Why Isn’t There an UL Alcohol Type Stove that Bruns White Gas?

[Dan Yeruski]

Listen up my friend bob gross. I don't sell modified stoves for the purpose of using white gas for fuel.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Dan,

You should really learn how to spell.

[Bob Gross]

In today's litigious society, you can't be too careful with a stove modified for white gas. You might be OK as long as there aren't any YouTube videos demonstrating it.

–B.G.–

[Dale Wambaugh]

Kerosene and white gas stoves have been around for ages, but the mountaineering models were heavy, expensive, cranky and needed mainenance.

So I'll ask the question another way: why do people use alcohol stoves:

Cost
Simplicty
Weight
Compactness
Relative safety of DIY models
Access to fuel
Consequences of fuel leaks

I'm sure safe white gas stoves can be made, but I would prefer to stay away from ones that were knocked out in someone's garage. Fuel leaks happen and I've found it far easier and less destructive to clean up alcohol spills.

I've seen the results of gasoline explosions and fires. Be careful with the stuff.

[USA Duane Hall]

I "assembled" my Focus Fire stove today. Works great, about as fast as a alky stove, I can see the flame is susceptible to any breeze, like my experience 11 years ago, I can see a second windscreen is needed. I did not do any precise measuring like I did on my alky stove tests Saturday. I need to test more, neat to have something so light.
Duane

[Roger Caffin]

> Now Roger and David tell us why the Venom Super Stoves can burn these fuels.

All the excitement of watching a small alcohol stove on a cold day.

I am not sure what sort of alcohol HEET in a red bottle is, but it is alcohol, isn't it? So I don't see any problem.

Cheers

[Bob Gross]

"I am not sure what sort of alcohol HEET in a red bottle is"

I believe that red bottle HEET is mostly isopropyl alcohol, and yellow bottle HEET is mostly methanol. Similar, but two different animals.

–B.G.–

[Zorg Zumo]

I have. The self-pressurizing design of the SVEA is a very old concept. Seems like modern materials would enable the creation of a much lighter SVEA123-like stove.

Gotta love the SVEA! The little sucker fires right up with very little to break.

[Bob Gross]

"Seems like modern materials"

What materials did you have in mind?

–B.G.–

[Roger Caffin]

While I am impressed by the neat way Dan's stove works with Coleman fuel, I think we better point out that there are very big differences between that and ordinary auto gas or petrol. Coleman fuel is specially formulated to NOT have a highly volatile component, the way petrol does. So while it may burn stabily in the stove, petrol is likely to burn quite differently – and more dangerously.

I will also add that in our many walks around Europe in the mountains, I have never seen Coleman fuel for sale. Canisters, yes, everywhere, but never Coleman fuel. And we have poked our noses into quite a few shops along the way.

Cheers

[Bob Gross]

Roger, many of us who grew up in North America were used to Coleman fuel (white gas) since that is all we had for camping stoves and lanterns. Many of us who operate in the mountains of California have found white gas to be effective, especially in cases of cold, high volume boiling, snow melting, etc. So, many of us have white gas stoves in our arsenal.

When headed on a big climb in South America, we were concerned about fuel availability, so we checked. In the last city before the mountain, we went to a specific hardware store that sold white gas. The store owner had it in a 55-gallon drum in the back room. We had to ask for "gasolina blanca" and we had to supply our own Sigg fuel bottles to carry it out. That was 18 years ago, but the cost was the equivalent of $1 US per liter. It seems as though everybody headed to the same mountain was seeking the same fuel.

The marketplace will always meet the demand.

–B.G.–

[James Marco]

"10ml, 1/3oz will boil 2 cups of 30 degree beginning temp of water in 35 degree air temp. Now I say to Marco….is that efficient?"

Well Dan, you *must* be talking C. Water would be frozen at 30F. Check your numbers…
As I said, it takes 9-12gm(about 1/3oz) to do a LITER (4+ cups) in my old SVEA, depending.

Note that I reproduced this with Roger's canister stove (not enough difference to call it a difference at plus/minus 10%.) With a standard 12/10, it took about 1-1/4oz to 1-1/2oz to do a liter in a standard caldera cone. Many years ago I made up several that would do it in less, but not in cold weather…they took too long to burn at 12-15 minutes.

Check the archives here. The pleated (Mercury) stoves burn real well, but do require a bit of work to fold the sides. I was trying to make one that burned WG efficiently but mixing was ALWAYS a problem. They weigh about 4-5gm and work as well as any. Way down towards the bottom, I think, the little orange stove. Note that it had been used a lot despite looking new. One improvement was angling the folds. Didn't help with efficiency, though.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=56024&disable_pagination=1

[James Marco]

Titanium, 2oz fuel bottle.
Aluminum stretches too much when it gets hot and is under pressure. Aluminum for the valve. Ti for the burner.

I have thought about machining all the parts, but it got a bit crazy at work. I retired before I got around to it.

I would bet you can get the weight down to 1/3, maybe less, what it is today.

[Zorg Zumo]

Aluminum, Titanium, and some insulators. Aluminum because it is lightweight, strong, conducts heat (too well) and can be made corrosion resistant. Insulators to control conducted and reflected heat. Titanium for the high-heat burner cup and pot support legs.

[Dan Yeruski]

James Marco, thanks for catching that error. Jon thanks for spell checking. Bob, thanks for legal counsel.

I changed the water temp to read 35. It was the same temp as the air temp.

"10ml, 1/3oz will boil 2 cups of 35 degree beginning temp of water in 35 degree air temp. Now I say to Marco….is that efficient?"

You can watch the video again. I'm burning Coleman white gas in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KFjFQr00TE#t=223

The stove also burns other fuels. The video was made for the guys and girls on my website bplite.com where we talk a lot about stoves. The modified version is to be used in emergencies when alcohol is not available. I don't sell the modified version, never have.

I have also designed an efficient kerosene stove of a size for backpackers.

I don't like the smell of burning white gas, kerosene or iso91. I don't advocate the use of them in my stoves or any other stove. All I can do is inform of the capabilities of the stove. Once the fuel is absorbed by the wick material it can't spill. The wick can release the fuel in a safe fashion. We are only talking about 1/2 ounce of fuel at a time for heating 2 cups of water. !/2 ounce held in suspension folks. The Super Stove is super for various reasons. Don't forget, it is one piece…no separate pot stand needed. A fuel bottle with micro dispense cap is provided with the stove for easy filling.

The major downside is the fact that the Venom Super Stove is not made of titanium :-)))

Wind Resistant feature of the Super Stove:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po0FrMBLcrM
.

[James Marco]

"10ml, 1/3oz will boil 2 cups of 35 degree beginning temp of water in 35 degree air temp. Now I say to Marco….is that efficient?"

I burn about 9-12gm (~1/3oz) of fuel per *LITER* (4+cups) in the old SVEA, depending.
At 35/35 likely closer to the 12gm than 9gm for the liter.

[Dan Yeruski]

Marco, how well do your alcohol stoves do with white gas? This thread is about alcohol stoves ;-) What's your point about using the old SVEA?

[Dan Yeruski]

"Question: It looks like a very nice flame height when the pot is on the stove, and yet there is SO much more flame height when the pot is removed. Do you have an explanation for that discrepancy? Flame quenching by the pot? Much greater air flow without the pot?"

David,

Removing the pot was to show what the flame looks like when it's not burning efficiently.

The nice blue flame is what we strive to achieve for a more efficient burn.

The procedure for using the stove would be to insert amount of fuel to boil 2 cups, place pot onto stove, light and wait till flame is almost out and then remove pot.

[Charley White]

I believe the nomenclature ambiguity as to what fuels "are" will live indefinitely. Maybe even as long as ego spats and intentional mispellings. Thinking Coleman seems more like gasoline to me than "naphtha" I went looking at MSDS, (unable to quickly find an old reference). Following list of fuels shows "flash point," and lowest listed "boiling point." Chemists correct me, but I think these indicate rough comparability of explosiveness. All temps Fahrenheit.

Gasoline -45/100

Coleman fuel 0/100

Zippo fluid 73/90

Ronsonol 39/212

Klean Strip
VM&P Naphtha 50/242

Ultra Pure
Lamp oil 207/430

[James Marco]

Dan, I consider them a failure, though they will do about 2 cups in a 1/3 oz. They do not burn cleanly. Quenching the flame down to primary combustion works for visual flames, but not for fumes. When I did that, they produced quite a strong smell, indicating incomplete combustion. Likely lots of different byproducts being produced and rather high CO values. WG needs better fuel/air mixing, as with most heavier hydrocarbons. The SVEA is an example of a stove with good efficiency. Most remote canisters have good efficiency, too. Some of the older optimus models *could* burn either alcohol or WG. But they needed a conversion kit. Neither is available today. Alcohol tends to produce higher pressures than WG. Sort of like acetone. It will pop the safety valve before enough fuel is vaporized and burned to be self maintaining. The vapours are not compressible enough. I believe, but never tried it, that it could be done with the SVEA, by opening the jet up, removing about 1/2-3/4 of the wick. But again, it will likely blow the safety after 5-10 minutes of operation. (Mostly due to thermal feedback.)

Charley, The difference between burning and an explosion is the rate of the chemical reaction. 'Corse, a lot depends on how well you contain it, too. Thanks for the chart!

Way back in the mid to latter 50's, we would get white gas at a gasoline station. This was simply pumped out of a 55gal drum into your container. The only difference back then was the additives. White gas had no detergents, ethyl-lead, etc. Mostly a mixture of hydrocarbons right from the fractionating towers at the refinery. Now, Coleman packages WG in containers that is mostly pentane, some hexane and isomeres with some other stuff. Car fuel is mostly septane with other stuff and additives. Very little is octane, part of the other stuff. The cars burn the lighter components a bunch cleaner but it has a lower knock point, hence the additives to slow the burning down. I think David Thomas will know more.

[Charley White]

James Marco said: "Quenching the flame down to primary combustion works for visual flames, but not for fumes. When I did that, they produced quite a strong smell, indicating incomplete combustion."

Thanks to you & David Thomas for "quenching." Seeking a while ago an oil based stove, I was trying to better-burn a a tall, yellow flame from a wick in brass tubing. I cobbled ss screen around the flame theorizing a turbulent mixing, maybe catalyzing. Eureka–screen went red and flame went blue. But a moment later a light yellow over-flame would emerge above the screen. And prior, it smelled fume-y. Thanks for reinforcing my suspicion.

Should have said "inflammable," i/o "explosive,"…feeling incendiary?

"Fractions"–obvious to those who know, but boiling points were given as ranges, and this is no doubt due to the fact that all these fuels are blends of fractions, each fraction having it's own boiling point. Again, the problem of defining a stew. Naphtha may be heavy or light, paraffinic or non–paraffinic. Do you really have to use squirrel, or will chicken do?

Slowly it dawns on me what that big fat cotton braid was doing in my old Optimus.

[Dan Yeruski]

Came across this one in my archives.

This one worked well but didn't like the smell of kerosene burning. It's DIY stove.

This is a photobucket video, click on it to view.

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