Is a puffy really "critical" gear

Hey all.

I find a down jacket great for social trips, or for giving me something extra to sleep in if pushing temp rating of my bag/quilt but I’m a little surprised to not hear more folks using some sort of synthetic puffy? My Nano Puff vest and Micro Puff jacket are two of my most worn garments, can both can be worn while active, though I mostly only wear the vest while on the move.

This past winter I made myself a vapor barrier style vest that is super trail trashy but has become one of my favorite pieces of gear for running in cold wet weather. It’s a single layer of primaloft inside a plastic shell. Zero breathability, zero water absorption. There’s no staying dry while running, so I figured why fight it? I have not tried it for backpacking yet but that might be another application (in wet weather).

Nice to have you back on BPL Jacob.

“Nice to have you back on BPL Jacob.”

Yes, likewise.  We should go do some miles.

I rather skimmed the previous replies, so hopefully this isn’t redundant. I went back to fleece for packrafting, because it holds its loft better under pressure of PFD / drysuit, etc, and when soaked. I quit wearing a puffy jacket guiding in the summer as well because I was tired of wearing out expensive, fragile gear (though I still carry one in a drybag in my pack). It’s not about critical items, but about critical needs and the systems that meet them; that’s how I’d approach it. In a winter backpacking class I taught last semester for our university, however, I framed things that way and people proposed to bring all kinds of terrible, unsuitable stuff, so I can see in practical terms why if you’re trying to educate people, you have to be unequivocal with terms like “critical” or “essentials.”

My Eddie Bauer “Down Sweater” puffy is strictly for in-camp use, either evenings and mornings or also to boost my sleeping bag warmth.

Once on the PCT above Kennedy meadows on an AUGUST 26 F. night I wished for my puffy in my Western Mountaineering 30 F. down bag. I had everything on but my GTX parka and had my bag cinched down to a “blowhole”.  I just managed to stay warm enough for a good night’s sleep.

That night convinced me to:

1. Always take a puffy, if only a down vest.
2. Get my WM Megalite overfilled (now it’s a decent 20 F. bag.)
3. Buy and carry a light fleece balaclava (It got down to 16 F. that morning in that high valley!)

“This past winter I made myself a vapor barrier style vest that is super trail trashy but has become one of my favorite pieces of gear for running in cold wet weather. It’s a single layer of primaloft inside a plastic shell. Zero breathability, zero water absorption. There’s no staying dry while running, so I figured why fight it? I have not tried it for backpacking yet but that might be another application (in wet weather).”

Hmm, there is a certain kind of logic to the above, but wouldn’t it make sense to do something like egg crate CCF foam, covered in a very light, very breathable, very quick drying fabric.

That way, you increase air convection and comfort levels, but you still have that CCF foam that will provide insulation no matter how much you sweat.  While you’re running, have the point/raised side towards your skin for maximum comfort, and during cool down, turn it over for maximum warmth.

or. use bubble wrap material if you want light weight

Figured I’d chime in a little on my insulative preferences.  I don’t use down anything personally all my insulating garments and quilts are synthetic. Like others  I sort of separate my insulation systems into “active” and “static”  or “traveling” and “camping”. While active at about 30F  I wear only 2 lightweight baselayers plus Houdini. Between 0F and 30F I add the Hooded Thermal weight Capilene or Nano Air Light while active. For “static” in camp insulation nighttime temps down to 30F I bring one Torrid Apex Hooded Jacket. If it’s going to be below 30F I also bring the Patagonia Nano Air Light Hooded to double up the Midlayer while static or sleeping.  At 30F and below I also pack  “puffy” pants, the nano air light pants plus my usual 2 lightweight base layers to wear in camp.

i would like to try Justin Ws idea of fashioning a lightweight vest out of some Apex in between 2 sewn together sleeveless lightweight base layers… seems like it could be a lightweight solution for the shoulder seasons…maybe I’ll get crafty this summer! Good way to repurpose  some older base layers…

No offense to anyone, but I laughed so hard reading the comments about using egg crate CCF or bubble wrap! Just when I thought it couldn’t get more trail trashy than wearing plastic!

The bubble wrap might actually work, but of course, you lose the ability to compress it… well, you could have a lot of fun compressing it once, ha! The CCF, I just can’t imagine wearing something like that. Here are a couple of pics of my first version of the vest I made. There were a few prototypes prior to this to get the pattern dialed in.

The shell is 4 mil polyfilm. The insulation is Primaloft Gold. I heat bonded all the seams so there is no stitching. At the bottom of the vest there are two small holes to allow it to be compressed. It weighs 4.7 oz and compresses down to about 6x8x1 inches. This allows me to stowe it in my running vest if the weather changes. It has no zipper (this would be a cool addition) and is side-closure instead using velcro. This has the benefit of allowing for some adjustability in the girth. I put some random artwork on the inside of the panel to see how it would hold up (just okayish, the insulation rubs it off if wearing a running vest or pack).

This vest works great for its intended purpose. The first run I did with it, immediately I noticed “my shoulders are cold” because it blocks all air movement so the “normal” feeling of the air blowing through your clothing while running is totally different while wearing a non-breathable garment (as one would expect). When the wind gusts, there’s no chill, just “pressure”. It took a little getting used to but it’s exactly what I had wanted. I wore it all of this rainy winter and it has become such a go-to piece of gear for me. The longest run I did with it was 26 miles. Even though I was wet underneath it, I stayed warm in the temp range of 45-50 ish degrees. I have not had a chance to try it in cooler weather but suspect for me I could go lower. Above 50º, I overheat pretty easily if running. Hiking might be another story though (again, wet and windy conditions).

I wear a light synthetic or merino shirt under it, and lightweight arm sleeves if it’s cool enough.

Craig, Casey – thanks guys. Good to see you here. I might be doing a mini trip in the San Bernadino Forest with Adam C. and David W. sometime later this month on the off chance either of you might be available. Feel free to get in touch with me, my email is still the same.

I have summer school this summer (bleh!) so my nights sleeping outside will be limited. Starting grad school in the Fall. Woohoo!

Z-rest as emergency CCF “vest”.

The story is I got caught in the rain on a trip. I had a vinyl emergency poncho but it was shredded by the chaparral in about 5 minutes and I had to hike another 5 or more miles to get to a place to camp. I got soaking wet. I avoided hypothermia because my sleeping bag was dry and warm, but in the morning I had to hike 6 miles with soaking wet clothes. I made dual use of my z-rest and my polycryo ground sheet.

Here’s my JRB wearable quilt. This thing is way better than a puffy for lounging around in camp watching the alpen glow or whatever. It covers my knees when standing and most of my legs when sitting.

Diane, ingenious use of z-rest! That piece of gear is multi-use indeed!

I agree with those who would carry a puffy and then leave some other, heavier per ounce insulating layer (or two) behind. Down has the lightest warmth per weight ratio. I gave up on fleece long ago–even though I understand its advantages. Too heavy. I usually wear very little insulation when hiking. I want warmth for camp. Lastly, a down puffy could serve as a decent backup in some never yet happened circumstance (wet sleeping bag.)

Also: my puffy makes a fabulous pillow.

I’m not a hundred percent certain, but I think two other of our BPL family members, one from Japan, and Darylx2, have also talked about using CCF foam in situations where they would sweat a lot anyways, but needed a way to stay warm.

I suggested what I suggested, because I know that because I run hot, I would be bloody uncomfortable wearing plastic vapor barrier liner in anything but the most extreme cold temps, and that it would make me sweat even more.  You can get the benefits of that general premise, without the discomfort and extra, excess sweating.

Diane rocking the Z-rest–nice thinking/solution.