What is happening in the SUL world?

Nick, I agree. I do a few trips with the grand-kids that mean I need to travel VERY LIGHT. After all, I have to help with their gear, too.

For me, a typical SUL setup is a smallish tarp, light pack, CCF pad & sleeping gear, cook kit. With some other things (bear bag, line, a few stakes, map, compass, etc.) this gear comes up to around 4.5-5 pounds. I have shaved this down to XSUL on one night trips, usually fishing.

Well, why am I complaining? The fiddle factor. The skills that make SUL possible also mean I have to spend time practicing those skills. Setting up a small tarp is a bit more difficult than setting up a one trick dome. It has to be right, or, I get wet. I often spend 1/4 to 1/2 hour finding a good spot to camp, semi-shelterd. Perhaps longer as I stomp out a dished sleeping spot on a slight mound.

I often skip any stove, cooking over a wood fire and a few rocks or larger sticks. Much more time consuming compared with WG or canisters, it takes about 1/2 hour preparing for a fire and getting it going, and, another 1/2 hour cooking, fiddling with the fire, to make supper. Wet wood?…longer.

I use a small, light pack, often packed near the limit. Well, I need to use care about how stuff is packed or it won’t all fit. It takes time to insure stuff fits (at the beginning of a trip, anyway.)

Stakes? I make them, usually a longer branch with a carved point. It takes time to carve a point. One Pot? Well, I cannot have cocoa and supper without a cup, too. I need to cook these separately. Short Pad? I need to empty my pack to use under my feet. And load it up in the morning again. Eat with chopsticks? It takes time to clean a couple sticks with my knife. All ways I save weight, all save weight at the expense of camp time.

Anyway, SUL means going without these small comforts. For a couple pounds, I HAVE all these comforts. A stove, A larger foolproof tarp with stakes, an extra cup at supper, a spoon to eat with, etc.

So, my usual 1 hour camp routine, becomes more like 2 to 2.5hours when I am SUL. And, packing up often takes another 15 minutes in the morning. Time that I COULD SPEND HIKING. So, the difference in milage over the course of a day is minimal. 20mi is about it whether I an UL or SUL. Generally, I don’t bother going SUL except to prove to myself that I still don’t much care for it.

The difference between a 5 pound pack for overnight and a 11 pound pack is pretty much unimportant if I am only going 30 miles.

SUL is easy enough on 2 to 3 day trips where the temps stay above 45*.

As far as innovation, I think it’s hit a maximum and now it’s slowed way down. Inevitable I guess.

Ultra hikers and adventure racers still embrace SUL and XUL because they have to. I know it sounds trite, but the more distance you cover the more weight matters.

The marketplace determines what’s right. I do however get amused at the anti SUL posts I’ve seen over the 2 years I’ve been at BPL. It’s like ” oh, I’m over the whole masochistic SUL mentality. I don’t have to adhere to some stupid arbitrary number. SUL hikers are like Hindus practicing self flagellation”.  I usually figure the people who make such posts aren’t out there covering the serious miles. There again, it depends on temps. Or as a traditional backpacker once said to me: “travel light, freeze ar night.”

I dabble in SUL but some things I don’t like are:

1 – Overly Specialized Gear.
If you want to go as light as possible, you need gear that is maximally dialed in to the conditions. So you might have a super light 7D windshirt for SUL trips, and then another heavier 70D windshirt for bushwacking trips. So compared to having a more general lightweight kit that works for 90% of circumstances, you end up with a good deal of pretty expensive gear that isn’t used as much because it’s more specialized (unless you only do SUL types). A good example is my NeoAir Xtherm – I like it because it works for any trip, year round, even though it’s a couple ounces heavier than an XLite. To really hit SUL I’d have to buy another XLite short (or equivalent) just to carry on summer trips where I’m already pretty light to begin with. Similarly, most SUL folks here probably need a SUL backpack and a more capable backpack etc – so it becomes of question of how much specialized gear is justifiable and the answer to that depends on money and how much you go SUL compared to other trip types. When enthusiasm is high it’s easy to get an overflowing gear closet, but as the novelty wanes a bit that becomes harder to justify.

2 – Babying/Replacing Gear
You can hike with a lot lighter gear if you’re willing to take care of it, or willing to replace it more often. I like taking reasonable care of my stuff, but my willingness to baby gear has faded over time. I don’t really want to manicure a tent site so I can use a 0.5oz cuben floor. Similarly, my willingness to replace gear has also faded somewhat. Buying that first cuben stuff sack can be exciting, but buying the 2nd or 3rd a few years down the line is less appealing and the sum of that money compared to a silnylon sack becomes tougher to justify. So my expectations for how long gear should last has risen over time.

Some things I appreciate about SUL are:
1 – Saving weight through smart design
When a new product saves weight through clever design, such as multi-use or more efficient use of materials, it’s a great thing. SUL forces the designer to really put thought into the design and a lot of great stuff has resulted. While nothing new, the Swiss Army Mini Classic is a great example of smart design achieving a lot of functionality for the weight.

2 – Simplicity
Stripping away the complexity saves weight and adds a nice feel to the outdoors experience. Instead of bringing a pot, bowl and mug, just bringing a large mug to cook in and eat from might be slower but sometimes it’s good to slow down. From the SUL mindset, I’ve learned that I really don’t need as much clothing as I think I do. Sometimes I leave a key bit of gear at home without any sort of a plan, just to see how I’ll eventually cope without it. Often I don’t miss it or can easily compensate. There’s only a few things on my gear list that I would really miss. Ever tried not bringing a headlamp? It’s normally no big deal – you just have to go to bed when it’s dark and stumble more when you pee in the night. Even a pad isn’t hard to compensate for in the summer.

3 – When Money is the only trade-off
I like buying quality stuff, so if gear exists that is lighter and without compromise other than cost, I find it’s a great long term buy. The best examples here are high end down, titanium and carbon fiber. All of these last at least as long as the heavier alternatives, and when you’re out in the backcountry you don’t notice the downside (cost) like you do with the downside is durability or less functionality. I regret some of the really wimpy gear I’ve bought, but I don’t regret any of the titanium. Actually, my 1.3L Evernew ti pot was one of my first UL gear purchases and hundreds of nights later it still looks great.

Good post, Dan.

Years ago I found that SUL limited where I could go, or my pack was too uncomfortable. For example, I shredded a couple GG Spinnaker Murmurs on cross country hikes. Also those packs were uncomfortable on desert trips where water sources were limited; carrying 2 gallons of water in a frameless pack is not fun.

I appreciated Dan’s post as well. It’s great that this site supports thoughtful observations and UL/SUL philosophies.

SUL is not expensive, or, it doesn’t have to be. A lot of us use the standard K-Mart grease pot for cooking. Durable even if it gets banged up and dented. A 1.625oz aluminum cup is about the same. I have had this pot for well over ten years and the cup for more than 40. (I use a larger 5oz 1.75L pot for two, again aluminum and about 40 years old.)

The shaped tarp was cut down from an old 9×11 tarp and stitched together. Yup, it is over 15 years old and sleeps two. The pack I use is an old GG Miniposa at 15oz. My pad is a 5 piece NightLite pad used for support in the pack and for sleeping…over ten years old. The quilt is around 30F at 20oz. The old Impulse light is computerized and has an auto-off , around 1oz. It is around 10 years old. Anyway, the list goes on to include some other stuff making up around 5.5 pounds. Slightly under 5 lb if I only go for a few nights, but I always figure a week.

The point is, all this stuff is HIGHLY durable. Only the tarp is coming up on replacement. Yes, the pack has been patched a few times. The pad, too. But, I don’t buy stuff for SUL hiking. I use older stuff that is modified to work, always by cutting down something, at a lighter weight. There is not a bit of cuban in there. Nor am I uncomfortable at 30F.

I don’t lack for comforts, but I often add things as I go. Stakes: After dropping my first days food weight, I keep the stakes I made, for example. Same for chopsticks etc.

Agreed that SUL doesn’t have to be expensive or non-durable. Paying a lot, or opting for low durability gear, are just two of many possible ways to go light. The mainstream perception of SUL is that SUL hikers predominately save weight by bringing low-durability gear or by leaving behind gear that is needed for proper safety/comfort. Many other ways of savings weight exist and are often better (e.g. smart design, simplicity, multi-use) but aren’t widely recognized.

I think putting thought into HOW we save weight is important. When I see two gear items with a weight difference, I try to identify how that weight difference has been achieved. Usually there are a bunch of reasons. If I compare a 6oz and a 9oz rain jacket and estimate how the lighter jacket saves 3oz, typically there will be a change in durability (e.g. lower denier face fabric), elimination of un-desired functionality (e.g. 1 pocket instead of 3), elimination of desired functionality (e.g. shorter torso length), maybe some smart design (e.g. pullover saves full zip weight, simpler hood cinching) and in rare cases some multi-use (e.g. poncho-tarp).

Once you understand this, you can evaluate the wisdom of the purchase. If all the weight savings are in a clearly good category (e.g. elimination of un-desired functionality) then it’s a great buy. Other categories might make it a bad buy (e.g. elimination of desired functionality) or a specialized buy, like a change in durability, where it is useable in a narrower range of conditions.

Unfortunately decisions are rarely this clear cut. Usually there are a bunch of things I like about the lighter jacket, but a few bummers too. For example, most of the rain jackets with a nice minimal feature set also tend to be undesirably short in the torso length. Usually quite a bit of research is needed to find gear that is light for all the right reasons, or you end up just making it yourself.

James is correct, there has to be a balance between light weight and durability. And also a balance between light weight and comfort.

I’m of the “24 hour comfort” persuasion. So no, I don’t own a Six Moon Cuben Skyscape tent for cost reasons, and a restrictive WM Summerlite bag for comfort reasons. Or a frameless, beltless pack also for comfort reasons.

But my tent is a TT Moment DW that can be used with just the fly.

My bag is an overfilled WM Megalite for 3 season use above timberline if necessary. Ul, not SUL. (One chilly 25 F.night was enough in the original 30 F. version.)

My pad is a Thermarest Prolite, comfy and UL but not SUL 3/4 length.

My stove is a Trail Designs ti Sidewinder for ESBIT. Definitely SUL. My aluminum 3 cup pot is UL.

My pack is an Osprey EXOS 58, again UL but the most comfortable pack I’ve ever owned in 50 years of backpacking. ( Yeah, I’m a geezer.)

So, I’ve found my “24 hour comfort” zone.                                                                                                     A good 4 season UL solo tent and sleep system for great nighttime comfort.                                              A FRAMED pack that is very comfortable and UL light. Packs with no frames and no padded hip belts are lumps of misery, even at low weights. The comfort from the weight of my pack’s frame and mesh back “trampoline” panel are well worth a few extra ounces. “Trail comfort” is in the eye of the beholder. For you the “carry comfort” may be SUL weight. For me it’s ergonomics as well as light weight.

Maybe next year I’ll cough up the money for that Cuben fiber Six Moon Skyscape. Maybe.

Well, the fact that a small group of hikers who already fuss enough over weight as it is (ultra-lighters), yet who shy away from SUL, should tell you something.

Sam, I agree. Going full SUL is something I rarely do. Maybe once or twice a year where miles, trail difficulty and time constraints all conspire to yield a 10pound total pack weight including food, fuel, and water. Three days is about my limit with SUL gear.

Well, I for one have been very happy with UL (OK not SUL) innovations in the last 20 years (remember, I was a Scout in the ’50s!)

1. Cuben and Silnylon tents/tarps (and far better designs)

2. light packs (lighter fabrics, straps & buckles & accessories in better designs)

3. lighter stoves & improved fuel canisters (i.e. MSR Pocket Rocket)(Remember BLUET canisters? YEEECH!)

4. lighter and better sleeping pads

5. better synthetic insulation

6. lighter boots/shoes

7. carbon fiber hiking and tent poles and pack stays

8. MUCH lighter headlamps with MUCH lighter lithium batteries and LED bulbs

But sadly we seem unable to do without a plethora of electronic gadgets. (i-Pod Nano, GPS, etc.) and this offsets some weight loss due to the improved gear mentioned above.

So patience, Grasshoppers, patience. Unobtanium hiking poles are coming.

(Now where did I put that can of beans?) Beans? Of course. It ain’t camping W/O canned beans. Right?

Ordinary/conventional: suckers who bought everything the retailer recommended, plus some extra clothing from mamma.

Light-weight: switched to modern light-weight gear and left all the un-necessary stuff behind. Don’t pack your fears. Fairly easy to do with a little experience.

SUL: started replacing some gear with greater skills and maybe investing a bit of $$ for special items like the big three. Reliant to some degree on good conditions.

XUL: gone crazy over the extremes and totally dependent on fine weather and good forest cover. Money and durability not a concern.

Note: weights not actually quoted, because what might work in a Sierra summer just ain’t gunna work in high alpine areas with really variable weather. One night last week in mid-autumn (Australia) was below -7 C.

Cheers

“XUL: gone crazy over the extremes and totally dependent on fine weather and good forest cover. Money and durability not a concern.”

Roger, you left out “will totally judge others, and put themselves on a pedastool for being a bit heavier in the UL range but forgets that they are trying to hike in places and weather much more extreme”.

;-p

Hi Adam

Ah well, yeah.

0.5 km/hr stuff, loose rock, already heading sub-zero, 14:30, and maybe 3 hours to the next possible campsite, albeit unverified.

Next day. Basalt scree run – not good for camping.

Third day. In the shade still very sub-zero. Most rock is mudstone and loose. Mind you, trying this stuff with a conventional-weight pack would be ‘difficult’, so UL has its advantages.

Cheers

“XUL: gone crazy over the extremes and totally dependent on fine weather and good forest cover. Money and durability not a concern.”

Roger, you left out “will totally judge others, and put themselves on a pedastool for being a bit heavier in the UL range but forgets that they are trying to hike in places and weather much more extreme”.

Just add “IMO” and you’re good to go, lol. :^)

IMVHO, it doesn’t matter how extreme someone wants to take it on either end of the weight spectrum (although I might marvel at it in my head) as long as they don’t end up needing assistance to get out of the woods… or have somebody come looking for their carcass.

I personally don’t enjoy shivering through the night but if somebody can tolerate that condition in exchange for a few ounces less carry weight, then it’s fine by me. But shivering all night gets old very, very quickly, IME.

But shivering all night gets old very, very quickly, IME.
Bob and I (and my wife) are very in-tune on this!

Cheers

SUL isn’t completely dead because I just put together my first SUL kit.  I was doing a talk at the local college on UL backpacking (my normal gear versus traditional gear) and realized that I had really cheap, light options for most items.  And I’ve seen those “$300 challenges” to get under 10 pounds and a little chatter about $1000 to get under 5 pounds.  And thought, screw that!, I can have a full, lighter kit for a lot less $$.

I used to hang with the Experimental Aircraft Association (guys who build their own airplanes) but have had a schedule conflict for years.  But when I can make it, I do a Show&Tell and update them on light gear.  Pilots ALWAYS want to save weight and Alaskans like to be prepared.  So I assembled a 4-pound pack/tarp/quilt/pad plus stove/pot and rainwear for under $100.  Not super sturdy gear, but to sit in your airplane in case you crash?  4 pounds instead of 11 pounds means you could bring another gallon of av-gas which is ALWAYS useful to have.

Roger, I don’t know if that is worthy of an article.  Most of the gear list would apply a few years later.  Quilts and packs come and go on eBay/Amazon every few months, so it would become dated in that arena.

Hi David

Many years ago we had a bit of a thing about ‘dirt bag camping’ for a while, which was very similar. There was quite a bit of interest in it because younger walkers just don’t have the loot for Cuban etc.

So yeah, could be a good idea. Can you knock up a draft, send it to me, and I will try to make some helpful suggestions.

Cheers
roger@backpackinglight.com

I’ve been dabbling with an SUL list again recently since I’m headed to visit my wife’s homeland back in the Midwest this summer and am hoping to spend a night on the North Country Trail.  It’s this exodus out of the winter-can-visit-any-time Rocky Mountains that’s going to allow me to bring a 3.5 lb kit with me.

Dan, Nick, and Roger hit on some very key points that jive pretty well with me.  Cost and durability are major show stoppers for anyone considering getting into this activity but for me.  And I totally agree on the durability front.  Lightweight fabrics shred.  End of story.  But cost I tend to go back and forth on.  Nothing on the various SUL kit lists I’ve put together for the past four or five years was all that terribly expensive.  I think the only cuben fiber item on there is a ditty bag, so reaching a sub5 goal could be somewhat cost effective.

I hope my reply to this somewhat old thread might drive a bit more conversation to it because I enjoyed reading it this eve.  I’m no longer working in the outdoor gear industry so I don’t frequent BPL nearly as much as I used to but dang if I don’t appreciate reading the thoughts of some of my mentors that have shared to this thread.

One piece titanium esbit stove to be used with your favorite cone. Weighs 10 grams. Works well in Minnesota frigid winters around International Falls. Nice place to visit but………..:-)

So good to see you make an appearance Sam. Know you are missed here.

Sam H,

Good to see here again!

Here’s the thing with SUL… you need a very light pack, shelter, quilt, and pad. Plus you need to leave all the stuff you really don’t need at home. It’s easy if you already have the gear, pretty expensive if you start from scratch. As I mentioned earlier, I still do SUL trips of short duration and I also noted I shredded a couple Spinnaker Murmur packs a few years ago. I still even do XUL trips occasionally. The limiting factor for me is the pack. If I take my zPacks Zero, which refuses to die, then it is easy. But if I need to carry 4 or more liters of water, I take an internal frame pack. The internal frame pack kicks the weight beyond SUL. When the Zero does die, I won’t spend the money to replace it, because 6 or 7 lbs BW is much more comfortable with an internal, vs. sub 5 lbs with a frameless stuff sack with shoulder straps. The other thing that affects my BW is a NeoAir vs. a torso length foam pad. At 66 years old, I now take an air mattress instead of a foam pad on most trips. Since I am retired and my wife still works, I do quite a few fast and light trips for a night or two, so I can get back home quickly; this ensures domestic tranquility so Joyce doesn’t feel she is working while I play all the time. The short trips feed my need to be outside and she doesn’t object to the long backpacking trips here and there as long as she sees continuous progress on our house remodel.

Lastly… I’m done worrying about the 5lb threshold. I do use a spreadsheet for every trip, but it is a checklist, that just happens to be able to calculate weights. Plus I create a new sheet in the workbook for each trip. Let’s say I did a 4 day trip in Anza Borrego in Februrary 4 years ago, and I am planning a 4 day trip there in Februrary again. I will copy that sheet and rename to the current month and year. Then I review the gear. I might duplicate everything, or make some changes based on notes I made after the trip. This saves me a lot of time putting my gear together and makes sure I don’t forget something. The only difference today is I am less likely to write a trip report and if I do, I’m not going to waste time documenting all the gear.

In closing, to discount SUL as no longer viable; that it is an over reaction to UL backpacking, is not accurate. One should always strive to keep pack weight to a minimum, with an eye to staying warm, dry, and safe. To substitute a lighter piece of gear that is not appropriate for the trip, just to hit an arbitrary BW weight is crazy. To start putting stuff in your pants pockets to achieve that 5 lb threshold is just silly.

Here’s the thing with SUL… you need a very light pack, shelter, quilt, and pad.

Yep, that’s exactly what the spreadsheet is saying right now – replacing any two of those four items would put my BW under 5 lbs. As arbitrary as SUL may be, it’s a fun goal to work toward, if one can do so in a reasonable budget and in reasonable safety and durability.

The most economical option would be to replace an MLD Burn (Dyneema) pack with an Ultra-Sil Day Pack (2.4 oz, very thin and cheap). A more durable and reasonable option would be to replace both an Xlite Medium pad with an Xlite small, plus replace the MLD Burn for an MLD Cuben Core 22 (6.5 oz) or something similar. Compared to similar cottage gear offerings, the MLD Core 22 in Cuben seems like the most economical 6.X ounce pack in its volume and sturdiness range, followed maybe by the GG Murmur stripped.

Lastly… I’m done worrying about the 5lb threshold. I do use a spreadsheet for every trip, but it is a checklist, that just happens to be able to calculate weights.

Ditto…I hate to imagine what I would leave behind without my spreadsheet.  On a week long trip to Yosemite (flew in from the east coast), at 11,000 feet on the first night out I discovered I had forgotten my SPOON!  Eating dinner sucked that night…I eventually grabbed one at the Tuolomne store 3 days later.  You discover who your true friends are when you have to bum their spoon for 3 days and nights :)

Building that spreadsheet was one of the best uses of my time ever.

XUL, SUL, UL …
Frankly, I am more interested in eating well, sleeping well and being warm than in meeting some totally arbitrary magic number.
Having a light pack is important for enjoyment of course, but the enjoyment comes first.

Cheers