I have changed my list to include VB pants and montbell 05Z-L Exp. Tights for on the trail.

I havent used the north face met 5 jacket so I took it off the list. but I think I should put it back. or put another soft shell on. what do you think of the jacket?

or instead of a shell mabey just a shirt. Im liking the mont bell Zeo-Line 3D Zip-shirt

Misunderstood your idea, Ryan

Wait what did you misunderstand?

I have already added the montbell 05Z-L Exp. Tights. they look real warm and are probably called expedition for a reason.

my question is should we add a top as well the Zeo-Line 3D Zip-shirt looks warm too. there are reveiws on the MB site.

It would be an appropriate gesture to use synthetic baselayers under the VB clothing for added warmth. Beware the weight and sizing on Montbell’s undies–they are small Japanese sizes. I’m personally more familiar with Patagonia’s Capilene and Golite’s midweight baselayers which would be similar in warmth .