stoves: how I decided alcohol is a weight saver (vs canister) for a long trip

Mark,

I could do that.  However, now the decision is between Jetboil (which I would have to buy) versus Caldera Cone.  With Jetboil I would need to take only one 220 gram canister.  If the Jetboil burn figures are correct, one canister would be enough for 9 days.  Then pick up another 220 gram canister at the resupply point.

Bob,

Yes, I did the boil test using fluid ounces, but converted that measurement to ounces of weight.  So I’m comparing apples to apples when comparing the weight of the canister to weight of the alcohol.

JB’s 10g per quart is reliable and in my experience a bit conservative. Should have a surplus of 40-50g after 9 days using a little less than 20g/day, especially if employing all the conservation measures mentioned earlier.

… or use ESBIT.

Something seems way off with your calculations for  how much water you need to boil.. I take one 4oz canister for an 8 day solo trip. I think I calculated about 12g/day conservatively for boiling 3 cups of water per day, based on MSR’s published info and my own experience of weighing canisters before and after a trip.. I heat up a cup or two of  water for coffee in the mornings (not boil), and I cook (rehydrate in a pot, sometimes requiring some simmering) meals that I dehydrate myself. This doesn’t leave me with much extra, but I can always use the markings on the MSR canister to see how much I have used, and go with cold coffee in mornings if necessary.

So I would expect to bring one 8oz canister, not 2. More efficient use of fuel if you are cooking for two anyway.

… or use ESBIT.

Very good suggestion in this context….

19g of Esbit will boil 4 cups of water. Boil time is going to be around 14 minutes… not too bad.

I’ve boiled — full, rolling boil — 4 cups using 17.5g of Esbit, so 19g is the number I would use in order to be a bit conservative and for convenience, since one could use one 14g tab plus one 5g tab for the job.

For 9 full days the total fuel weight (including packaging) would be 12 oz (340g).

Esbit with CC is the clear winner on weight!

I suggested Esbit, got this,

“I’ve never used Esbit and probably won’t go down that path as it’s pricier than alcohol and hikers have said it’s stinky.”

Ken, are bears attracted to the fishy smell of esbit?

Oops, I forgot you mentioned Esbit and it has been rejected already.

IMO when you consider all the other costs associated with a trip, stove fuel price is pretty insignificant.

The smell is what it is and one can either abide it or not. Bit of a learning curve, yes, but it is hands-down the lightest system when fuel is carried (i.e. not wood).

asolthane,  Yes, I said if I go the Jetboil route, we would take one 220 g canister, not two.  That’s based on their published figures regarding boil time.

Based on our own history of usage, one 220 g canister lasts around 6 days.  That’s using a Pocket Rocket (PR).  So if we went with the PR, we would need more than one canister to get us to the resupply at Day 10.

However, the PR is no longer in the running.  It’s either the Cone stove or a new Jetboil.  As I mentioned earlier, we’re hoping to do a 6 or 7 day outing in the San Juan Mts, southwestern CO, next month.  If we do it, we’ll use the Cone stove.  That will give us a field test to accurately nail down fuel usage.

After that trip, I’ll decide whether to stick with the Cone or buy a Jetboil.

Bob, Ken, and Eric,

I agree that fuel cost for a trip is way down in the noise, insignificant compared to others costs like transportation to the trailhead.  So my “expensive” comment doesn’t apply.

Those weight figures are impressive, I’ll have to admit.  But boil time is twice as long as alcohol, and alcohol is more than twice as long as what we’re used to.  So that would be a big difference.  I’m thinking we can handle a 7 or 8 minute boil time, but jumping up to 14 minutes, I don’t know.

But going with 12 ounces of Esbit for 9 days instead of 16 ounces of alcohol–maybe that’s worth considering (although it amounts to just 2 ounces per person more weight.  It that amount of weight saving worth going up to a 14 minute boil time?)

I know this is blasphemy here, but the weight differences are so small that I would take whatever I was most comfortable with.  It seems to me that you are very comfortable with your CC alcohol setup.  You don’t need to purchase a new piece of gear and get comfortable with using it.  So, unless you find that your numbers for your CC are way off, it seems like the best way FOR YOU.

Stick with the cone and add a Starlyte stove. maybe the larger StarlytXL3

Larry & Dan, that’s what I’m thinking.  But I do want a field test (where I take a few notes) of the Cone because it’s been a few years since I’ve used it.  So that’s the plan.

Thanks again to all who responded here.  Good feedback and great ideas!

Have a great weekend everyone!!

Definitely a Caldera Cone with the most compatible alcohol stove if you want to use alcohol. That’s the most efficient route.

Eric B.

Dan. Don’t you know?

I stick with either my cone and alcohol stove or a canister. Love them both.

So that would be a big difference.  I’m thinking we can handle a 7 or 8 minute boil time, but jumping up to 14 minutes, I don’t know.

Other preferences and factors aside, this is dealt with simply by changing the order in which you do things when you arrive at camp.

Set up stove and put water on to boil first thing, make sure food is ready to prepare when the water boils, then pitch your tent and get sleeping gear ready.

Water is hot before you know it and you’ve wasted no time at all.

For me packing for the proposed trip I would start with a BRS-3000 and windshield (55g, 2oz) plus either

Option 1 – a 450g canister (645g 23oz) for a starting weight of 700g, 25oz. I find I use 30g per day for 2 people so on day 10 I would have used 300g of fuel reducing the carried weight to 400g with about 5 days fuel remaining so I would look to put a 100g canister in the drop. At the end you would have about 1 day in reserve and an empty canister weight of 290g.

Option 2 – You could start with a 230g and a 100g canister which would reduce the starting weight by 95g but you would arrive at the drop with only 1 day of fuel remaining and would need to pick up a 230g canister. At the end you would have about the same amount of fuel remaining and an empty canister weight of 345g.

For me option 2 is the choice as you would be carrying 95g less in the first 10 days followed by carrying 55g more for the remainder of the trip. Option 2 provides 10g more fuel carried so really nothing in the fuel weight between the two options.

Well I would do as some others suggest and either go with the BRS stove or with Esbit, or a hybrid. Jetboils seem too bulky, too much equipment! An advantage to Esbit not mentioned is that it completely disappears as you walk, so it is not just a weight issue but also one of bulk. That is in addition to the ability to micro-regulate what you carry. You could for instance take the canister, and then just throw in a few Esbits to make up for the rest of your need instead of getting trapped into the “stair-stepping” weight calculation problem.

However I would not use Esbits if I needed rolling boils.

I can see now that I am not a true gram weenie around here.  Two comments:

I used a MSR Windburner on a recent backpack. Granted it was only 4 days.  It has all the advantages of the Jetboil, but is also much more wind resistant, with a better handle and bowl.  There must be an advantage to fuel usage, although the larger burner surface area may offset that.  Hikin’ Jim would know.

Esbit is a great backup or bridge fuel.  I keep a couple of tabs just in case, but you could include this in the calculation of what you need before your drop, and then use it when you have some time and use the canister stove when you want to cook faster.

For my group of 3 on the recent backpack, we wanted to have two cook systems so we could bake while the main meal was prepared (We baked muffins and biscuits with the Esbit – using one of Jon’s Flat Cat Epicurian stoves).  That requires a little more weight because of the pan, and the separate pot (Caldera cone Ti-Tri Sidewinder with an Evernew 1.3L pot).  I  doubt the esbit would work with the Windburner, but it would certainly work with any other standard pot you would use with the BSR.

I usually take just the Sidewinder/Evernew kit with the Epicurean and Dan’s Zelph Starlyte stove, but we couldn’t take “fuel” on the ferry to Catalina and I only knew for sure they would have canisters. I assumed they would be OK with a few esbit tabs in my pack.  If you think you will have time to cook, I would recommend alcohol + esbit, or if you going to be in a hurry then the smallest canister/stove you can get by with + esbit.  It goes without saying that we all want to be on the upward spiral that Jardine describes, carry less >> hike longer >> need less food and fuel >> carry less.  My trips are usually with some scouts and not that long, but I’m totally on board with the philosophy.

There’s one thing that I might mention here. It was suggested that one take Esbit tabs to augment a canister stove, which would be a good idea. However, I’ve found that this won’t work very well if the stove is a Jetboil. I tried to make an alcohol stove work with a JB Sol cup, and it just didn’t do well. I’m thinking that the HX fins of the JB cup interfere with complete combustion of the alcohol flame. I didn’t try it with Esbit, as I didn’t want to gunk up the bottom of the cup and the HX fins. So while I believe that the JB pot with a BRS-3000T burner is very efficient, while also being quite light, I think it would be better to do the canister stove/Esbit shuffle with a standard (i.e. non-HX ) pot. My 2c…

I totally agree with Gary.  I would not want to gunk up the Windburner pot by trying to use esbit (or wood for that matter).  I was suggesting the Windburner as a better version of the Jetboil (albiet heavier than the Sol).  Esbit as a backup/supplement if you are using a regular pot.  Of course if you have a CC Ti-Tri you could also consider small sticks as a backup/supplement – if it’s allowed.  I have no idea if the BSR would work under a CC – or if the cone would even work on the shorter/wider pots.  Maybe upside down as a wind break?

Greg, what pot did you use for your tests (brand, volume, material, dimensions)? Any other factors (insulation under stove, etc.)? I too am impressed with the efficiency of your boil.

Back from a 7 day backpack in southwestern Colorado with updated field test results.  I’ll post them on a new thread.