Heading out with some non-UL folks…..gulp…..

Honesty is the only thing that may work, and is almost definitely the only thing that will make you feel good.  It won’t be fun conversation, to start, but it may end well.  And if it doesn’t perhaps bowing out of the trip is warranted.  Just my opinion.

edit: just realized you said is was *your* trip, so bowing out is probably not possible.  Sounds like an unfortunate spot to be in given that you work with this person. Hope this works out for you.

If you showed her a picture of what I look like after my first solo venture on the CDT carrying  A 72 pound backpack she would probably stay home. LOL

Seriously though, what I was lacking when I started was information and knowing where to find information about how other, more experienced hikers managed.  If you could show her a little about what people on this forum did that might help. I got a lot of ideas from Walking with Wired.

She just texted me…her pack weighs 60 pounds!!!!!!!!

This is actually pretty funny, because if she weren’t so I-know-everything, I’d be able to help her out. Part of me just wants to watch her suffer….is that so wrong?

that’s pretty funny

you must have some extra lightweight gear, let her borrow it

jerry that’s the point – she’s one of those people who knows everything – I can’t tell her anything.  thus my guilty enjoyment of watching her carry 60lbs over 4k of elevation gain in the first 6 miles

Do the hike your way, with your gear. Let her watch you not suffer! The others who want to learn about UL will, whether she chooses to or not. But I think she will learn something whether she chooses to admit it or not!

Regardless of what other people bring, you should not have to carry their gear.
Example: Tent- Tell her that a 6 person tent is not a backpacking tent. The biggest I ever heard of was a 4 person. A single 2 person and a 4 person or three two person tents will work and probably be lighter. (Use the extra space for gear storage.)
First aid- Everyone carries what he or she needs. A couple band-aids, duct tape and some fuel works for me (along with diabetes supplies.)
Hand-held radios-Well, you said it, they don’t work where you are going. It doesn’t make sense to carry gear just to carry gear.

We want pictures!

But on a more serious note, I hope that she does not make the trip miserable for you or, even worse, hurt herself.  I wouldn’t be surprised if she bails in the early stretch of the hike, though maybe that would be too much like admitting you were right.

Whatever you do, stick to your guns and make it clear you (and the others, hopefully) are not going to carry her gear for her.

I hope at least the 60 lbs includes her food and water.

Some folks have to learn things the hard way.  I think it’s fine to enjoy her suffering, as long as you do it quietly.

My suggestion is to toss a spare shelter in the trunk of your car if you have one available, and an empty duffel bag.  Throw a printout of your year list in your pack.  At the trailhead, make a point of going over the map of the trail with everyone.  Point out the big climbs.  Ask her to heft your fully-loaded pack.  When she squawks about how unsafe you are without X,Y, and Z, show her your gear list and point out that you have what you need to be safe, warm, well-fed and comfortable.

If she gets the hint, well and good, you have a lighter tent she can borrow (likely the heaviest thing she has), and a duffel to put all the crap she doesn’t need along.  If she doesn’t get the hint, let it pass and get on with the backpacking.  Somewhere part-way up that 4k elevation gain she may begin to notice that you’re looking a lot more comfortable than she feels.  Be sure to act real solicitous when she’s gasping for breath and asking for another rest break.  But don’t offer to carry anything for her.

In camp you won’t need to say anything about how you’re just as comfortable with 20% of the stuff, just be comfortable and let that sink in.  If she broaches the subject of your gear vs. hers, by all means have the discussion.  But let her broach the subject.  If she’s happy with what she’s carrying then let her carry it.  For decorum’s sake just try to keep from snickering too loudly on the steep hills.

Walt

It may be difficult but being honest with her will be the best thing for the entire group. Let her carry whatever she wants but allowing her to push her gear upon others is unacceptable. Obviously you and your hiking friend already have everything you need. Really the issue will be with the two new people. You may offer them alternate gear to what the “know it all” is pushing and let them choose. It will be a learning experience either way. I’d assume from your description y’all are doing the south rim, which means you’ll have to pack in your own water. Hopefully that 60lb pack is with water or she’s in for a world of hurt.

It’s like my mom always told me when we went pumpkin patching: only pick what you can carry back. This person sounds frustrating, especially from an UL perspective. I don’t know how close you are with this person, but I would just be blunt. And to soften the blow, tell them your pack can only carry X lbs. comfortably, so sorry but no, you will not carry her things.

HYOH

“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest”

Paul Simon – the Boxer

This is definitely where you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink.  Bill and I tried to educate a couple that said they wanted to learn how to backpack, but the husband had done one or two trips as a youngster. Basically, anything we said got poo-pooed.  However, when he was huffing and puffing, and slowing down the entire group, the point got very, very made.

The trip was fraught with challenge for me, and I learned from that trip to never take noobs out in the woods.  Hopefully, the newbies on your trip will look at you, look at her, then say, I want to do it Jen’s way.  If the know-it-all keeps trying to dump her gear off on other people, point out how much more likely injuries are from carrying too much weight.  I like the idea of carrying your gear list.

As for the 3 pound first-aid kit, what got me to cut back on first-aid was envisioning various scenarios, and realizing that either I could make do with 3 band-aids instead of 64, or that the problem would be so serious that no amount of bandage material would help.  Being medically trained, I was all set to carry sutures and other stuff that I have access to, and knowledge to use them.  Fortunately, common sense prevailed.  Maybe, if she insists, a frank discussion about what she is picturing as an event, and best-case/worst-case discussion will help her to realize that it isn’t necessary to carry an expedition kit for a 2 day trip?

Is she a strong backpacker?  I have known a couple of really fit people that humped along huge packs pretty well.

You could leave her in your dust and wait on her at the top of your 4K foot climb.  There is nothing more sobering than watching someone make a climb look effortless as you struggle to keep up.

Now is the time to set your limits.  Tell her:

1.  Either she will have to walk back alone if she cannot complete the hike,
2. or she will have to unpack and leave gear along the way that she cannot carry,
3. or she will have to stay home.

Don’t let her sabotage your trip.  Be firm. If you think she will agree to 1. or 2. and then get angry out there, don’t take her.

Just say no. I wouldn’t try to dissuade her from carrying whatever she wants to carry, but when it comes to insisting on others packing stuff she sees as essential (radios and combat FAK’s), I think you should put your foot down. I couldn’t handle backpacking with a bully who wants to be in control of everything. Better to tell her now it’s not going to work than to let her spoil the outing for everyone else.

It’s usually men who are the proud jack-asses that want to pack everything. I’ve hiked with a number of them and I never try to  talk them into light or UL unless they ask. I just tell them up front that if they can’t keep up I’ll leave them behind.

Consider her just another small annoyance that you have to work around, like mosquitoes. She has to carry her own pack.

Enjoy your hike and remember that she doesn’t have to know that you’re sometimes laughing at her and not always with her.

I’m sure you’ve thought of this, but have a plan in mind for what happens if someone wants to bail during the trip, and discuss it with everyone beforehand.

As long as everyone understands and agrees to the goals of the trip ahead of time (destinations, pace, miles, distance, camp vs trail hours, group gear, solo gear, etc.) and everyone can do the trip as planned, then extra weight on their backs should not be an issue. As you mentioned, if everyone else on the trip is slower than you, then take advantage of the extra time you have, by taking more photos, taking longer trail naps, doing day hikes, etc.

As bjc mentioned above, it’s your trip, so carry your own gear and explain to everyone why you’re not carrying an unnecessarily heavy 3 pound group item. Your UL skills and gear could easily inspire others on the trip, as long as you’re not pushy about it. A few years ago I did a similar trip to the Sawtooths with some old friends (traditional backpackers). While everyone laughed at my dinky home-made alcohol stove and raised their eyebrows at my “flimsy” TT Notch tent, one of the guys got a bunch of Zpacks gear and really lighted his gear later that Fall.

Jen, if you are leading the group, you make the rules.

If no one is in charge, then get ready for a drastic change in plans while on the trail.

dk is spot-on.

an attempt at shaping perspective:

i have spent more time hiking vicariously in recent years than overnighting in the backcountry…reading hiker journals/blogs & watching vids etc. and there is one rather profound observation i have heard several times from the most seasoned thru-hikers: “We tend to pack our fears”. I imagine there is truth in this whether your pack is 60 lbs or 20.

It sounds like the problem youre dealing with is the woman’s attitude, not her pack wt. Wisdom is seeing that youre unlikely to change her attitude; certainly the desire must come from her if its gonna happen.

As we all know, when group hiking sharing “community weight” is part of the paradigm. As group leader it is on you to articulate your ideas on this…especially if you are introducing a new paradigm.

Don’t forget what brings you together in the first place: backpacking. The gorgeous Big Bend sunrise belongs to the know-it-all heavyweight as much as the SUL halftoothbrushhandlehiker.

2 adoptees

2 noobs with hopefully open minds

1 holdout

Should be an excellent learning opportunity.

DO NOT CARRY HER GEAR

Cheers

I hike within groups. We are all self reliant. No group gear generally.