Gear Swap & Capilene

This thread is good conversation and should continue unless folks get nasty. Lets look at the facts, and hope that Ryan Jordan does too.

Many people do not see the value in any kind of a paid membership for BPL in its current format. That is a fact. The fact cannot be changed, and it might be a lot of people, because not everyone is posting their opinion.

No matter how much anyone tries to challenge, debate, argue the point, call other names, etc.; it probably is not going to change the minds of people who do not see the value of purchasing a membership.

Now Ryan needs to look at the number of paying members, the number of non-paying numbers and figure out how he is going to finance BPL. Does he want to risk losing non-paying members, or does he want to somehow generate income from them via other methods, such as advertisements. BTW, if ads are utilized and are paid via a per-click method, it is unethical just to click ads to help the site generate income. Those ads need to generate a real interest in the reader. Google will pull AdSense if this happens.

Roger Caffin posted a while back that we are elite. I cannot speak to Roger's intent, but to me lightweight backpackers on BPL are an elite, paying or non-paying; not those who pony up some money to join BPL.

My 7 cents worth of opinion.

Nick I agree with you compleatly with the exception of your last line:

"I cannot speak to Roger's intent, but to me lightweight backpackers on BPL are an elite, paying or non-paying; not those who pony up some money to join BPL."

As this thread has show there are paying members who feel they are elite simply because they have a subscription to BPL. Several of these self titled elite members have little or no experience with backpacking, UL or otherwise and feel that their views should have more weight because they have a membership here. I feel that this is a potentially disastrous attitude to have as it could give BPL a very bad name and drive away members and non members alike who are a wealth of information in the forms.

BPL is not an elite … the true elite are those going off doing the craziest things with the least …

everyone here including myself is typing on the intrawebs …

BPL is a place where certain people gather who want to go a bit lighter … there may be some "elite" members … but those people are probably in NG or other such for the elite as well …

the rest of use are simply weekend warriors … or under/unemployed bums who go out as much as they reasonably can

I agree with you Eric that the majority of us here are weekend warriors, there is nothing wrong with that.

Unfortunately there are a number of vocal users here to like to 'talk big' and act like they are be all of UL backpacking when in fact they are nothing but someone who purchased a MLIFE membership and have little actual real life experience backpacking.

I guess I will chime in here with my opinion.

I personally would never pay a subscription to an internet site. Perhaps I am old school, but paid subscriptions are for hard copies, a shiny magazine I can hold and carry with me. Even those I don't buy, but I do like to recieve them as gifts.

I see zero value in becoming a paid member. I don't need the articles. "Paid member" creates an illusion of superiority, and I know that is a big draw for some….not all of course, but some. The embarrassing comments by some paid members in this thread is laughable….and I know I am not the only one laughing at your silly illusions of self importance.

BPL staff: I do commend you for trying to keep this place less commercialized. I don't know the first thing about running an internet buisness, but it seems you're a bit stuck with lifetime memberships…..you can't take that back and switch up the program without refunds.

In the end I find ads much less offensive than a big ego with a paid membership. Food for thought.

"Read Chases post in this thread and you see blatent arrogence. Others are veiled but it is there."

One poster is not representative of what has been posted here by members. As for others being veiled, maybe you're being a bit hypersensitive?

"I dont think it is unreasonable for everyone to contribute to this forums success. The simple way to do that is have ads for non members. based on my general experiences with web based forums paying money to keep a forum running is not required. So the money from memberships shouldnt be going to forum upkeep. Traffic should be able to fund the site or something is wrong with the model."

Maybe, maybe not. I think it would be a huge risk to try and run a website that way, and I don't see how you can make that statement unless you know how many non members we're talking about and how much it costs to run BPL. Do you? If so, would you mind sharing that info with the rest of us? It might also be a value judgment on the part of BPL management about how they want to present BPL. Heretofore, it has been largely clear of the ads that so annoyingly clutter most other websites, and a lot of us would like to keep it that way including, I'll bet, a substantial number of non members. Do you have any idea how many non members would be driven away when faced with the prospect of sorting out the wheat of content from the chaff of ads? Again, if so, would you be willing to share that info with us.

And now, Greg, I've just got come out and ask a question that has been burning a hole in my head: Can you really not afford ~5.6 cents/day for what you enjoy here? This is based on Nick's calculation of 7 cents/day @ $25/year x .8(based on a membership fee of $19.95 recently quoted by a recently renewed member).

Joseph, I think you are making the same mistake that some mlifers are making: putting others down based on their membership status.
Some of us have paid for a yearly or life subscription, not to get any extra perks or more say or any other benefit, but merely to support a website and a community that we really enjoy.

I do not make that mistake, but I can see how my post made it seem that way. You do raise an important point none the less, so thank you :-). If you re-read my post I didn't blanket all members, just the ones that made arrogant comments toward non paying members in this thread.

I hope I do not offend anyone, perhaps I am overstepping boundries here, but why does one feel they need to support ultralight backpacking? I have supported many many causes before but it just suprises me as this is a hobby, not a charity AFAIK. I do not mean that in a condescending way at all, just curious.

Fair enough, Joseph.
As far as "supporting" BPL…..just so it can exist and we can read and learn and debate and share. No, not essential, but enjoyable enough to care that it continue.

//////////And now, Greg, I've just got come out and ask a question that has been burning a hole in my head: Can you really not afford ~5.6 cents/day for what you enjoy here? This is based on Nick's calculation of 7 cents/day @ $25/year x .8(based on a membership fee of $19.95 recently quoted by a recently renewed member).////////

I could easily affor 5.6 cents per day to become a member here for what I enjoy here however I frequent about 5 different forums regularly and probably another 5 or 6 infrequently. (The joys of an office job with a highly varried workload). So if I had to pay out of pocket for all the forums I visit I would start spending a meaningful amount of money. But then it isn't really about money anyways. More about the principle of paying for access. I am okay with paying for content but I definately object to paying for access.

Now I am not really interested in the articles, I think this is a consistant theme amoung those who choose not to be members and really the gear swap issue doesn't really affect me too much so what I am paying the $20 membership fee for? I think many people see this as a community run site and donate to keep the community healthy regardless of the value they get out of the articles and other membership benefits. For me I see this site as a buisness, an online magazine with a group of dedicated readers with similar interests. OTher than the lack of blatent commercialization I don't see this site any differently then other magazines online forums. The contributers here have fantastic specific knowledge and that is what sets it apart, not the paid content.

As for the site income and financial situation I do not know anything about it. I just look at the numorous other sites I have belonged to in various capacities and they did not have membership fees for forums. So I am advocating that the buisness model be changed here to maximize the value of non-members. Right now I contribute nothing to the financial well-being of the website and I would like that to change without me having to spend out of pocket.

Really I got sucked into this discussion because I am concerned at the direction the site is going and am trying to positively suggest ways that it can be improved and be sustainalbe.

"enjoyable enough to care that it continue."

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole debate. Well played Kat.

Ryan

"I hope I do not offend anyone, perhaps I am overstepping boundries here, but why does one feel they need to support ultralight backpacking? I have supported many many causes before but it just suprises me as this is a hobby, not a charity AFAIK. I do not mean that in a condescending way at all, just curious."

Joseph, I support BPL simply for my own self-interest. The value for me is that I enjoy it, have learned quite a bit, plan to stick around for a while, and hope is stays in business. I have no interest in "supporting ultralight backpacking" per se, as a matter of fact I would be completely thrilled if most people continue to use very heavy gear… keeps the rift-raft and over population out of the solitary places I enjoy. Since I don't backpack with others, there is no one to "convert."

If it goes away I will continue to hike. I do not visit any other BPing sites at all. I like the community here. There are a lot of very smart people with huge diversity, and there are a lot of really nice people. I even enjoy the people I debate in Chaff!

For me it is going to church, except I am not expected to tithe and convert non-believers to "the way, the truth, and the life." There is no correct or right way to hike, but sharing what works for different people is enjoyable.

Hi, Joseph – here's my opinion on your question:

I see BPL as providing resources for info and ideas related to an activity I enjoy very much — lightweight backpacking. Those resources include in-depth reviews and comparisons of gear, articles about different skills and techniques, and trip reports describing many different places and experiences, and other such stuff.

I've never even considered that giving support to BPL's existence was a matter of gaining "status" or championing a "cause" — but merely gaining more access to information and ideas that help me enjoy backpacking more.

Supporting BPL makes sense to me for those reasons, and even more so since I've followed this website — and learned a lot from it — for most of the time that it has been in existence, growing even better as a great resource over the years.

Just speaking for myself, of course.

PS – since your question was presented in the context of all the hub-bub and name-calling about the rule change for selling gear thru the "gear swap" forum, I would like to add that my only complaint about that forum (and another forum totally unrelated to backpacking) was the fact that the "most recent posts" was getting so swamped with "gear swap" postings and postings for that other forum that it was becoming difficult to easily find "most recent" postings re backpacking forums.

My suggestion to BPL for solving the above "problem" (for me) was to move "gear swap" (along with that other forum) to a different location on the website, or at least provide a means for each user to screen those two forums out so their postings don't appear when accessing the "recent posts" listing.

+1 to Nick's post.

And Richards.

Kat, Nick, Richard, thank you for tidying up my cynical outlook on this matter. Common sense does tell me a vast minority would not have such egocentric motivations discussed above. It doesn't mean I like the idea of paid forum members, but that's simply my opinion, it certainly doesn't keep me from reading these forums.

By the way Nick I am a local from the other side of the mountain now living in Hemet. I wonder if we have crossed paths up there over the years but not sure. I enjoyed your trip reports of your death marches up there. Have you explored Oak Creek Canyon south of red tahquitz off the pct? I have always wondered about that area….a worthy destination?

25$ is nothing….but I personally am not that attached to this site, or any web site I guess. I certainly dont expect or even want everyone to agree on that.

I pay for two other sites. Not BP related. 120 and 90 a year.

When I "joined" I decided to pay for the life membership because I figured it would be cheaper than the annual if I stuck around. Plus at the time 100 bucks was nothing honestly.

I joined versus staying a guest for the same reason I buy an annual np park pass. I support what I like. I have never gotten my money back on the pass but I feel the extra cash over what I'd pay for singular visits help keep what I like going.

So a hundred bucks ONCE is nothing compared to the annual money I pay for others. I mainly enjoy trip reports and articles like the pct vortex and balls and sunshine and the couple who honeymOoned around the world. I consider myself the least experienced guy on here btw!

But I have been repaid my membership alone by the great recommendations, trip reports, and time waisted on here. My desk job can be very slow.

The thing that I have always loved about the internet is the free Exchange of information. It creates this beautiful communal vibe. Respect is earned on merit. Sharing for the love of it instead of looking to make a buck. A little purity is lost in profit I feel, but perhaps cynicism is once again rearing its ugly head.

I know forum hosting isn't free, but it is relatively cheap. I would be more inclined to donate to a website than to purchase a right to participate.

This is all off topic and more philosophical discussion on pay sites. My square peg comments in this post do not fit in the round hole of BPL.

I apologize for beating the dead horse I came in late to the discussion and it sparked some thought in my noggin. I'll let it be unless something new emerges.

"Have you explored Oak Creek Canyon south of red tahquitz off the pct? I have always wondered about that area….a worthy destination?"

Do you mean Oak Canyon and/or Live Oak Canyon about 8 miles above the PCT Junction on HWY 74 in Garner Valley? Those two I have knocked around quite a bit. There are a couple ancient trails off Palm Canyon (up from Palm Springs or down from Ribbonwood). Pretty dry and a lot chaparral (my kind of hiking). There some greenery around Live Oak Spring, which normally has water most of the year. Yeah, for me it is a worthy destination. My wife and I often do several different long loops in the area for day hikes and we normally see no one around unless it is the time of year when the PCT thru hikers are passing by, but they stick to the PCT.