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Upright Canister Stove Reviews, StoveBench Tests, and Gear Guide


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Home Forums Campfire Editor’s Roundtable Upright Canister Stove Reviews, StoveBench Tests, and Gear Guide

Viewing 25 posts - 76 through 100 (of 146 total)
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  • #3598055
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    Ryan said 4 of the 7 he tested melted. The batch of 7 he purchased had 4 stoves that some supports were made of a metal that melted, must not have been made of titanium. Somebody mistakenly introduced a coil of substandard metal when stamping out the small support arms. We don’t doubt you Roger about the melting of titanium. We just need the stoves removed from the commercial sellers here in the USA. Ryan and Hikin’ Jim(Jim Barbour) have the ability to do so, at least try. Their expertise in stove testing can convince the authorities to investigate and find the manufacture responsible and have the stoves recalled. It’s the right thing to do. We won’t tolerate our children to be scalded by stove mishaps and forests started on fire.

    We don’t doubt you Roger!

     

     

    #3598058
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    If someone substituted another metal for Ti, then that someone should be in big trouble.
    Now, how do we contact BRS and ask?

    Cheers

    #3598060
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

     

    Now, how do we contact BRS and ask?

    We ask Ryan Jordan to contact the Federal Consumer Product Safety Commision, submit his findings and then that Comission will contact BRS and ask that question and a lot more.

    https://www.usa.gov/federal-agencies/consumer-product-safety-commission

    #3598062
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    You could alternately buy a BRS-75 stove. Please note the power rating (7 kW) and the boil time for 1 L (<2 min).

    Cheers

    #3598076
    James Marco
    BPL Member

    @jamesdmarco

    Locale: Finger Lakes

    Well, being in the business makes it difficult to also let it be known you are a “watchdog.” I suspect BPL is simply avoiding all sorts of issues by not responding.

    IFF whoever owns a failed stove would sen in complaints, some action could be had. But I suspect BPL will not do this. The foremost is with any testing protocol in place, you often test prototypes that fail for one reason or another. IFF you go running to some sort of consumer protection organization at every failure, you would quickly loose all testing credibility with manufacturers (they don’t send you items to test,) you loose credibility with your audience (because you are not doing any new tests,) besides loosing any testing support/financial support (to purchase stuff to do independent testing for a wide community base,) for example. Other reasons, of course, this is only a single example. Internationalism, wide base of readers that disagree, support from vendors that sell manufacturers products, etc… I am sure Ryan has thought about it further. As a business, it is hard to make a decision like that, because, it means leaving a potentially faulty item for public use resulting in “accidents.”

    No, Dan. Going forward by BPL with a formal report means too many negative effects on the business. As I alluded to previously, Consumer Protection is NOT what BPL wants to get involved in. What the readers do, well, that is a different story… most of us do not manufacture things, even information, for sale…

     

     

    #3598302
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

     

    @jamesdmarco, I am sure Ryan has thought about it further. As a business, it is hard to make a decision like that, because, it means leaving a potentially faulty item for public use resulting in “accidents.”

    No, Dan. Going forward by BPL with a formal report means too many negative effects on the business. As I alluded to previously, Consumer Protection is NOT what BPL wants to get involved in.

    James, you are right, it’s all about the money(business). What I presented to them was a test. Did they pass or did they fail?

    #3601458
    John
    BPL Member

    @johnnyh88

    Locale: The SouthWest

    Does the Fire Maple FMS-300T still have the sintered brass filter that should be replaced?

    It seems to have done pretty well on fuel-efficiency, even in the wind test.

    #3601552
    Gary Dunckel
    BPL Member

    @zia-grill-guy

    Locale: Boulder

    I am curious as to whether the failure rate of the BRS-3000T stoves could be directly related to the fact that the test involved opening the flame valves to maximum output. I have 3 of these stoves, and I always run them at medium-to-medium low flame settings. I only had one mishap, which was using the BRS with one of my JB pot riser disks with a TITANIUM JB pot. One of the support arms must have softened and bent downward when my mate fired up the stove for his dinner pouch. He has a bad habit of running all stoves at very high flame output, and I always chew him out for this (when I catch him). First of all, the pot riser disk requires a lower flame so as to not to quench the flame. The other variable here is that perhaps the titanium JB Sol pot reflects more heat back to the stove than would an aluminum Sol pot. I’ve never had any issues using my aluminum Sol with the BRS-3000T and riser disk, over at least 100 2-cup boils. I easily was able to bend the pot support back to it’s proper position, but I’ve not taken the time to do more testing of that particular stove to see if I could duplicate the failure, and also to test it with an aluminum Sol cup.

    #3607528
    Clint N.
    Spectator

    @cnewitt

    Locale: Utah

    With the recommendation from this project, I bought an MSR Pocketrocket Deluxe. I had read the posts regarding not being able to fit the stove and fuel canister inside the 0.85 liter titan kettle and closing the lid fully. I spent a bit of time on this last night and figured out the puzzle :)

    The canister is a bit above the rim of the pot but the slight dome of the lid accommodates this and closes fully. Sorry for the sideways pic; the combination of my phone and the website (and my brain) wouldn’t let me rotate.

     

    #3607538
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    Gary, Roger said titanium pot supports on the BRS 3000 don’t melt. We have to totally disregard what Ryan and his crew said.

    I purchased 7 of the BRS 3000 and will do a sensible testing of them. This is backpackinglight. All serious backpackers should reconsider what Ryans said and purchase the BSR’s and use an appropriate size pot….think 650ml max. capacity. I strongly suggest doing what Roger suggested…..run stoves at 1/2 power. Ryans full throttle stove bench method is a joke.

    Ryans comment “thank you very much” regarding his purchase of 7 was………heh heh heh, yah right!

    #3607569
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    Roger said titanium pot supports on the BRS 3000 don’t melt.
    That is true but it could be a bit misleading if not taken in context.
    I said two things:

    * A propane flame can not melt any titanium metal: a propane flame can not get hot enough to do that. That is hard scientific fact. You can look it up on the web.

    * I also said that the pot supports on the BRS-3000T stoves which I have, from a couple of years ago, do not soften in use. But, as Dan notes, I never run them flat out. I suggested that maybe BRS had switched from a good Ti alloy to the softer ‘pure’ Ti as it is cheaper to buy and to process, but that was just a guess on my part.

    I have not had any trouble using an MSR Titan (titanium) 1.2 L pot on a BRS-3000T stove, with a windshield around it. Works fine. At medium power the canister does not get more than slightly warm, which is fine.

    I have a couple of them, and I use them. I think it is a good stove, especially considering its price and weight.

    Cheers

    #3607768
    Mark
    BPL Member

    @gixer

    A propane flame will reach around 1980c

    Melting point of Titanium is 1668c

    #3607769
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    @Mark

    That is the peak temperature of a propane/oxygen flame – similar to an oxy-acetylene flame. But that assumes complete combustion of a stoichiometric mix of oxygen and propane.

    We are not dealing with that here. We are dealing with a propane/air mix, and there is a lot of cold nitrogen gas mixed in with the oxygen. In the field, a propane-butane flame only gets up to about 1225 C as it has to heat up all that nitrogen as well. In addition, a propane/butane flame may entrain extra air up near the top of the flame, just due to gas dynamics. This (1225 C) is a long way below the MP of titanium, which is variously reported as being between 1670 C and 1725 C. I favour the lower of the two.

    Titanium may glow of course, and it may even soften somewhat, in a propane/butane flame. Ti 6Al4V needs an extra 200 C (approx) over CP Ti for the same weakening.

    Cheers

    #3607778
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    Ryan said 4 out of 7 melted, yet there are no photos or videos of such occurance. Sad, sad, sad!!!

    Roger said: Well, they don’t really melt, they overheat and slowly bend under the weight of a full pot of water and food.
    This doesn’t happen in a single sitting, it tends to happen over repeated overuses.

    Roger, is that your personal experience or just what you read on the internet?

    #3607838
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    I have never had the pot support arms on a BRS-3000T bend on me.

    I have worked a fair bit with Ti alloys: machining and forming.
    I have seen Ti alloy wire at red heat slowly bend when loaded.
    I have bent/formed Ti alloy sheet using heat to avoid cracking.
    This is all first-hand experience.

    Cheers

    #3608586
    Jan Paul M
    BPL Member

    @janpaul

    The test results clearly underline the experience I had last winter with my Kovea Ti burner. It wouldn’t even heat half a liter of water with Coleman extreme gas. I thought the gas was to blame, or the temperatures, even though it was moderate for winter. Now I know it’s the stove. I was about to get a new MSR, when I used the Kovea again this summer in Norway and realized how much difference my titanium windshield makes. It wraps around the pot and the canister completely. Heating times are down to a less then a quarter of the times without the windscreen, fuel consumption is much, much lower and the windshield also traps so much heat that it can easily keep the canister warm (so much so, that I need to open it up on warm days to prevent overheating). I’m now thinking that this will also be good enough to get good performance out of the Kovea in winter. So, not to take anything away from the great test, with a little help from a good windscreen and some understanding of what the strong and weak points of your equipment are, even the lesser burners might still cut it. At least, I’m going to give the Kovea one more chance this winter.

    #3608587
    James Marco
    BPL Member

    @jamesdmarco

    Locale: Finger Lakes

    It is not unusual that anything made for use can simply destroy itself in use. A simplistic example is your car. Park it and press the accelerator peddle to the floor…the engine WILL destroy itself. The BRS 3000 is really no different. As I have said in the past, you can not do a test like this and get meaningful results.

    Windscreen over a canister? Cooking in a tent? Running stoves on a flat, level surface? And so on… We cannot say we, as backpackers, always follow all safety rules at all times.  In most cases, we can use some item to maximum effect by NOT using it flat out. Some items may operate well flat out. To be more specific, the Windburner and Reactor systems do very well on full- on settings. Others, like the BRS, will fail.

    As Jan Paul M points out, even a moderate performer in these tests can still be used effectively in the field. So, we start looking at other methodes to help or exceed manufacturers specs, in Jan’s case a tight windscreen/heat shield.

    While Ryan’s Fvalue is a measure of flat out heating, there are simply too many variables to say this is a good methode. Slight differences in jet size, canister fuel make up, flame distribution, style of flame production, radiated heat to the canister (burner style,) etc will make large differences in full open use than is tested. There will always be some “margin of error.”  And, the relationship between field use and testing becomes highly questionable.  How many of us actually use a stove at full-on to boil two cups of water? And, if you cook anything, as opposed to simply boiling water, how does the longer operation effect efficiency?

    As for me, I will likely ignore Ryan’s results. The results have way too many variables to be able to say which stove is better. The BRS failures gives me pause. Why did only 4 out of 7 fail? Why not all 7? Different setups during manufacture? Different batches of raw material? Some people use a BRS-3000 with good results. Others do not. Fuel? Wind? Even setting on a small rock vs the ground vs a table may have effected the reliability.

    #3608601
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    The word “melted” is not literal

    Way before melting temperature metal starts to lose it’s strength and will bend under load

    I have a BRS 3000 and it worked fine, but I just used it a little.  Too many failure reports to rely on in my opinion.  Also, it’s so short.  That means the valve gets hotter.  That might cause it to fail.  It was designed to be lightweight, not reliable.

     

    #3608668
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    the valve gets hotter. That might cause it to fail.
    Unlikely. The O-ring is the only thing in the valve which might fail, and the rubber is rated to over 200 C – 250 C if it is Viton.

    Just remember the Touch Test for the canister.

    Cheers

    #3608675
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    I wonder if BRS-3000 has Viton o-rings : )

    The failure reports for BRS-3000 did not seem to be the valve

    I wonder why other stoves are taller

     

    #3608686
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    The word “melted” is not literal
    ‘Melted’ means to change state from solid to liquid. If you don’t mean that, don’t use the word.

    I wonder if BRS-3000 has Viton o-rings : )
    I would certainly expect so, but I have not tested the rubber.
    Viton has a recommended temperature range of about -28 C to +220 C. The next choice would be nitrile, but the recommended temperature range for that is -40° C to +107° C, and we know that stoves do reach boiling point sometimes. So you can see why I expect it to be Viton.

    I wonder why other stoves are taller
    In many cases it is because the so-called ‘designer’ did not know how to manage the gas flow inside the burner, and so resorted to a long column to get the required fuel/air mixing. You can see how well the flames on the BRS-3000T look: that means that they got good mixing with that short column. And a short column gives a more stable stove.

    Without naming companies, I have found from conversation with several of them that they do not have real designers, just ‘product managers’. And many stoves show that clearly.

    Cheers

    #3608696
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    Ryan claims to have a Engineering PhD so why did he claim that 4 out of 7 BRS3000T stove had pot supports melted????  No photos, no videos. No response to the questions we have????? Why does the cat have his tounge????  Did he rely solely on the anecdotal findings of Hikin-Jim?

    an·ec·do·tal    adjective
    (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.
    “while there was much anecdotal evidence there was little hard fact”
    synonyms: informal, unreliable, based on hearsay; unscientific
    “the evidence is merely anecdotal”</i></div>

    </div>

    #3608753
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    “‘Melted’ means to change state from solid to liquid. If you don’t mean that, don’t use the word.”

    engineer/scientists are so literal : )

    “so resorted to a long column to get the required fuel/air mixing.”

    looking at ADC wind, yeah, a lot of the extra length (compared to BRS 3000) is after the orifice which would allow mixing

    maybe whatever designers there are don’t care that much about saving an ounce of weight so the length is somewhat arbitrary.  Maybe that’s just how it’s done.

    #3608772
    Renais A
    BPL Member

    @renais

    I was camping last weekend with an owner of a new BRS 3000 who was so pleased with its low cost  compared to his Jetboil.  His first time using it was to heat about 12 ounces of water in a 1.3 l aluminum pot. He was using a low flame.  Two of the pot supports deformed by almost bending double on themselves before the water boiled. He’s back to Jetboil. My guess is that the supports bent within two minutes.

    #3608838
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    Hi Renais

    Two of the pot supports deformed by almost bending double on themselves before the water boiled.
    Can you get photos? PLEASE!
    That is NOT how the originals behaved. Mine work fine.

    Cheers

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