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“bear spray is very effective on humans..for a civilian using it on an aggressor- spray and then get the hell out of there”
No argument with this. But after the bear spray wears off I may still be alone in the woods with a bad guy. I would want a disabling follow-up. That’s where the gun comes in.
Saw a photo of a HUGE Kodiak Island brown bear that, when butchered it they found some .38 caliber pistol bullets in its head.
…then they found parts of a missing hunter in its stomach. True story. Guess the pistol bullets just pissed off the bear.
‘jus sayin’.
On the other hand, today there was news (here in Japan) about a brown bear attacking a 71yo man. The man pushed the bear over a ridge (with a pole or stick he had) and got away with minor scratches.
“True story.”
I’m doubting that. Sounds urban legend-ish to me.
“But after the bear spray wears off I may still be alone in the woods with a bad guy. I would want a disabling follow-up. That’s wear the gun comes in.”
Seems like a well placed dose of bear spray should concentrate his mind long enough to pick up a rock, or tree branch, if below timberline, and finish the job UL style.
“Sounds urban legend-ish to me.”
Me, too. It’d be more convincing if it were bear bells.
My wife had a patient came in, distraught, because the troopers had just informed her that her husband had been chomped (fatally) by a bear. There were some clipped furs at the site and he’d gotten off a .270 round (which is a nice round for long distances like for mountain goat and sheep, but considered pretty small for bear protection). Still, 2700 foot-pounds of energy isn’t at all shabby, if you have a chance to get off a few well-placed rounds. Which, clearly, you don’t always have a chance to do.
I don’t recall the bear ever being found (which tends to be on the front page).
there was a picture of a giant Kodiak that accompanied that “story” :)
I carried a S&W 69 with 305 grain hard casts (in a Razco holster) on our recent backcountry bison hunt- where the threat of a grizzly coming to the kill site was very real
“pick up a rock, or tree branch, if below timberline, and finish the job UL style”
It’s funny to think of a rock as an UL option but you are right. Carrying, say, a 2 lb gun for 50 miles is certainly heavier than carrying a rock a few feet for, probably, less than a minute. The rock is also easily recycled and doesn’t need cleaning or a license.
“S&W 69 with 305 grain hard casts”
If you are carrying for bear protection you need to know why this is important …
Admittedly an article from Ammo Land doesn’t inspire confidence that one’s about to read an unbiased article but it does provide links to news articles about the individual incidents.
I own guns but don’t carry while backpacking. If I did I would take the Ruger 380 LCP. The following is why I don’t choose to carry the extra weight. If you are not interested stop reading now and save yourself a minute of your time. Even in the ultra low probability you actually find yourself in a situation with a deranged lunatic he or she will have the upper hand as the ambusher. Probably will sit with you and make small talk and get your comfort level way up right before shooting you between the eyes. Unless you have your gun pointed at him or her right as they decide to go all freakazoid you are going to lose. In my youth I was military and infantry trained. I forget the effectiveness of an ambush but it is dang near 100 percent. Regretfully the deck is stacked against the good guy in this situation even if the good guy is well armed. Thankfully it’s just a fear that is very very very remote from ever happening in the backcountry. Randall Lee Smith used the befriend you technique to kill and wound hikers and fisherman on the AT in Virginia. I have never heard of anybody saving themselves from a Randall Lee Smith with a gun in the backcountry. Basically you could have been holding a sawed off shotgun in your hand and ole Randall still would have killed you dead. Simply because he got to determine when to strike and was highly motivated to strike. Our chosen hobby is awesome in the fact that you are much safer from this type of violence while traveling in the wilds than you are sleeping in your bed in your house. But it’s your hike so take whatever gets you out there. I catch flack for my camp chair. I just don’t understand why anyone would leave a backpackers chair out of their gear list.
https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/state/california/article213848289.html
recent case of someone killed – tent camping in California state park
very rare
probably carrying a gun wouldn’t have helped
several other people shot but not killed
you carry a chair backpacking?
that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard of
(thinking of several other people that carry chairs : )
“Bear story
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https://www.truthorfiction.com/giantbear/
just provin’”
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Also proving that editors continue to be in demand. Wow, what lousy writing!
urban legend
Jim Urban?
just coincidence?
Just sharing some personal experience about OC/Bear spray so folks don’t have an unrealistic expectation of what it will provide.
I’ve been sprayed with OC spray twice (in training) but never with bear spray which deploys at a greater volume and velocity.
The first time, was with a conical mist pattern where my face was completely saturated. Conical mist pattern is probably more similar to bear spray than a stream pattern is, but I’m not familiar with all bear spray manufacturers so I could be wrong.
For humans, OC spray is a form of pain compliance. Some people are more sensitive to it than others. I’m definitely on the more sensitive side of the spectrum. After I was sprayed the first time, I had to conduct a felony arrest (again, training) and handcuff a role player. In my experience, even though I was in pain, I was able to draw my training weapon, prone out the role player, reholster, and handcuff them.
After about a minute, my eyes began to involuntarily close and I had to physically peel one eye open to continue on. This lasted for another 45 minutes to an hour.
For another 2ish hours after that, I felt pain but could otherwise function okay.
I’ve had to spray someone in self defense. That person was unaffected by OC spray.
All of my coworkers have been sprayed with OC. A handful of them are unaffected by OC spray.
All this to say, just because the person has been sprayed does not mean that they will be incapacitated immediately, if at all.
My bear spray specifically says “not for use on humans.” Any OC spray has a minimum and maximum safe/effective distance on humans. Too far away and the spray won’t reach the face. Too close and there’s the risk of actual eye injury from what is known as the “hydraulic needle effect.” If you are going to deploy something that states it should not be used on humans, you’d better be sure that is your best/only resort as you may find yourself in civil court.
Before anyone responds with “better to be judged by 12 than carried by six,” forgive me, but that’s a loser’s mindset. It’s not an either/or scenario and one can win both in a fight and in court with some training and education. If you’re concerned enough to consider carrying a weapon for defense, then you need to spend the time to get trained and educated on how to best defend yourself in a way that is both effective and legally defensible.
A little maturity and situational awareness can go a long way. Many assaults are avoidable. Study conflict avoidance and have the maturity to shelve your ego and walk away.
For the assaults that are unavoidable, look for the “shark bump.” I’ve spent dozens (> 100?) hours studying officer involved shootings and assaults, many have video. We do this in an attempt to see if our training is environmentally correct, legally defensible, and uses the least amount of force in an attempt to limit injury and liability.
In most if not every case, the assailant will “shark bump” the victim before the attack. This is usually posturing, verbally threatening, and exhibiting pre-fight indicators.
The take away from this is that there is almost always a warning, and it’s in your best interest to recognize it for what it is, create distance, and prepare yourself for an attack. It amazes me how many people will allow for people to close in on them in dangerous situations out of some need to not be impolite.
As an example, my kid had to go to an ER and the hospital is in a bad part of town. Once we were discharged, it was late at night and the parking lot was not well lit. We had a shady looking person try to approach us in the parking lot with “hey do you know where X is?” My response was “No thank you! No thank you! No thank you!” as I put distance between us and him. He called me an “f’n a-hole,” which is not incorrect, but I’m not a tour guide and I’m not letting anyone approach my family or me in those conditions.
If someone is giving you the heebie jeebies, trust your gut instinct and do not let them get close to you. Especially in a wilderness setting, you have a right to some personal space and to ask for people to not invade it. That may be five or twenty feet depending on the circumstances. If you’ve asked for someone to stay away and they insist on ignoring the request, that’s your opportunity to assume a defensive posture.
The conditions I’ve mentioned above are not likely to happen on a hike and it’s likely much safer there than the front country. I think once you’ve put some distance between you and the TH, your larger concerns should be environmental and terrain more than people or animals, but we’ve had a few fatalities here in the PNW, with two confirmed by mountain lions in 2018.
HYOH and carry whatever makes sense to you.
very interesting post Ian
“I’ve spent dozens (> 100?) hours studying officer involved shootings and assaults, many have video. We do this in an attempt to see if our training is environmentally correct, legally defensible, and uses the least amount of force in an attempt to limit injury and liability.”
That’s how we should respond to shootings by police, not jump to find a policeman to prosecute and be frustrated when this doesn’t happen.
“We had a shady looking person try to approach us in the parking lot with “hey do you know where X is?” My response was “No thank you! No thank you! No thank you!” as I put distance between us and him. He called me an “f’n a-hole,” which is not incorrect, but I’m not a tour guide and I’m not letting anyone approach my family or me in those conditions.”
That is a very good way to communicate how to respond. I sort of do that but now I understand it better, thanks.
Since I was not carrying, I stayed very close to Mike on the above mentioned bison hunting trip ; ) He did make me use my own tent though ; (
Somewhere at the beginning of the trip I mentioned being more comfortable carrying spray, or at least in making the snap decision to use it. As I was saying this, a very strong gust of wind came up in my face that would’ve easily rendered spray useless.
The Montanans smirked and I saw the light. There was enough wind at points on that hunt that a bear would have to be nearly on top of you for spray to have been effective. Being covered in blood for 3 days in grizzly country made me think a little differently than I normally do about carrying a pistol.
^ I try to be vigilant (situationally aware) anytime I’m in grizzly country, but that trip certainly takes the cake. A large grizzly population, multiple grizzly maulings in that particular area (recent), a large bison carcass, bison meat on our backs, bison blood unavoidably in our clothing- kind of keeps you on your toes :)
Normally I only bring bear spray when recreating in grizzly country, this trip I felt a wee bit better with spray and a sidearm.
Ryan, “I have never heard of anybody saving themselves from a Randall Lee Smith with a gun in the backcountry.”:
In a bizarre (i.e. typically Alaskan) case, co-workers of my wife encountered a whacko in a truly wilderness fly-in setting who was extremely threatening to the group and armed with a handgun. In one of his calmer moments, one of the group chatted him up about his gun, asked to check it out, and was given it. The next time he got violent, they felt they had to defend themselves and not let him recover the gun. Shot him, killing him, and notified the State Troopers when they could.
But I agree with your point – don’t draw to a drawn gun and there is little you can do about a planned ambush. I don’t have stats on it, but a concern I have about open-carry (which you kind of have to for bear protection) is that you’re flashing a $500 bill. Guns are highly fungible and very easily pawned/sold. Far more so than a TV set, a laptop and all but the newest iPhone. Thankfully, the criminal element is almost always quite lazy and not inclined to get far from the pavement.
You’re right David, that’s why outside of Grizzly country, a concealed weapon is better.
Ryan, you make some good points, but there’s a much greater chance of someone robbing you (and letting you live) than killing you. An ambush is one thing, but with thugs it’s more about an opportunity presenting itself. I find trailheads, and within about a mile on nearby trails, is where you’re likely to encounter the most scary people. Primitive campgrounds can also harbor some very unsavory types.
And someone pulling a gun on you is far from the only violent action they might take.That’s why I believe a concealed handgun can possibly save the day, but as Mike says you need to be trained and practice with the gun often. While packing a revolver, I might have a chance. I don’t want the potential assailant to know I have it though. I want to deceive the enemy into thinking I’m weaker than I really am.
I go with my gut, If I see someone approaching who doesn’t look right, I quickly move off to the side of the trail and turn myself sideways to let them pass.Then if they get too close I tell them to back off. Ian is 100% right, don’t worry about politeness if someone is gets too close for comfort.
“there’s a much greater chance of someone robbing you”
The few hundred dollars is your wallet is a lot less than the tens of thousands you’ll spend lawyering up, even in a completely justified shooting.
* * * Chaff Warning * * *
About the only gun control I want or think we need, is that you have to insure your gun(s) like you do your car. If there’s really little risk of negligent use in your situation (age, training, health, DV history, police record, kids, etc), then the actuaries (or the NRA itself) will crunch the numbers and charge very little for liability insurance. If some guns or users are high risk, they’ll mostly be priced out of the market and the price of black-market guns will rise accordingly just like it costs more for a teenager to insure a Ferrari Testarossa than it does for me to insure my Toyota Corolla.
Then the NRA could go back to being like AAA – ensuring that old white people with low risk factors can enjoy their driving/shooting at minimal cost and bother.
Robberies often involve bodily harm to the victim without actually killing them. I have a friend in North Carolina who will never be the same after getting bashed over the head during a robbery in Hawaii. Poor guy is on disability now. He’s messed up for life. I’ll take my chances in court.
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