Is a puffy really "critical" gear

It all depends on the trip location, forecast and length of trip. For short mid-summer trips in the Olympics with a dry forecast (ie. highly predictable and mild weather), I don’t carry a puffy or insulation layer (just long sleeve hiking shirt, wind shirt and Dri Ducks rain jacket). For the Rockies, where weather patterns are less predicable and afternoon thundershowers are common, a fleece, synthetic or down pullover vest provides a little bit of insurance in case you’re hiking for a few hours over a 12,000′ pass in cold windy conditions. For a high route like the WRHR with lots of time spent above treeline, a full pullover fleece or a puffy makes more sense.

I always have puffy. 5.9 oz of insurance.
Many cases of hypothermia occur at ordinarilly benign temperatures,
All it takes is water.

3 season, especially in the Sierra, I typically carry a Montbell Thermawrap.  I’m questioning it too though; sort of feel like it’s overkill these days.  I don’t get cold easily.  Thinking about ditching it this season in favor of a fleece vest.  Between a long sleeve base layer (Patagonia Tropic Comfort Hoody), a fleece vest, and a rain shell, I’m typically good.

I’ve never been cold enough on the move during 3 seasons to wear the Thermawrap while moving.  And if I was ever that cold in camp, I could use my sleeping bag while sitting around.

Lester, I lot of my backpacking has been in the Olympics and cascades. These conditions may have crated my bias towards not wanting one. For the wind river high route, which in doing solo, is where I want to have my gear dialed(will post a gear list soon on another post). The Colorado trail is the bulk of my experience in the Rockies, and only used my puffy 1 time out of 16 days on trail.  I’m considering getting a vest from goosefeet down as I think it will complement my hooded bag/fleece hoody better than a full puffy.

MB, this is exactly my justification for bringing one in the past. But couldn’t I just crawl into, or drape my sleeping bag over me if cold? Or are there cases where you would be hiking in all layers, including puffy, to avoid hyperthermia??

WISNER, what you’re describing is exactly where my heads at. I hiked he JMT in late September, and only wore my jacket for short periods breaking camp or taking some photos at night before sleep. I’m highly considering a light vest since it will probably be under 4 oz. and I can probably get extra use in the winter as an extra ski layer

I typically carry a down puffy, but I don’t think it’s critical.  It’s a comfort piece.  Honestly, the biggest hypothermia risk usually involves wind and cold rain, and it’s just not very useful in cold rain.  I did the Wind River High Route in early September and was glad I had a puffy, but my fleece was more useful.  We had some cold, snowy nights but I would have been fine without ther puffy.

If it’s chilly enough for you to feel cold when hanging around camp, then you want/need some sort of insulation layer. It doesn’t have to be a puffy, but a thin down puffy is the lightest way to carry some sort of insulation, certainly on a warmth-per-ounce measure. Especially after a full day of hiking until near sunset before I set up camp, my body is still in heat-shedding mode when it no longer needs to be right as the evening temp drop kicks in, and I can get chilled so I’m glad to have it and consider it “essential” in the sense that I could survive without it but it provides a basic creature comfort. It doubles as part of my pillow.

I guess this starts getting off into the weeds a bit but….

I’ve never worn a puffy while moving, not in 3 season weather anyway.  And that’s including hours in near freezing rain/sleet.  As long as I’m moving, I’m good.  In this regard, I actually find fleece better; it wets out without losing as much of it’s insulating ability and feels better to the touch.

So what if I had to stop moving for some reason?  That’s what a shelter and sleeping bag are for.  So I don’t really see the hypothermia risk in 3 season Sierra conditions.  A fleece vest, long sleeve base, gloves, beanie, and rain shell pretty much have me covered into the high 20s as long as I’m moving.  I’m shifting towards thinking the traditional long sleeve puffy is more of comfort gear than critical gear.

Why skimp?  My fleece is 6 ounces, my jacket is 10.  And I’m beginning to feel the fleece vest is slightly more versatile/gets worn more.

But to be clear, I’m really talking summer in the High Sierra and CA three season hiking…if such a thing really exists.

Or are there cases where you would be hiking in all layers, including puffy, to avoid hyperthermia?

Anywhere above treeline in the Winds if it’s cold, wet and breezy. Imagine waking up from Camp at Baker Lake were it was 25F overnight and then hiking over Downs Mountain in the morning with a few inches or fresh snow or graupel on the ground, overcast skies, temps in the 30’s and windy.

After moving to the PNW in 2010 I was very surprised to find how moderate and predicable the weather is in summer compared to CO and WY. I’ve been snowed on too many times in the Rockies in mid summer to do a high route there without a good insulation layer.

I, likewise, have never hiked in my puffy. I would much prefer a fleece for hiking, but I very rarely do that either. The fleece does provide a little insurance for cold and wet conditions though.

I often carry the Montbell Ex-Lite (no hood) when I expect temps below 40* F. Not only does it provide warmth around camp, but it can supplement a bag that may not be quite warm enough for expected overnight temps. It has saved me on a few occasions. I certainly wouldn’t pack a puffy with a shell heavier than a 7d though.

But to the point WISNER makes, a slightly heavier synthetic allows you to wear it while exerting yourself. It also dries a lot faster and provides some warmth even when wet. Not so with the down.

Matt-

I am progressively trending towards your way of thinking too, and ironically it’s that UL KUIU fleece top that’s getting me there.  I do bring a puffy in winter, but I’m finding that in shoulder seasons, my River Run Hoodie supplemented by the KUIU (worn under the Voormi) and Luke’s rain jacket keep me warm enough at rest in temps down to the upper 20’s, particularly if I’m using a buff or lightweight beanie and gloves.  If I get too cold in camp, I’m pretty sure my Nunatak Arc30 (overstuffed) will keep me from hypothermia.

Now, I have to qualify this by saying that if I was doing a shoulder season hike of a week or so in a place like the Winds or San Juans, you can’t trust a forecast that far out….and I’d probably bring the puffy.  Or maybe a more robust fleece.

I’ve only done a few weekend trips in what some of you probably consider mild weather (40s and up at night), so feel free to tell me where my logic is off in the following.

Don’t yet own a fleece, I bought a puffy for camping and it works fine. But yeah, I really “only” used it at camp, but if I’m awake 16 hours and I’m not hiking more than 8 hours, I have at least 8 hours of sitting around wanting to be warm. No way a sub-10 oz fleece would be warm enough to sit around in with wind. Puffy is much lighter and smaller for more warmth. While hiking I just started out in the puffy and then took it off and just wore my long sleeve base layer. I actually just ordered mid weight fleece but only plan to take it if it’s gonna be mid 40s or below just as extra insulation (below the puffy). Someone correct me if my thinking is off on this. I can’t seem to find anything online talking about layering a fleece and a puffy but it seems like the best way to use the same gear for a larger range of temperatures?

It seems to me like there are three choices:

1. No insulating layer at all.
2. Puffy
3. Fleece

The first option might work, especially for through hiking, but I personally would find it wanting. Setting up camp could be chilly. Side trips to the tops of mountains could be cold and inconvenient (I would have to drag my sleeping back with me, and then wrap it around me). But I suppose on some trips it might work.

For day hikes in the summer, I carry fleece and no puffy. It weighs more, but is more comfortable and durable. On backpacking trips (when I’m counting ounces) I do the opposite. The puffy (a synthetic) is just a lot warmer for the weight, giving me a much larger comfort range. But if you don’t own a puffy, or can’t afford a good one, fleece is a solid choice. It just weighs more.

For folks thinking about experimenting with using/bringing a fleece vest in lieu of a puffy for those not so cold but somewhat chilly and/or wet and somewhat cold trips, I would check out this:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/midlayer-recommendations/#post-3595356

And apply that info to the above. Would be easy enough to cut off the sleeves of one of these. A hot knife might work best?

To add a little more if you read that linked post.  Think of the Nikwax Pump liner/Paramo system.

These PP “undergarments” are fleeced on the inside, smooth woven on the outside. Just low enough surface energy to act like it has a DWR, but permanently so (until gunked up with oils, but that is easy enough to remedy with hot water and strong’ish, but relatively inexpensive, alkaline cleaners like Washing Soda, Oxy Clean, etc).

This is exactly how a Nikwax pump liner is set up/works.  Except that it’s fleeced on the outside, smooth on the inside, and has a DWR (a very short lived, wax based one).  (Then it’s combined with a windjacket that is moderately rain resistant and lowish CFM).  Just turn the PP shirt inside out when using it like a Pump liner.

But when you factor in the much lower density of PP vs polyester, it’s lower thermal conductivity, it’s very high hydrophobicity, and it’s permanent DWR like surface nature (low surface energy), it’s works really well for especially cool and wet.   

Sometimes you can get these heavyweight inner fleeced baselayers/”undergarments” from military surplus places for ridiculously cheap.  Imo, they excel much more as midlayers than as baselayers, especially since the stink and oil gunk factor is much less for the latter use.  (especially if you use a baselayer that contains at least moderate amounts of merino, alpaca, or the like).

Ah ha the Peleton 97! Good to hear from those of us that have it.

G’day there Fivestar you Peletoner, you!

It really is a champion little top. That with a Borah gear down vest is my static warmth for about 3 degrees C. I go the Borah jacket and the Peleton down to 0C static easily.

Never used down for active until recently when I used the Borah vest over a highly breathable fishing shirt (and shorts) under the Columbia Outdry Ex Featherweight (another champion) at about 2C-the temp dropped unexpectedly. Walked in the dark for an hour or so and into the morn 8 am before it was too warm and had  to take it off. Happy to carry it at 100 grams and no space (basically) taken in my rucksack.

Agree with J R:  “a thin down puffy is the lightest way to carry some sort of insulation, certainly on a warmth-per-ounce measure”.

In the 1970’s I typically just carried a down vest… then drifted away from them. Recently I’ve been reassessing the vest and think maybe we were on to something back then. I always carry a 100wt fleece. Couple that with a light down vest under a shell, gloves and hat, and I’m good for most of my backpacking.

I’m a middle-aged lady who literally wears a puffy every single day in my Southern California life (cold morning scooter rides to work, cold air conditioning at work, cold evenings outside after work) and I don’t consider a puffy critical gear at all. Not even when backpacking in So Cal.

When I go backpacking I hike all day. Then I set up my tent and get inside. I eat my dinner in my tent and then I go to bed. In the morning I eat in my tent again, then I put everything away and start hiking. There’s literally no time where I need a puffy.

In general if I am cold, I will wear my rain gear and any number of my other layers underneath it. My other layers do not include any other kind of down vest or fleece sweater or anything like that.

Instead of a puffy I have a 45 degree Jacks R Better wearable quilt. I only sometimes wear it. If I go on a trip where I sit around in camp I will definitely wear it. I use it to extend the warmth of my 20 degree quilt so that I can be as warm and toasty as I am at home. It weighs about the same as a puffy and can do more than one thing, cover more of my body.

i tend to head for a particular high lake basin, and stay awhile. as john denver sang, “talk to god & listen to the casual reply”. i do not seek to “hike all day”. i enjoy lounging in camp. i sit in awe of the sierra granite, the “alpenglow”. it’s the finest house of worship for me. and it’s very conducive to the Puffy! my uberlight Nunatak JMT jacket served me well in Miter Basin in early October on a recent trip, in the eve and AM. and i never get tired of down ;)

Nicely said Brian H…

I tend to switch it up personally. But since my typical hiking season is mostly opposite of many of yours (mid fall through winter to early spring), I often do need to bring a puffy, because the nights are long and dark, and can sometimes get pretty cold. Cold by Canadian, Alaskan, or even Montana standards, not so much. But I actually look forward to the rare, near and slightly below 0*F lows/weather–mostly because usually there are very few other people out there!  So quiet, so still, so lovely.  Perfect introvert space/time.

I’ve found that something along the lines of Patagonia’s Nano Air Light does a good job of providing an active moving layer AND an insulating layer.  I used to carry a traditional “puffy” and a light fleece and while that opens a few more options (like combining them), for most trips the active layer/puffy works just fine.