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Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD)


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  • #1990922
    Yang Lu
    Member

    @yanglu

    Davey Jones, you got exactly my point. I appreciated.

    #1990924
    Ā 
    BPL Member

    @rememberthelorax

    na

    #1990931
    Yang Lu
    Member

    @yanglu

    I am just sharing my experience, not destorying anything. I am curious why you are so sensitive.

    As a matter of fact, I did send one last email a couple weeks ago to expresss my concern, but obviously SMD ignored me. So tell me how to work out with the company?

    >>> You have too much free time also?

    Yes, my comment was totally worth 20 bucks of my time.

    Pettily little complaint that should have been worked out with the company.

    What, you really think that you posting two pictures and a few email correspondence are going to all of a sudden be a big red flag to the hiking community regarding one of the oldest cottage companies out there? You really think think that? I sure hope not.

    Or, is it more that you just wanted to post this in hopes of SMD seeing this and thinking "oh gosh, this one guy is going to destroy our reputation at BPL, we should give this guy his 20 bucks back". HAH get real.

    #1990950
    Miguel Arboleda
    BPL Member

    @butuki

    Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan

    I think Yang is posting on BPL precisely because he cannot seem to work out the problem with SMD. That's what I would do if I was having an issue with a cottage manufacturer and they were no longer responding to me, since at least here the cottage manufacturer would have to pay attention and sort out the problem. In Yang's last post he said his last email was "a couple of weeks ago", which suggests that Yang waited quite a reasonable amount of time before taking the step to post here.

    I'm not sure, but I think Yang doesn't live in the States, and so I think he has the extra trouble of dealing with a business that probably doesn't trust customers from abroad, especially from where I think Yang comes from. Yang might also not be a native English speaker (I'm just guessing… perhaps I'm wrong). How this translates to the attitudes at SMD I have no idea. But it could possibly be a factor. Over the years I've dealt with lots of American businesses that treated someone from outside the States with overly cautious or downright nasty reluctance. I'm not saying that SMD is like that, but who knows?

    A lot of the responses in this thread are being pretty nasty themselves. In the same way that businesses ought to interact with courtesy to customers, I think showing courtesy to someone here in the forums, by assuming they are innocent before accusing them of doing something unsavory, is a basic starting point when talking to anyone. Some of you might have no problem with throwing away money and not caring that a business deal wasn't properly worked out, but I'm sure many of you would. What would you do in Yang's case? Why should he bear the brunt of the problem? And why is SMD's reputation more important than his?

    How about we take the stance of some of the other posters here who are at least giving Yang the benefit of the doubt? The problem could be any number of things, both on SMD's part and on Yang's part. But we don't know. So why automatically take SMD's side? It's not easy to post in a public forum where you can be subjected to all the criticism that is already being shown here. Takes courage.

    #1990951
    scree ride
    Member

    @scree

    503-430-2303

    #1990954
    Yang Lu
    Member

    @yanglu

    Miguel, thanks for the message. It must have taken you quite awhile to write them down. I appreciate it. I actually live in Los Angeles. As you said English was indeed my second language.

    #1990959
    Derrick White
    BPL Member

    @miku

    Locale: Labrador

    Yang is right to expect a refund. He has asked for it repeatedly with no success. SMD is wrong. Giving shitty customer service is their own chosen peril. Yang's post here is warranted given the preceding events. Like it or not, i does impact their reputation . . . and it should!.

    Nuff said,

    Derrick

    #1990961
    Ron Moak
    Member

    @rmoak

    na

    #1990968
    JP
    BPL Member

    @jpovs-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2

    Locale: Arrowhead

    #1990971
    Tad Englund
    BPL Member

    @bestbuilder

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    So Ron, what I hear you saying is: when Yang Lu purchases the Cuben version he will get free shipping on that purchase, thus making up the refund on the shipping for the previous transaction.
    It seams fair for you and fair for him.

    Though Yang Lu might have a bad taste in his mouth about the quality of the products (given the pictures shown) and just wanted to return them all because of it. And I can see how he might expect to have the return shipping covered regardless if he orders something else or not. But it is Ron's business and he has the final say.

    #1990973
    Ian
    BPL Member

    @10-7

    Ron,

    I've stalked your website more than a few times and am impressed with SMD's innovative designs.

    Maybe extending Yang a line of credit towards the next purchase may be a way to find some middle ground?

    Good luck with your future endeavors either way.

    On a more positive note, apparently John Abela is the official Lorax of the cottage industry.

    #1990974
    Josh Brock
    Member

    @needsabath

    Locale: Outside

    "Threads – omg… grow up. Just cut them if you think a few long threads are the end of the world. A simple piece of thread you think is worth ripping on a company for… sheesh. Perhaps you just need to forget about the whole hiking thing… and maybe take up… oh, I do not know…. hmm, knitting maybe?"

    LOL some one does not like other peoples quality expectations… and BTW depending on which threads are being shown this and the way in which it was sewn cutting those threads could be a bad Idea it snot like its an end thread it is a poorly sewn seam not one I would want to cut especially off some thing I just bought I cant return after one use. That thing better be perfect when I get it with there return policy..

    "Zor *perfectly* nailed the perfect response to your entire situation: "you should've ordered this gear long ago and tested it before taking it on a trip"

    When some one order their gear is irrelevant, especially if they discussed the time frame in which it was needed. If SMD felt like you did they could have always said "time frames are the time frames you do what you feel is necessary" but they didn't they agreed to work around his situation.

    "You wrote a 1200+ word post for pretty much nothing more than an issue with a bug net that had a few small holes in it, and 20 bucks in shipping fees."

    Its called fully explaining the situation as to not be mistaken. and to be honest he was quite polite with his complaints. VALID COMPLAINTS

    BTW I still have confidence that this is a simple misunderstanding and will be made right. most of these guys are good guys in my experiences.

    #1990979
    Ryan Smith
    BPL Member

    @violentgreen

    Locale: East TN

    "And I can see how he might expect to have the return shipping covered regardless if he orders something else or not. But it is Ron's business and he has the final say."

    Ahh, that's where we will disagree. The consumer has the final say – one way or the other. I love SMD products personally and have bought a couple things from them. I most likely will in the future too. But, overall I have to agree that this is pretty poor customer service. Regardless of whether a refund was "deserved" or not, SMD committed to it. Customer service 101 – Manage your customer's expectations – Do what you say.

    Ryan

    #1990984
    Derrick White
    BPL Member

    @miku

    Locale: Labrador

    Ron,

    With all due respect I don't think your legal analysis would get much mileage under objective legal consideration.

    SMD delivered a defective product which is a breach of its contract with Yang. The breach is SMD's, not his, and SMD should bear the cost of putting Yang in the place he would have been had you not breached. Accordingly, SMD should reimburse his shipping. Any other legal construction is a convenient contrivance.

    Quite apart from your legal obligations, I would think good customer service dictates something a little more courteous and genuine than what he is receiving.

    I have too have received defective products from cottage companies which I've learned of on this site and, you may be interested in knowing, the reasonableness of their response starkly contrasts with the tediousness of yours.

    Derrick

    #1990988
    M B
    BPL Member

    @livingontheroad

    defective product

    Seller covers return shipping, and gives refund if that is desired.
    Seller covers return shippina and ships out replacement if that is desired.

    cut and dry

    What customer intends to do in future, has no bearing on how things ought to be handled.

    Non-defective product, customer pays return shipping.

    #1990994
    Josh Brock
    Member

    @needsabath

    Locale: Outside

    Hmmm not the response I was thinking would be posted by Ron.. Especially over such a small sum of money. And having read all the dialog between the two parties(which ran is not contesting) it would be my understanding that I was getting a refund for the total amount regardless of whether or not the future purchase was going to take place.

    " After we get the shelter in we can reimburse you for shipping costs. The shelter should fit nicely in a priority mail tyvek envelope and only weight 1 lb."

    No where in that response does Brandon Moak state that this refund is contingent on Yang getting the cuben tarp.

    Given the dialog I don't see Rons response as relevant to the given situation or acceptable.

    "Neither party to a transaction can be obligated if the transaction is unenforceable by either party."

    If you want to say that then fine but the transaction being discussed is that of the refund not the future purchase of the cuben tar. Which is why its important to either deal with all this stuff your self or stand by what your employees say as if its your own mouth saying it.

    Unfortunately this thread put a bad taste I my mouth about smd and Rons response made it worse for me. I doubt I will be doing business with a cottage gear maker that wants to act like a lawyer over 20 dollars worth of shipping.

    Thanks for the post Yang

    #1990998
    Nick Gatel
    BPL Member

    @ngatel

    Locale: Southern California

    Win the battle with a customer and lose the war.

    Some of my thoughts on the cottage industry I wrote a while back…Open Letter to the Backpacking Cottage Industry

    #1990999
    Ā 
    BPL Member

    @rememberthelorax

    So I just wanted to share this, and then I will be done.

    I am by no means intending to attack the OP of this discussion. Rather I am trying to get across my feelings that this type of posts do not even (in my opinion) belong here at BPL, especially such minut issues such as this one.

    Let us break this down. There are three issues that the OP brought up, and two of those three issues are really only one issue.

    The first issue should not even be an issue. That issue is the defective product. If this post was about nothing more than the defective product none of this hoopla would even be taking place. Why? Because SMD did right by that issue, they replaced the defective product. I buy thousands of dollars of gear a year from mainstream and cottage companies and I on a monthly basis have to send gear back because it is defective or the order is wrong in some way. This does not dismiss any wrong doings, but SMD has done *nothing* wrong in regards to this first issue – they did right, they replaced the defective product.

    SO that leaves issues #2 and #3. When it comes down to it, this is nothing more than a he-said, he-said, he-said issues… all over twenty bucks. Yeah, there have been a few times each year when I have had to pay to send one of the products I bought back to the company – it sucks, I admit it. But it does not justify me coming onto BPL and smack talking the company about it. So, keeping in mind that issues #1 is for all and intent purposes a mute issue, all of this is just over a stupid little he-said-this-and-he-said-that-and-i-said-this issue… for a lousy twenty bucks. Is BPL really the kind of place that we want to turn into a place where this kind of posts about this kind of an issue is to become? How petty of an issue is this folks. For twenty bucks you can hardly buy a weekends worth of Mountain House, or buy and have shipped a set of stakes for a shelter, or whatever. Yeah, times are tough for some folks, but (and again) the last thing I want BPL to turn into is a website for a bunch of crying about interactions between hikers and cottage companies over twenty bucks.

    To me, BPL is just not the place for these "Very unpleasant experience" unless there is a very solid case to be made against the company. And in the vast majority of cases I have seen that has just never been the case – including this one, as I have herein (hopefully) presented. If SMD had not done right by replacing the defective product, ok give it some serious consideration before hitting the "post message" button. But that is just not the case here.

    #1991000
    Dale Wambaugh
    BPL Member

    @dwambaugh

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    I like the Tom Peters "In Search of Excellence" approach to business– don't just meet the customers expectations, exceed them instead. Some business folk allow themselves to become embattled and create "rules" that are counter to good customer service policy. A very small percentage of customers can be very hard to deal with, but you don't want to punish 98% of your customers with policies designed to handle the problematic 2%. Rules like, "you can't return it if it was used" taken as an absolute just paints both parties into a corner. Each issue must be taken on a case by case basis.

    Online sales are always on shaky ground compared to brick and mortar transactions. Neither party has eye contact with the other and written communications can sometimes seem terse, even angry, when that may have not been the author's intention. Communication is key to keeping the customers trust and delays in communication tend to break any good will.

    I am at a loss to the cost of the shipping. $21 seems steep unless it was international or perhaps that was both ways? I would have sent a UPS call tag to the customer. In many cases the cost of shipping is a minor issue compared to the time and effort to ship the item. It seems like a simple thing to the vendor who does it daily, but many people aren't used to shipping and don't know the options or have the materials to ship an item. You can't go to the post office and get a Tyvek envelope. They have Priority Flat Rate boxes only on hand; the envelopes must be ordered on line.

    I'm reminded of the issue with the POE air pad where the CEO got into it with the customer on the forums here. It certainly did damage to POE's public relations and in fact, they aren't around any longer. It would have been far better to take the customer's side, override a clerk's poor decision and just send the guy a new mattress. The minute a business person gets a chip on their shoulder they lose, regardless if the customer has a valid complaint. It just ain't worth it!

    #1991005
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    this is PRECISELY the place to bring up such issues … we have all the BPLers cheering on certain companies, going RAH RAH RAH buy this and that and how theres great service … you CANNOT ask to censor the problems should they arise

    unless you want to turn BPL into a one stop advertising promotion where poor experiences cant be posted because certain members dont like it

    as to the original situations … small companies live and die by their customers … make sure they are happy

    its that simple ;)

    #1991012
    Ron Moak
    Member

    @rmoak

    na

    #1991015
    Dave T
    Member

    @davet

    Defective product, company pays for return shipping. It's pretty simple.

    And I agree with others that the OP attempted to communicate and have the valid issues addressed by the company prior to posting here. We need to hear about negative experiences (i.e. Big Sky) in addition to the usual positive experiences with cottage gear makers.

    Ron Moak's response (above) and customer service in this case is sorely lacking, and suggests caution when dealing with that company.

    #1991017
    Mary D
    BPL Member

    @hikinggranny

    Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge

    I, too, once received what was apparently a defective product from SMD. It was a pack, and after the second trip with it I noticed that the stitching between the pack body and extension collar was starting to unravel.

    I emailed Ron about this, just for his information–it was only a few stitches and I intended to do the repair myself. To my surprise, he offered to repair it for free, even though the pack had already been used. I originally said I'd bring the pack in–I live east of Portland and Ron lives just west of Portland. I decided, however, that I'd rather ship the pack than buck the horrible traffic through downtown Portland, so I mailed the pack. I didn't even think of asking Ron to pay the shipping charges. I received the pack back a few days later, with no charge to me either for Ron's shipping it to me (I could have driven over there, after all) or for the repair. The repair has held up, too!

    The return policy published on SMD's website clearly states that shipping is at the expense of the customer.
    http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/about-us/policies.html
    "… if for some reason your purchase from Six Moon Designs does not meet your needs, you may return any unused items within 30 days for a full refund (less shipping charges)."
    It appears to me that the original offer of free return shipping, contrary to the firm's published policy, was made only because the customer ordered a replacement item. Since the customer canceled the order for the replacement, he voided that agreement. That leaves the original published return shipping policy as the default.

    I urge everyone to check any vendor's website for their complete policies before ordering anything online. This is just plain common sense, along with making sure they have a phyiscal address, a working phone and that their odering site is secure. If you disagree with the vendor's return policies, don't order! Expecting instant return of emails or phone messages (I've rarely had this from big corporations, either) from a one or two person firm is extremely unrealistic. Most of these small firms have no employees to cover such things while they're gone.

    No, I have nothing to do with SMD except as an extremely infrequent customer. In fact, I've bought only two items from them, one being the above-mentioned pack, still going strong after 7 years. I tried one of their tents for a year and it didn't suit my sleeping style, so I sold it. There was nothing wrong with the tent; it just didn't work out for me. The current owner loves it, although he claims he's still finding my dog's hair in it!

    I do know that SMD has an outstanding reputation in the backpacking community, and it appears to me that this gentleman's problem has quite a bit to do with misunderstanding the communications and possibly taking insufficient time to check the firm's policies before ordering. Whatever your opinon as to what a firm's policy "should be," it's their standard published policy that governs the buy/sell contract.

    #1991019
    Kattt
    BPL Member

    @kattt

    Seems like the problem lies in the interpretation of " does not meet your needs"

    Edited for spelling.

    #1991023
    Cayenne Redmonk
    BPL Member

    @redmonk

    Locale: Greater California Ecosystem

    Thanks for the explanation Ron.

    You explained your view well.

    Your employees can not be trusted to be acting on behalf of your business. The agreements they make have no value, because you don't honor their word as the company.

    Oh, and you gouge in shipping and would rather keep $20 than the word a family member gave to a customer.

    Nice.

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