Gear Swap & Capilene

"If you want to complain about how a forum is being run and you are not a member, then you should become a member. There are member benefits that you are not privy to. Want the benefits, then you should become a member."

I see BPL as a community and I think the input of all members of the community paying or not, should be important. You don't need to become a member to offer constructive criticism about the forum. It's all the people on here, paying and otherwise, that make the community so great. I've been a member and probably will be again in the future. I don't think people are complaining to complain. I think that they're offering advice because they feel like the recent change was not a good decision for members and non members. At least that's how I feel about it and the sense I'm getting from reading other's comments.

"There is no bad attitude."

"As far as 'shutting up,' no one is saying that. But in this case the squeeking wheel is not going to get the grease."

I've seen a couple posts like this and I think that's what Greg was referring to.

M-O-O-N spells moon.
Stephen King references aside..
Bligh me!
I am a broke as son of a bitck.
I quit my job in 2009 to hike the Pacific Crest trail.. all 2,665 miles of her.
Then I quit the same job again to hike the Continental Divide Trail, covering, arguably, 2600+ miles.
I came back, joined BPL for 25 bucks and hiked the Appalachian trail at 2,180 miles.
I am a broke a$$ son-o-a-beotch cleaning people's dog qrap carpets for 8 bucks an hour.. yet i am going to renew my memebership on BPL to keep her alive.
Quit bitqhin and pay up!
By the way.. How do you know sir what it is that you are missing until you have access?
I suggest there is a LOT more to BPL than you "ALL" realize.
-iceaxe

PS I just renewed and it was $19.95
That is a pair of Fox river socks where I live.
I think the membership, and it's access to the articles, is worth a pair of socks.

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Wow.. you know.. my a$$ is still intact.
That did not hurt one bit in fact.
Crikey.. get over it already.. it's only money!

i find it quite amazing how many people here are broke … yet im sure quite a few people here manage to buy new shiny gear …

whether you choose to join BPL or not is your choice … however i found a way to afford it by not buying some gear i "wanted", but didnt "need" … now you dont "need" the BPL articles … but i havent seen much comparable on the web

where else can you get a test on the latest WPB $$$$ tech telling you that a cheap store branded rain jacket (stoic) performs as well or better than those $$$$ jackets … or a good systematic evaluation of jetboil stoves … or a measurable way to test and compare frameless pack systems … or an inflatable sleeping pad comparison that measures actual head to head R values

etc …

used intelligently BPL, IMO, can SAVE you more money that you would spend on it … by not buying stuff that is just marketing bullcr@p …

didnt the SOM down jacket comparison rate the EB FA down sweater better than the patagucci one? … thats the cost of a membership there should you have bought the "cheaper" over the more expensive one …

i simply wish BPL would also have a series of articles on light and AFFORDABLE gear …with the proliferation of outdoor gear at costco, target, REI, mec, etc … i think there is a very real demand for information where more "generic" copies can easily replace the "brand name" gear at little to no performance loss at 1/3-1/2 the cost … but thats another topic

I think, in your own way Eric, you 'agreed' with me.
Dude, i sure hope to meet you out on the trail some day.
Thats where all this internet 'innuendo' crap dissolves and we are brothers and sisters .. all of us.

////////I don't see where you are getting the arrogance from, Greg. I thnk a lot of members are concerned that we're going to lose a wonderful resource AND, YES, community, because of financial difficulties. At that point is it too much to ask for non members who are also benefitting from same to contribute to its success? If that is arrogant, then I guess I and many others are guilty as charged. No doubt, many non members contribute valuable information in their posts, but so do members. We are all equal in that regard, as far as I'm concerned, but the difference is that members of all stripes are also contributing financially to the upkeep of the website. Think about it.////////

Read Chases post in this thread and you see blatent arrogence. Others are veiled but it is there.

I dont think it is unreasonable for everyone to contribute to this forums success. The simple way to do that is have ads for non members. based on my general experiences with web based forums paying money to keep a forum running is not required. So the money from memberships shouldnt be going to forum upkeep. Traffic should be able to fund the site or something is wrong with the model.

^^^ what's eric said.

I subscribed BPL for $25, got a lot of scientific research material for gear, and save alot from article datas, gear deals, and gear swap.
Thank god I didnt subscribe for *** magazine and end buying all marketing crap I dont need.

My opinion is simply that and while I am apart of this community, I only attempt to post my own views. I say screwem and am overly prideful to the point of arrogance. I do not agree with non members being able to post anything…period. I do not think they should be allow in any forum, let alone gear swap (the one forum I actually put blind trust into). In the end of it all, the change is what it is, so deal because doubtfully a(or mutliple) b1tching nonmember(s) is going to change anything. If anything it makes me want you to leave even more.

Be a good boy/girl next year and ask Santa for a membership. Less for him to carry=UL pack

I'm pretty broke as well. Paid the fee for a lifetime membership when I received a small windfall.

Don't know if you'll find this interesting .

Over 90% of those who have donated funds to support the GGG have been members. Experience shows me that there are a lot of takersout there.

BPL has been important to me on many levels. I gladly support that. I would even pay a yearly subscription again, on top of my lifers.

""There is no bad attitude."

"As far as 'shutting up,' no one is saying that. But in this case the squeeking wheel is not going to get the grease."

I've seen a couple posts like this and I think that's what Greg was referring to."

yea. nothing like a great positive attitude there. I sure want to donate to that. :eyeroll: (again.. the admins would do well to shut THOSE people up cuz they are causing a negative reaction). being told your opinion doesn't matter is a GREAT advertising technique..

as far as the broke part. I'm not broke. but I am not in a place where throwing cash at unnecessary things is a good idea. Think of it as Ultralight. you cut down grams here and grams there and it adds up to a lot in the end. I don't drink, smoke, drink coffee, eat out a lot, etc. it adds up. I do not find the articles or selling gear incentive enough to buy a membership. and GUESS WHAT? i don't HAVE to. If this place goes in the tank then the owners did something fundamentally WRONG and let it. That is their own dam fault.

But as a few people have pointed out no one is changing their policy so they get to live with the consequences. I certainly won't change my mind on joining.

Jake said,"I do not find the articles or selling gear incentive enough to buy a membership. and GUESS WHAT? i don't HAVE to. If this place goes in the tank then the owners did something fundamentally WRONG and let it. That is their own dam fault."

I would like to know you have read the articles and have found this NOT to be an incentive if you have not been a member?

Regardless, BPL has been around for over 10 years and has not been driven by the gear sell forum. I think it has avoided 'the tank' quite well.

The great thing about the research that BPL does? You get to hopefully purchase once rather than follow the cycle of buy, sell, buy, sell, buy, sell, etc. Guess what? It can save you money in the long run.

With respect to those who only want to use the forums for selling gear, when you use Ebay you have listing and selling fees that are fairly substantial. Look at it this way, a $25 annualy fee that lets you sell as much gear as your heart desires should be considered an absolute bargain, especially on a unitized basis.

Ah this thread is rather interesting.

I had been a member here for four or five years before I decided to not renew my membership.

The decision not to renew was a hard one but not for concern about loosing access to valued information but instead out of a feeling of 'owing' BPL for using their forms.

I then realized that unlike when I first came to this site was no longer a non contributing member and in fact spent more time answering questions in the form rather than asking them. I was't reading any of the articles for their educational value but was simply reading them because I had paid for them. I also took a hard look at the changes and direction the site was going and didn't like what I saw.

Once I realized that I took some of the great lessons I learned from members of this site, lighted up my life and decided why pay for and figuratively carry around something I'm not using? Sure $25 isn't much money in a yearly budget but it's the principle of the thing. Just like in UL backpacking half and ounce here and there can add up; for me the same goes for luxury spending.

Now I plan on continuing to use the forms here and check in on the articles every so often. If I see an article that sounds informative I'll purchase it. If the site and articles improve I'll be the first in line to renew my membership but right now I have better things to spend $25 on.

The attitude in this thread is that Everyone should be a member. I do not want to pay to read the M articles. I do not CARE. I am perfectly happy reading the general discussions and free articles. I could care less if one alcohol stove i do not own can boil water 15 seconds faster than another alcohol stove i do not own. Or if a new frameless pack i do not own comes out with a glowing review.

There are plenty of places to sell gear for free that are not Ebay.

And there has been much talk about the site needing $$ so it doesn't matter that it's been around for 10yrs it can still go away if the funding isn't right.

keep trying to convince me though.. you're *almost* doing it… ;)

Chase Norton

"My opinion is simply that and while I am apart of this community, I only attempt to post my own views. I say screwem and am overly prideful to the point of arrogance. I do not agree with non members being able to post anything…period. I do not think they should be allow in any forum, let alone gear swap (the one forum I actually put blind trust into). In the end of it all, the change is what it is, so deal because doubtfully a(or mutliple) b1tching nonmember(s) is going to change anything. If anything it makes me want you to leave even more.

Be a good boy/girl next year and ask Santa for a membership. Less for him to carry=UL pack"

So you paid $25 to hear yourself talk and troll? Isn't that what your twitter account is for? ;)

""""""""/////Someone suggested limiting gear swap to paying members and it got a lot of support. So for the most part from what I saw, the biggest $$ contributors were for it…and for others…well there is a saying about beggars…////

This part of the post is representive of some of the arrogence on this thread that members have. I don't understand where that arrogence comes from. Essentially you bought a magazine subscription and found value in that magazine subscription.

Even the idea that members or life members should have some say in how the site is run is quite interesting. As really you are just a customer in a buisness not a member in a comunity run group or co-op. Now the ownership can choose to engage its customers or it can choose to ignore them but that is entirely up to ownership. Being a member doesn't make you special or better. It just gives you different privaleges. """""""""""""

Greg,

I don't where you get that as arrogance. I was explaining how the policy came about as best I can. As for beggars can't be choosers…I find it slightly head scratching that you couldn't be bothered to pay the price to join in order to have a say in the discussion yet now choose to complain.

Of course life members have some say in how the site is run. That was one of the perks when we purchased a lifetime membership. "Participation in Backpacking Light's strategic planning process " It is stated quite clearly as a membership benefit. Now ownership can ignore our imput but we are allowed (actually requested) to have imput on certain issues.

Todd Dea,

"An infinitely better solution would be to have as a policy in the gear swap :

"Welcome to the Gear Swap. Unlimited posting in this section is a benefit of membership. Guests will be allowed a maximum of five (5) "gear for sale" postings before being required to become a member . . .

A possible addition to the above (or as an alternative to . . ) why not have another level of membership called a "buy & sell" member. Maybe charge $10-12 dollars for this level and all they get over and above what a guest receives is the ability to sell gear.

Might these suggestions cost some money in software upgrades ? Absolutely, but in the long run it would be pennies compared to any policy which will scare people away . ."

Very interesting solutions. I think that you should join up if you come up with solid ideas like this!

I'll post it in the premium forum for ya.

@Jake – I am trying!

don't hold your breath ;)

The actual singular gear reviews are not plentiful. Instead, there are discussions on sleeps systems, tarping above treeline, WP fabric technology and independent testing, independent r-value tesing of sleeping pads, etc. These are the articles that make it worthwhile.

Just think about how much beer you spilled at the bar last week. That alone would cover a membership.

What a silly thread. BPL decides to implement a rule, which they have a 100% right to, and things blow up.

It appears that they're encouraging membership. Why would they do that? Revenue. They could have chosen to raise prices on membership instead, which would have not only upset the yearly paying members, but anyone else looking to join. So instead of putting a larger burden on renewing members and new signees, they decided to make Gear Swap a partial member perk that encourages people to sign up. From what I understand, you can still purchase items; you just can't start a new thread. Correct me if I'm incorrect.

I'm going to have to agree with Michael that beggars can't be choosers. Of course it would be nice if Gear Swap remained totally free, but to scream about the change as a non-paying member seems to be more arrogant than BPL and its paying members encouraging more financial support.

Jake, just an observation:

You wrote: "back to lurking the gear swap. I came here for that, thought there would be more, there isn't."

This is a perfectly valid personal view on whether or not the information on BPL is valuable to you. But then, you also wrote:

"I do not want to pay to read the M articles. I do not CARE. I am perfectly happy reading the general discussions and free articles. I could care less if one alcohol stove i do not own can boil water 15 seconds faster than another alcohol stove i do not own. Or if a new frameless pack i do not own comes out with a glowing review."

This is also a perfectly valid opinion! However, do you see the the irony? If you don't CARE, then why would you expect there to be more to BPL than just the gear swap? If you don't care about member articles, then it is hard for you to complain that there 'isn't more' to the site. I'm glad you enjoy the forums. We all do. But if you don't care about the fine details of stove performance, or product reviews, what is it that you're looking for here? That type of information is largely what BPL is for. You can't eat an apple and expect it to taste like a banana.

I was mostly being snarky about the not being more bit. but it is still not worth $25 a year for me.

I mostly think they are going about gaining revenue the wrong way. I believe a few small ads placed in the gutter in the big white blank space usually dedicated for ads would be more sustainable and probably more profitable than charging folks to sell gear.

i do not like the attitude that people should feel obligated or guilt tripped into buying a membership. If people want to use all the free aspects of the site they should do so.

honestly, i'm not looking for much more here. i found a new tent, sleeping pad, pillow, pack, daypack (only 3 of those bought here) I've absorbed some theory and technique from others gear lists and until I can take them all out in the spring i'm a bit stuck.

i've been spending more time on Whiteblaze since my goal for the summer is the Long trail and i feel there is more local information there than on here. there may not be as man folks there with cuben tarps and 5lb base weights but there are plenty of triple crowns to know stuff about long hikes.

Wow – arguing for the sake of arguing.

After seven pages of 'debate' do you think that your single post will make Jake fall down upon his knees and proclaim that he was mistaken and is now saved?

Geese guys you sure do like to argue with yourselves and beat a horse to death. Oddly enough before the MLIFE and the 'privileges' that go along with it's membership this never seemed to happen.

hey chad i wonder if Majid would be interested in backpacking accidents……….. buahahahhaaaa

anyway i'm done. i've said what i need to. we can sit back and wait to see what happens. if they do not see any help from this change then maybe they will change it back.

>After seven pages of 'debate' do you think that your single post will make Jake fall down upon his knees and proclaim that he was mistaken and is now saved?

Nah, I've no illusions about ever trying to change someone's mind, especially on the internet. As a participant on the forums, I was simply sharing my thoughts. Regarding Jake, I noticed an odd dichotomy between his two statements and was looking to see what he wanted to get out of BPL, which he politely explained.

To me articles aren't a draw. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing…for example: an article about the most recent WPB isn't a draw at all. I think it been pretty well established that something can be waterproof or breathable (with some minor variation) so it's more a technique choice and I don't need someone to tell me that the marketing departments at business trying to sell $300-$500 jackets are lying. To me the more you read about the 'latest and greatest' the more you 'need' it and you tend to buy things you probably wouldn't otherwise. I agree with someone who said a bigger draw would be more MYOG articles, though I know not everyone is into making their own gear.

Someone mentioned this a few pages ago, but if BPL is so strapped for cash why don't they turn to the people who benefit financially the most? The businesses that come here to 'discuss' their products. Some don't even have memberships. I say discuss because how could it be viewed as anything but an advertisement? Would it be unreasonable to expect them to pay more, like a commercial membership or something?

Well some of us have been members in the past, so its not accurate that all non-members havn't contributed. In fact some non-menbers have put more money into BPL that current MLife members. Not that anyone cares or should really. I have been a member way back at magazine issue #2. I just don't need to read any more articles as good as they are. I feel I have a handle on what it is I need to be safe and comfortable. I come here because the forums are the most interesting part of the site to me. If BPL seriously ramps up the number of articles and reviews I would consider a subscription again. A Backpacker or Outdoor mag has more info and articles per month than this online mag does. plus I get lots of great pic heavy reviews at blogs and forums. BPLs reviews kind of trickle slowly in at seemingly random times. There are so many people here that would love to do reviews for this site that I don't really understand why its so thin on content.
I used the gear swap alot, but I know no one is going care if they inconvenience me. besides I don't think Im a very popular person on these forums, even I think I come off as contrarian, combative, and abrasive ( Im working on it).
Bottom line is backpacking is just one of many interests and I would actually be better off spending less time here.