stoves: how I decided alcohol is a weight saver (vs canister) for a long trip

I have never seen that argument used involving so much water per day.

No Esbit?

A trip that long without re-supply and using that much water per day, may make a more efficient canister stove such as a jetboil, windburner, or a reactor might make sense.  It might be worth doing the math and seeing.

Regarding the water usage, that’s for 2 of us.  3 cups for main meal (lunch or dinner), 2 cups for wife’s coffee, 3 cups for breakfast for both of us.  We’re big eaters!

I’ve never used Esbit and probably won’t go down that path as it’s pricier than alcohol and hikers have said it’s stinky.

Jetboil is a possibility I should look into.  I need to check out pot size and see if it’s workable for out meals.  But to be honest I like the idea of ditching canisters.  I don’t like the throw away aspect.  Even if you recycle them.  But I’ll check out Jetboil.  Make a trip to our local REI, look at the real thing (instead of online) and talk to the sales folks.

I agree with your overall findings that alcohol pound-miles (which are linear with hot water needs) versus butane canisters (which stair-step as you need additional canisters), can either:

1) trade places over different trip lengths, or
2) alcohol may always be ahead with a efficient set-up like the CC, especially in moderate conditions, or

3) butane might be ahead almost all the time if your trips dictates a HX pot, typically due to large party size or snow-melting requirements.  Also, filling canisters to custom weights can avoid carrying extra fuel.

Your particular trip (mild conditions, can’t dump empty butane canisters) would be one in which alcohol might be ahead for all / almost-all of the days.

“got 4 cups of water to boil with .8 fluid ounce of denatured alcohol.” that is a really, really good efficiency.  I’d suggest you repeat that outside in cool weather with refrigerated water to reflect use in the mountains.  I’d expect closer to a full ounce to boil 4 cups and then whatever margin you want to add to that.

One advantage to alcohol is that you measure the alcohol, light it, and can do something else for the 7 minutes (for a pint of water) or 15 minutes (for a quart) of water while it comes to a boil.  Set up camp, do other meal prep, whatever.  And if you are forgetful, you come back to slightly cooler than boiling water, but you haven’t wasted any fuel as you would on a butane or WG stove.

There are containers with measuring compartments built in so you measure at 0.5, 0.8. 1.0 ounces or whatever you need for that volume of water.  Or, you can practice with a vodka bottle out of the recycle bin and use the cap to measure X.X capfuls for your needs.  Vodka bottles are PETE, nice and light, and have a little plastic insert in the mouth which makes it pour a nice controlled stream (like many olive oil bottles do).  Just pry out the little insert to refill it and then press the insert back in.

Thanks, David.  Yes, I thought the .8 ounce of alcohol for 4 cups was too optimistic, so I rounded up to 1 fluid ounce, which for us means 2 fluid ounces per day (for 8 cups of water) and then instead of just going with 2 ounces per day, I went with 3 to hopefully allow for cooler water and cooler ambient outdoor temps.

I’m hoping to do a trip next month, 6 or 7 days, in the San Juan Mountains of southwestern CO to give us an opportunity to verify my guesstimates at alcohol burn.  The 18 day trip was supposed to be this year, but we may have to postpone till next year. :-(  It will be in the North Cascades in Washington State, so similar temps (maybe a little warmer) than the Colorado mountains.

If you got 0.8 ounces to boil a quart at home you obviously know how to use the CC set-up and I’d stick with 1.0 ounces per quart for actual field use.  That’s what Manfred (who is a very data-driven guy) reports over many extreme settings (Brooks Range Alaska, Iceland traverse and I watched him last week in the Aleutians) short of winter camping with his CC.  I wouldn’t add an additional 50% on top of that for cold water/weather.  I think the 25% increase from 0.8 to 1.0 does that.   Unless you want to have hot showers before the end of your trip.

Greg, did you test with the 12-10 stove or the Modified starlyte?

If you are truly going after weight efficiency, you should start out by forgetting about boils and start thinking about heating water to be hot enough.  Coffee is considered to be optimal at 145-155.  That right there is a big fuel savings.  Invest in a cosy and let FBC meals sit longer.  BTW, pre-warming your water will help out a lot. Place the bottle out in the sun to raise it a few degrees.  Also, consider keeping the water container for your morning cup of coffee near or in your bag to warm it up a few degrees.  I agree with others that 4 cups of hot water per day per person is a lot.

If you are going with a canister stove, invest in a highly efficient one.  Also, learn to turn the flame level low to increase the efficiency.  You would be surprised to see what kinds of differences that you can get out of a Jetfoil simply by turning the flame lower.  Shoot for a 6 minute boil time for 2 cups rather than a sub 4 minute boil.

If you want to get more mileage out of an alcohol stove, not all denatured alcohol is the same.  A few have high ethanol content which might give you a bit of a boost.  Some people have experimented with mixing a little isopropyl alcohol in with their DA.  Little tweaks could carry you a bit further.

Dan,

I don’t know those two stoves by name.  The CC stove I’m using came with the Cone.  I bought it back in 2008 or even 2007 (maybe 2006??)

It’s a simple stove, big hole in the top, small punched holes on the lower outside wall (all around) and small punched holes in the upper inside wall.  If my description doesn’t make it clear, I’ll take a pic of it tomorrow and post it.

Thanks David for the feedback re alcohol amount.  I’m hoping your right!  If we get to do another outing, I’ll confirm it and post about it back here.

Jet boil numbers are interesting.  Roughly .3 oz per L of fuel so 1 8oz can could almost cover you the whole trip.  If you limited your self to 28L of water for your trip and were okay with a .8L pot your total cooking weight would be

12 oz jet boil

13 oz fuel + can decreasing at . 45oz per day.  But then you’d need to cut down to 1.5L per day.

You could add a 100g can at resupply which weighs about 7 oz.  which would give you 40 L of capacity for your trip.

So for 2L per day fuel weight to start 13oz

fuel weight before resupply is 7.6 oz

after resupply is 13 oz and at the end of trip is 8.5 oz

but the real benefit of a jetboil is convenience.  Boiled water is 2.5 minutes.

Jon, good point about water temp.  Sometimes we want a boil if we’re using unfiltered water that was gathered not near the source.  But I’ve got a filter, so why not use it in those situations and avoid having to get the water all the way to the boil?  Definitely don’t need a boil for coffee (Starbucks Via or Mr Hagen instant). (but now I will have to bring a thermometer! ;-)

We do use a pot cozy for our breakfasts of quick oats and for our dinners of minute rice and pre-cooked and dried lentils ( or split peas or black beans with dried corn tortillas instead of rice).  On a multi-day trek, we usually bring a couple of carrots and a very small head of cabbage (peeling off a leaf or two from the outside for each meal…  yes, I know, heavy heavy heavy, but we like a little fresh veggie in the meal) and like those to cook for a minute or two in boiling water.  But I bet they would cook enough in the cozy without first getting to a full boil.  Something I’ll have to experiment with.

And yes, I hear you about the flame size.  Smaller flame, longer to boil, is more fuel efficient due to less heat lost to the air around the stove and pot instead of going into the pot. (As long as you keep the wind from interfering)  Back in the day one of the reasons I switched from white gas to canister (anyone remember Bluet stoves?) was that the gas stoves were gas hogs, burning a lot more fuel by weight than the canister stoves.  ‘course I probably could have mitigated that by running the gas stove at a lower temp.

Greg F, I’ll have to look at the Jetboil numbers again.

Here are some numbers for the Jetboil (and other canister stoves):

https://backpackinglight.com/lightweight_canister_stoves_review_summary/

From their chart, it looks like Jetboil can boil a quart of water using about 11 grams of fuel.  That’s .39 ounce which is a little more than your .3 ounce, but that article is old and maybe Jetboil has improved their efficiency.  In any case, .3 or .39 ounce per liter is quite good!  I’ll have to do the numbers again for a Jetboil and see where we end up.

“Sometimes we want a boil if we’re using unfiltered water that was gathered not near the source. “

Or not.  All the stupid literature you see generated by this park or that department seems to have surveyed all recommendations, ever, and then added some time to each one.  “Bring your water to a boil”, “Boil for 2 minutes”, “Rolling boil for 3 minutes”, etc.

Pasteurization. It’s a thing.  It’s such a thing they named the process after the dead French guy who discovered it and it is used to treat your milk and many other foods.  You’re not trying to kill some extremophile bacteria that evolved to live at a volcanic vent 3 miles down in the Pacific Ocean.  You’re trying to kill or prevent reproduction of infectious, pathological organisms before you ingest them.  A fair bit of time at 140F does that.  Less time at 160F does, too.  Any time at 180F eliminates the risk.

Now, I can see the point of specifying “Rolling Boil” because many people can’t discern 140F from 180F.  The first bubbles to come out of solution aren’t steam, but are N2 and O2 coming out of solution, so that can confuse some people.  But 140F is the hottest you can touch momentarily and 180F is XX seconds longer over the same flame (60 to 100 to 140 to 180 are going to be similar times).  But if I’ve gotten to 180F or close to it, I’m done.  Time to make tea or coffee or hot chocolate.  No need to heat it further.  For many foods, it is also plenty hot enough to reconstitute food.  Other foods, like some pastas, really do better in hotter water.

And, although I too have often heated water for soup and hot drinks in part to avoid treating it, you might want to reconsider your treatment options.  A Steripen is quick and easy.  A gravity filter makes it easy to treat a lot of water.  Iodine is no effort once in camp, but it takes time and that requires pound-miles to treat on the trail (and some people like my wife don’t like the taste).

There are some tell tale signs of water temperature that can be used as a guideline.  The term fish eyes have been coined to estimate water temperatures in the 150-16 F range.  Here is a funny link that that tries to go develop finer resolutions to the various “eyes”.  Another “sign” is pot groan, as ti seems to be in the 180-200 F range.  Test it out on your cookware and you probably don’t need to bring a thermometer.  Best wishes.

Days 5 thru 10 show significant weight savings with the CC (from 3 ounces lighter up to 7 ounces lighter on day of resupply).  Ditto for last half of trip, days 14 thru 18.

So that’s a difference of 1.5 to 3.5 oz per person, assuming the math and all the variables are dead on.

Not enough to worry about IMO, considering you’re taking a head of cabbage.  ;^)

Go with whatever is most convenient.

With canister stove and a HX pot (i.e. JB) you should be able to boil 8 cups per day with 20 grams (0.7oz) of fuel, and less at altitude because the boiling point is lower… subtract 2°F from 212 for each 1000ft above sea level. A 220g canister should easily suffice, especially if you’re not boiling water for breakfast on Day One and will be resupplying on Day Ten.

Greg……If you have not checked this REVIEW out it may help you in your dilemma…..

The Soto WindMaster

https://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-soto-windmaster-worlds-lightest-gas.html

Bob, yes, probably not enough to worry about weight-wise when it’s split up between two people.  On the other hand, the reason I’m nitpicking over ounces is because we take a head of cabbage!  Gotta make up for that dead weight somehow  ;-)

Actually, the main reason I posted was because I was surprised to see that alcohol had a weight advantage, after having read the opposite.  Admittedly, our situation is a little different because of not being able to dump the used canister at resupply.

I just redid the numbers using the Jetboil numbers and adjusted the alcohol down to 2 fluid ounces per day (instead of the overkill 3 ounces I was using) and it’s basically a wash.  Alcohol starts out a couple ounces heavier, but becomes lighter by the 4th day and gets progressively lighter after that.  So it’s pretty much a coin toss.

Thanks for the great feedback everyone!

Greg, it sounds like you are using a 12/10 stove. What’s pot and cone are you using? The efficiency is quite impressive.

Agree, weight will be less at the end with alcohol, and I also like the quiet operation of alcohol.

The other weight factor that I didn’t see in any of your analysis is the weight of the stove and cone.  I have a Jetboil Sol Ti that weighs 10 ounces WITHOUT a fuel canister.  My whole CC setup, including the stove, cone, 640 ml pot (with lid), measuring cup, mini-Bic, and stuff sack only weighs 5.78 ounces – more than a quarter pound (sounds more impressive than 4 ounces) of real savings for the entire trip.

Kevin, good point about the weight of the set up.  I hadn’t considered that initially because I was comparing Pocket Rocket to CC.  Pocket Rocket is quite light, less than 3 ounces, about the same weight as the cone stove set up.  But the Jetboil will weigh more.

I need to resurrect my Ti pot.  I stopped using it because the non-stick coating started looking funky.  Maybe I’ll just sandblast (or sand paper) the non-stick coating completely off.  If I do that, the pot itself weighs 5.5 ounces.  The cone and its stove together weigh 2.1 ounces.  So that’s a pretty light set up, 7.6 ounces for stove, cone, and pot.

Bob, the quiet operation of alcohol is nice.  Jetboil’s speed, though, would have that noise going for only a couple of minutes.  (But do I want to spend a hundred bucks on another stove set up…?)

Matthew, I suspect you’re right about the 12/10. (It has 12 holes on the outside, and probably 10 in the inside, so 12/10  ;-) The cone is the one that’s designed for a 1.7 liter pot.  Cone is 6 1/2 inches tall and the opening for the pot is roughly 6 inches in diameter.

Hiking Jim applies his usual analytical rigorour to the alcohol vs  gas issue.  And helpfully he includes a caldera cone,  jetboil and a non integrated windshield gas stove in his comparison.  He reaches much the same conclusions as above but also identifies the tipping points where gas beats alcohol:

https://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.co.nz/2014/09/which-is-lighter-alcohol-or-gas_14.html?m=1

As you are starting with 2 x 8oz (220g)  canisters, why not take one 450g canister instead. which saves some dead weight?  Not my figures but 2 x 226g – 1 x 195g gives a saving of 57g – almost 2 oz.

Edit – you should also save $ or two.

Edit -Thanks Bob – I should have said 220g not ml. A 220g canister actually has a volume of about 1 litre.

I don’t know if you’re considering this in your calculations, but a fluid ounce of denatured alcohol weighs 0.817 oz imperial.

What made me think of this was Mark’s post with the ‘220ml’ reference which, of course, he and we know is 220g. However, it reminded me how easy it is to make a math boo-boo when we’re dealing with one fuel that is usually measured by weight and another that is usually measured by volume.