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A few questions to those who carry a gun while hiking/backpacking


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Viewing 14 posts - 151 through 164 (of 164 total)
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  • #3572206
    Jenny A
    BPL Member

    @jennifera

    Locale: Front Range

    This topic has been very interesting, lots of good info presented.  The last thing I would choose to carry into the backcountry is a gun, and I hope things never come to that (for people – bears are another issue entirely).  I have also recently realized that the older I get, the less need I feel to be polite to people who set off my spidey senses or even just cross boundaries that I don’t like.  I don’t owe anyone who makes me uncomfortable a Hi, a Have a nice day, or a dollar, and they can drop all the F-bombs they want.  I agree with those who have said that a very few notable exceptions aside, folks with bad intent don’t generally go to the effort to walk in very far from the trailhead.

    #3572325
    Ian
    BPL Member

    @10-7

    Here’s an interesting backyard comparison of 10mm vs .44 magnum, both Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) I believe.

    YouTube video

    Mike mentioned carrying hard cast bullets.  I presume this is something that will not deform/expand like a JHP and penetrate further through bone/muscle of a charging grizzly bear where the shot would be head on.  My firearm experience has been with JHP or Full Metal Jacket, so I’ll let someone more knowledgeable than me offer an explanation of the hard cast bullet characteristics.

    I typically carry 9mm in 124gr in JHP.  My daily driver is a Glock 26 but I also own a Glock 17 for when I’m loaded for bear figuratively speaking.  Some lazy googling shows that there are hard cast 9mm rounds available for actual bear defense in 147gr.

    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388

     

    #3572340
    Mike M
    BPL Member

    @mtwarden

    Locale: Montana

    ^ exactly; for two legged predators jhp is definitely the way to go (the last ten years has resulted in a plethora of very good jacketed hollow points, spurred in part by the FBI’s criteria for testing)

    for large four legged predators a hard cast bullet is much more desirable as you will see little to no expansion, but much better penetration- needed due to thick musculature and heavy bone of most large predators

    most of the hard cast bullets on the market (including Buffalo Bore) also tend use heavier bullets (for example 300+ grains for .44 mag vs the typical 240 gr) AND tent to be loaded at or very near maximum pressures

    these rounds are generally not pleasurable to shoot (in a sidearm anyways); I sighted in with 5 rounds of 305 grain hard casts and the thumb swell on my hand black and blued; I have some much milder .44 Special rounds (in 240 grain) that are fun to shoot :)

    #3572342
    David Thomas
    BPL Member

    @davidinkenai

    Locale: North Woods. Far North.

    Going back to the original topic, which didn’t involve grizzly bears, I’ve recently become aware of the Kel-Tec PMR-30.  Well under a pound empty, 19 ounces with thirty (30!!) rounds of .22 magnum in it.  Essentially no recoil and while the .22LR (long rifle) is considered marginal for anything beyond rabbit / medium dog (and yet is used in more murders than any other caliber), .22WMR (Winchester Magnum Rimfire) has 2 to 3 times the muzzle energy as .22LR.

    The early ones had some issues with jamming until you’ve broken it in and/or use the recommended ammo (40-50 grain, not 30-32 grain bullets).  The current ones don’t seem to have any problems, so I wouldn’t buy an older, used one.  About $369 at Sportsmen’s Warehouse, etc, but they are often out of stock.

    Wicked loud because of its muzzle blast, but without much recoil (an issue with lightweight 9mm, .357, etc handguns), it’s easier to develop good habits and aim at the range.  Here’s an example of a skilled shooter using / reviewing it:

    YouTube video

    So, practice, practice, practice.

    It would be ideal for an attacking dog (which is the most deadly non-biped in the USA after hornets, wasps & bees) and not unreasonable for a human especially with 2 to 3 center-of-mass plus a head shot (and then you can ponder what to do with your other 26 bullets).

    An extra puffy, beanie hat, light wind pants and two garden trash bags, at under a pound, are far more likely to save your life on the trail, but HYOH.

    #3572346
    Ian
    BPL Member

    @10-7

    It’s been months since I’ve read through this thread and I just realized that I posted more/less my thoughts on OC here but back in May 2018.

    My bad.

    Mike,

    Thanks.   It’s always great to learn something new.  I’m not much of a revolver shooter but I looked up your S&W.   Looks like a good option.

    David,

    Loves me some Hickock 45.   That’s an interesting round.

     

     

    #3572347
    David Thomas
    BPL Member

    @davidinkenai

    Locale: North Woods. Far North.

    And back to grizzlies: I’ve long repeated the State of Alaska’s recommendations to not rely on any handgun, even a .44 or .454, for bear protection, but to carry a minimum of .300 Win Mag or 1-ounce rifled slugs in a 12 gauge.  But (back in this thread?), when someone raised the concept of hard-cast bullets in a semi-auto pistol, I held my tongue and pondered that idea some more.

    A .300 Win Mag gives you 4,000 foot-pounds of energy, but you have to swing that heavy rifle up (hopefully you have open sights because you won’t see anything but out-of-focus fur through a scope), fire, and then cycle the bolt for a follow-up.  Versus a Glock 20 in 10mm is 700 foot-pounds x 15 rounds = 10,500 foot pounds and while the hard cast bullet won’t mushroom, the perimeter area of all those deep 10 mm wound channels is vastly greater than a mushroomed or fragmented rifle bullet.  And if you miss with a few of them, you’ve still landed a dozen rounds.

    I’ve seen bears hit with a big rifle round and while it might even spin around a medium black bear, they keep moving for quite a while (whereas I’m pretty sure I’d conclude  “Screw-it, I’m done for the day.” if I got hit) so I wouldn’t count on even a large rifle round as a one-shot solution.

    Huge caveat: all the data says a pound of bear spray is more successful than any 3 to 5 pounds of handgun or 8 to 10 pounds of rifle.  And we are Backpacking Light.

    #3572352
    Ian
    BPL Member

    @10-7

    Being faster than your backpacking buddy weighs 0 ounces.  I’m big and slow so it’s OC, firearms, and a broadsword for me.

    #3572355
    David Thomas
    BPL Member

    @davidinkenai

    Locale: North Woods. Far North.

    Ian, so it’s the Jack Churchill approach for you?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill

    #3572366
    Ian
    BPL Member

    @10-7

    I can’t claim to be half that cool, but he’s certainly inspiration

    #3572547
    BH
    Spectator

    @pointeaubaril

    In black bear territory, I carry a Glock 20 equipped with a TLR-1 light concealed in a chest rig, loaded with 200 grain, flat nose, hard cast rounds.  I carry this in hog country as well.  This is a 10mm round and very capable of handling large animals.  I use a Hill People Gear rig that conceals the firearm but still allows a quick draw.  My wife carries bear spray if she’s with me, so we have both bases covered.  I would carry bear spray + a firearm if in grizzly country and always try to travel in groups of three or more.

    Where there are no bears or large predators I carry a 9mm, sometimes a Glock 19, sometimes something smaller like a Glock 43.  I carry for this for personal protection since I’m generally worried more about people than animals.

    A couple of things on spray vs. gun.  A spray will be easier for the average person to deploy if there’s a charge, especially from a grizzly.  However, a spray plus a firearm is always better than one or the other.  Listen to hunting guides who spend 200+ nights a year in bear country.  There are times when it’s simply too windy for spray to be effective, but on the other hand, hitting a charging bear with a firearm requires a lot of skill (or luck).  Many guides carry large caliber revolvers as primary defense or a last resort, so if the bear is on top of them they are able to deploy an extremely powerful handgun round at close range.

    I would not want to face a group of 4-8 hogs with bear spray, and I’ve run into some pretty big hogs.  Luckily I noticed them before they noticed me and didn’t stumble upon them.  I’d feel more comfortable with 16 rounds of 10mm with another 15 in a spare mag when facing a group of angry hogs.

    I would not recommend carrying a firearm until you’ve had training, because I think it’s pretty obvious from your post that you didn’t grow up shooting.  Find a competent instructor and learn the basics of firearm safety, then start taking some self defense shooting classes.  Plinking at the range does not qualify as training for a self defense scenario.

    #3572560
    W I S N E R !
    Spectator

    @xnomanx

    “Huge caveat: all the data says a pound of bear spray is more successful than any 3 to 5 pounds of handgun or 8 to 10 pounds of rifle.  And we are Backpacking Light.”

    Hear! Hear!

    #3572564
    Todd Stough
    BPL Member

    @brewguy

    Something I just thought about.  I’ve seen in shows if a bear show too much interest or gets too close the guides fire a round to scare it off.  I’m assuming they do this to keep the bears afraid of humans.  If bear spray or yelling is your only deterrent.  What happens if you spray a bear?  It’s now hurt, thinks you are attacking it, does that increase your odds of an attack vs firing a loud gun?

    Would a 9mm or .45 auto even penetrate a bears fur and skin?  Perhaps with a head shot you don’t need to?  Back when I was a kid and we would butcher cows, they would shoot them point blank in the skull with a .22lr, it would knock them out, not kill them.  The bullet wouldn’t even penetrate the skull at all, I don’t think it made a mark.

    I’m glad I don’t live in grizzly country.

    #3572575
    Ian
    BPL Member

    @10-7

    We need to consider the posssibilty of being attacked by multiple bears.  Oh sure bear spray is great on a windless day and against one bear, but what if you were attacked by 20 grizzlies?  20 grizzlies in a wind storm?

    Without searching, I’m 99% sure that I’m the first to propose a solution here on BPL.

    The only reasonable way to fight off an attack of 20 bears is to carry 20 glocks and perform a Death Blossom.

    You are welcome

    https://youtu.be/nmPGuMGs8cg

     

    #3572644
    BH
    Spectator

    @pointeaubaril

    Todd – large bears have been killed with both 9mm and .45, but it is not advisable to carry either round for protection against bear.

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