A few questions to those who carry a gun while hiking/backpacking

I always carry a gun while backpacking; but then, I always carry a gun around town, too, and have been for 25 years.

Glock 40 (10mm) while backpacking in Wyoming.   I have a retention holster on the bottom (OUTSIDE) of my McHale.   Very easy to reach, even if I’m flat on my back.   This does necessitate a right-handed draw.   I practice the draw before every trip (gun UN-loaded…)

Glock 43 (9mm) while hiking in Indiana.   This one is concealed in an AIWB (Appendix Inside the Waist Band) holster that, incredibly, is comfortable under the hip belt of a Mystery Ranch Sweet Pea.

I’ve been a gun guy since age 9 (yep, think “A Christmas Story”)  and a backpacker since age 11 (BSA).   My first encounter with real guns was in Scouts also; .22LR rifles at summer camp).   I am 56 now, so about 45 years of each.   I am retired as an Engineer, now; and only teach gun stuff (USCCA Training Counselor) and work as an armorer on Glocks.   The best of both worlds, I think !!!

Whether you choose to carry or not is up to you.   I used to be afraid of chainsaws, until I got some training and experience with them.   Now; I RESPECT them, but I have no fear of them.   The same is true with guns.   I start students with a “gun” that only shoots a laser-pointer-type of beam.   A video camera hooked to a computer with speakers makes a “BANG” sound…   From there we progress to the range and shoot .22LR guns with light loads (even for a .22…)   And then move on to regular .22LR.   This removes the fear, and replaces it with respect.

I would be remiss as an instructor if I didn’t finish the post with this ::  BE EMPHATIC ABOUT SAFETY.  I wrote the following to make it easier to remember and internalize.

E – Empty the gun of all ammo.  Every time you pick one up (for administrative uses).

M – Muzzle.   Always aim the gun in the safest possible direction, even when it is empty.

F – Finger.   Keep your finger off the trigger until on target and ready to engage.

A – Ammo.   Keep your gun loaded when you are using it, and keep it unloaded when you are not.

T – Target.  ID your Target and know what is around it.

I – Information.   Gather all you can.  Ingest it.

C – Concentrate.   Give firearms 100% of your attention.

If there was a good way to work in an “R”, it would stand for “Redundant”.   These rules overlap each other — on purpose — by design.  So if you manage to mess one of them up, the others still are protecting you.  But this is true ONLY if you are following ALL of the rules — ALL of the time.

All my backpacking is in grizzly country. I don’t carry during summertime backpacks. Never have, and I doubt I ever will. I respect those that do, and those that don’t. I’m perfectly good with bearspray. Were I a single woman, I might consider a little Glock 42 in 380.

During the fall I do my annual highcountry backpack-elk-hunt. Again, in grizzly country. Obviously I pack a rifle, and I usually pack spray too. Fall bears are typically much more aggressive bears than those found on trails in the summer.

While I don’t archery hunt anymore, I would absolutely carry my Glock 19 loaded with a hardcast FN style bullet. With hunting, especially archery hunting, one is doing everything “wrong” for avoiding a bear confrontation. You’re acting as a stealthy predator, moving quietly with attention to your scent. You’re off trail. It’s the fall, and bears are deep in their biological imperative to get as much food as possible.

Which brings me to firearm thoughts…

A few of the statements on this thread regarding the suitability of the 357 or 9mm on bears contain some pretty outdated thinking. A properly loaded 357 (with hardacst LBT’s) or 9mm (with hardcast FN’s) is absolutely brown bear and grizzly protection. Those non-expanding bullets penetrate deeply, and straight, and that’s what’s needed. The only way to stop an aggressive bear is with a CNS shot or good vital hits to turn it. That takes either blind luck, or tremendous skill under pressure. Or both. What I want in that situation is a LOT of chances at making a high probability of good hits.

For me, I’d pack the Glock 19 because, as the Russian General said to the American General, “Quantity has a quality all its own.” It packs a lot of firepower in the magazine. Also, a critical point about choosing a firearm is recoil. Larger weapons recoil more, slowing down repeated shots… and repeated, accurate shots QUICKLY are what is wanted to get those CNS or vital shots. I’ve owned all sorts of pistols including a 4.75″ Freedom Arms Model 83 in 454 Casull. It has far too much recoil for fast followup’s.

It should be noted for all those that have their mind made up, famed Brown Bear guide, Phil Shoemaker, packs a high capacity 9mm with Hard Cast FN’s for Brown Bear protection while guiding summertime fishermen and photographers. He was charged a couple of summers ago by a big boar, and put the bear down handily with a S&W 9mm.

Phil has likely been around more Brown Bear kills than any living Alaskan, and knows his way around what’s appropriate for bears. His thinking about the 357/9mm has absolutely informed mine. Shootability, with light recoil for fast followup shots with a hard cast FN is what is needed. Not sheer firepower.

Here’s a good link to his story and the ammunition he used:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388

I own several handguns and long guns, in an assortment of calibers and sizes. However, I’d never consider carrying one when I’m backpacking. As I explained to my friend, who carries a pistol all the time, “I spent $90 to trim 3 ounces off of my stove, and you want me to carry a 4 pound pistol??”

I did carry on a 3 day trip with teens just last week. In a chest rig my 33oz 44 mag wasn’t bad at all.  But I’m in Alaska with kids. I also had a huge first aid kit and an InReach. My personal gear was UL so the total load wasn’t too bad. I don’t know about those 454s. They look like something the Navy would bombard Normady Beach with.

I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t carry but it’s legal to pack just about anywhere now, although you had better know the rules and have a pretty good reason to discharge or you could loose your gun. One nice gun for backpacking is the Smith&Wesson scandium frame 357. If you only want it for protection on the trail, it’s hard to beat. Extremely light weight, hammerless so it doesn’t get snagged getting it out and pretty powerful. Practice with 38 special ammo because the mag loads hurt! It should be good for anything that attacks you in North America except maybe a moose or a griz. If a confrontation goes beyond bear spray it’s a good friend to have. The downside is that just like most ultra light gear it’s kinda spendy….

Les I tried a scandium framed 357 with full “bear loads.” Not fun but it works. Not much heavier than bear spray and arguably more useful outsider grizzly country. Actually I think it would put a real hurt on a Yellowstone grizzly. They seem to average 300 pounds or so. Of course there bear spray would be the first choice by far.

Guns certainly are a touchy topic.    I’ve never carried in the backcountry except when I was in the military and it was part of my job description.

Key things to remember.   The guns we carry are statistically more dangerous to ourselves than being unarmed.   I know you can never convince a proper gun person of that but animal fatalities in the wilderness are extremely rare.    I’ve lived with groups of trained armed men and gun accidents are not rare, even among the trained.

I’m not anti-gun.   I’ve built and own a couple different AR variations.   I go to the range regularly.   I have no philosophical ax to grind.  It is just fact… guns are dangerous tools and I don’t need them in the wilderness.

I find bad dogs to be the biggest threat out on the trail. I’ve had some scary encounters with canines, I ALWAYS carry a 4 oz (volume) canister of Fox pepper spray attached to my pack shoulder strap, I also carry a heavier retractable trekking pole made with high grade aluminum. When retracted the pole makes a great cub. The carbide tip makes it a good spear too.

I only carry a gun when I’m within about 100 miles of the Mexican border or if I am hiking with a female. There are other instances when I might carry, it just depends. I believe conceal with quick access is the way to go. Practicing the draw is very important too. Maybe not exactly like De Niro in Taxi Driver, but you get the idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQkpes3dgzger

I carried a firearm for 25-ish years backpacking while on duty as a Montana game warden.  When I backpacked off duty, I rarely carried a firearm (save deer/elk season obviously :)).  If I was in grizzly country I carried bear spray religiously (and still do).

In the “summer” hiking/running local trails near town I do carry a small firearm (Glock 43) due to a high transient population in these warmer months (they often like to camp on or near local trails).  Backpacking I rarely carry (I do have a small J frame .22 that I’ll carry for mtn grouse in September!).

If you’re going to carry, get professional training- not your neighbor Joe!  practice a lot, find a suitable carry method and chose appropriate ammunition for your needs.

I only carry a gun when … I am hiking with a female.

Clearly the most dangerous animals out there!  :-)

“I only carry a gun when … I am hiking with a female.”

I’ve never had a date that went that badly.

You guys are funny.

Seriously though, It’s true that men can become victims of sexual assault in remote areas, but the risk for women is infinitely greater. I know, many will scoff and say that there’s virtually no chance of such a thing happening on a wilderness trail, especially when accompanied by a man. Yea right.. Fact is that If you run into a couple of savages with guns out on the trail and you’re unarmed, you’re at their mercy.

Ironically I believe such a scenario is more apt to happen on trails closer to urban areas, but you never know. Ugly things can happen in remote areas and anyone who says they can’t are being naïve.

Instances of lone women being attacked (and often killed) while running along forested trails are all too common. There again it’s mostly near urban areas. If I had a daughter I would insist that they never go trail running alone in areas which are the least bit isolated.

yeah, women are helpless without men to protect them : )

do you have data about lone women hikers being attacked or is that just an impression?

“Fact is that If you run into a couple of savages with guns out on the trail and you’re unarmed, you’re at their mercy.”

C’mon Monte, you live in the south and I’m sure you’ve seen Deliverance. A couple of savages with guns are going to be eyeing you with leering grins, not the woman….

But seriously, if you’re out hiking and you encounter a couple of “savages” with guns, you’re almost always going to be at their mercy whether or not you have a gun as well, unless you hike with your hand on your gun, and pull it out whenever you hear someone coming before you even see them. And if not, the moment you reach for your gun while the bad guys have theirs trained on you, either you, your partner, or both of you are going to get shot.

“Instances of lone women being attacked (and often killed) while running along forested trails are all too common.”

I don’t know about ‘all too common.’ From Runner’s World: In reality, the chance of being murdered midrun is very, very small. A woman between the ages of 16 and 44 has only a 1 in 35,336 chance of being the victim of a homicide at any time. The risk for random homicide is even lower: A woman is far more likely to be killed by someone she knows than by a stranger. And she puts herself in far greater danger when she gets in her car to drive to school or work, when her risk of death is 2.5 times higher than by death at the hands of another person.

“Cheryl Stayed” (Cheryl Nyland) described an anxious encounter while on the PCT with two males seemingly considering sexual assault.  Of course, that presumes she actually hiked the PCT which is hard to square with her purported progress (there are some amazing distances covered in very short time and no one that year recalls seeing her on the trail).  And what are the chances that someone so bad at finances, college, recreational drugs, backpacking, marriage, equine care, birth control and family relationships would be a competent gun owner?

I was hiking a local trail one Spring and a single woman was coming the other way.  I’m in shorts, no gun, day pack on.  I smile and say “hi”.  She’s quiet and turns away from me.  Okay, I think, uncommon behavior here, but I realize women have to be much more concerned about their personal safety, and maybe she’s a tourist or just moved here or whatever.  But as I replay it in the mind, I realize she had a wicker basket in the crook of her arm on the side she turn away.   Ah.  She wasn’t worried about her personal safety.  She was worried I’d see morel mushrooms in her gathering basket and possibly backtrack to her secret mushroom patch.

You are absolutely right Doug. If one or more thugs with guns wants to get the drop on you, then they’re probably going to do it. However, if you have a concealed weapon you just might have a chance. What’s more is the fact that aggressors with guns are far from the only scenario you might  face out in the wilderness. It could be you come across 2 or 3 guys with no guns, maybe a knife or two, who decide to rob/rape you and your girlfriend just because you happen to present yourself as an opportunity. Criminals are above all opportunists.

Or maybe you’re sitting around camp and you see someone (or more) approaching your site. I can’t speak for others, but if my girlfriend, sister, etc is with me I am going to have my hand on a gun, albeit maybe not visible to the person who’s approaching. On a trail like the AT, PCT or in most NP’s I wouldn’t be apt to carry, but on many others trails I sure would.

About 20 years ago a lone female hiker was raped and killed along a forested 6.5 mile trail just outside of my hometown. It happened in a 6000 acre municipal park with thick trees and steep hills. Even though the park is close to the suburbs, it has a remoteness about it. I’d hate to try and convince the murdered girl’s parents that a lone female hiker is in no danger.

I believe if you look at hard crime statistics for urban/suburban areas, you’d see that attacks on lone women trail hiking/running are higher than you think  Scores of women (and quite a few young men) become missing persons every year, never to be heard from again. Certainly not a majority are being abducted off hiking  trails, however, anytime you put yourself in a vulnerable, isolated position you increase your chances becoming a victim.

The FBI admits that they don’t know the exact number of transient serial killers who roam the United States, but the agency says the number is scary high, in the hundreds no doubt.

Bradmacmt,

That Phil Shoemaker account was chilling.

Don’t know if I could be as effective in that situation.  I tend to panic.

I’ve carried a Glock 19 many times. It’s mostly a pain in the ass and uncomfortable to be honest. My primary concern is nutty humans more than animals. Carry bear spray for just about anything with four legs and a bad attitude.

A lady recently died hiking near Mount Hood from a mountain lion. At any rate, I always carry, but it’s not my first line of defense. First is my brain (whatever that’s worth) to make noise and avoid, then my dog (maybe she’s my first?) to keep alert, then I have bear spray (even in non-bear county hiking, I always bring it), then my trekking poles (whatever that’s worth), then my pistol. I have a ULA backpack with huge hip belt pockets that carries my Ruger LCR 357. I keep the gun in a pocket holster and keep the zippers slightly unzipped for easy access. I sometime will slip the pocket between the hip belt when I’m deep in the woods and just open carry. I hope I’ll never have to use it.

I hike and backpack in the mountain west. I’ve seldom carried my Ruger LC9 but when in the silds of Las Vegas I usually carry it.

When in my nearby Spring Mountains I was the sweep for a Sierra Club hike coming down a narroing canyon and saw a fresh deer kill partially covered with dirt and knew instantly it was a mountain lion kill. I hustles the rest of the hikers out of the area and reported it to the rangers. They then posted a mountain lion warning for that area.

All I had on me at the time was a large bear spray canister which might be enough.

In sum, to quote one of our wilderness icons: “We pack our fears”.

“The only way to stop an aggressive bear is with a CNS shot”

Anyone know what CNS stands for in the line above?

I sometimes carry a gun.  Weight is the primary consideration.  If I had a 1 shot 4 ounce gun I’d carry it all the time on backpacks.  I’m looking for that last option desperate attempt to disable an aggressor before they do harm to me.

Laura and I have run into scary people twice while backpacking deep in Washington’s Pasayten Wilderness.  I think they were smuggling drugs.  Nothing happened but I would have paid a lot to have a weapon at hand.

My most frequent threat has been dogs.  Bear spray should handle this if needed although I’ve never used it. .  But then I’d have an irate dog owner who didn’t protect me from the dog in the first place.  How do I handle him?

So as I ramble on here I realize my imagined strategy is bear spray for animals and a gun for humans.

There are several very light 2-shot derringer type pistols available. Beware of buying a .45/210 derringer B/C their recoil is too powerful for comfort. A 9 mm should handle most problems OTHER than bears.

bear spray is very effective on humans; it’s the same spray we (LEO’s) carry on duty- just a smaller can (and a less effective distance); we use to subdue an uncooperative individual and then arrest them and then have to provide proper care

for a civilian using it on an aggressor- spray and then get the hell out of there (alert law enforcement at your nearest opportunity)

Anyone know what CNS stands for in the line above?

Central Nervous System. The point is that it’s not enough to kill a charging bear, you have to stop it. It doesn’t matter if the bear dies 60 seconds later; that’s plenty of time for it to shred you.