Gear Swap & Capilene

"Trust me, I know these things."

Then how do top flite sites like CandlePower Forums, BushcraftUSA, and Hammock Forums do such a great job of providing an excellent community experience? You don't have to pay a dime to participate fully on those sites.

If BPL wanted to do a better job, they could. And I'm not saying they should or they have to. They can do whatever they want just like anyone else. Any of us here are free to not surf BPL and do something better on our own if we can't put up with BPL's site.

But the idea that we're stuck with this poor setup because the hurdles are just too high simply ain't so.

Vendors should pay to advertise in gear swap. Guests and general members who don't own a business should not. How many cottage vendors rely solely on BPL for revenue?

I had a Rab citrus wind jacket that I got for $50 that I was going to pass along at cost since it didn't fit, but I couldn't post since I'm not a member. I had to return it rather than paying it forward. The classified traffic is going to diminish, and the classifieds drives interest and new membership.

There are many sweetheart deals that will no longer be offered due to a short-sighted forum decision.

You want to attract new paying members because they want to join, not because they have to.

I'm not sure why they just put a restriction on new threads – to be honest people can still PM the sellers but members loose out because we have fewer items listed and the same competition for them. That just seems silly to me.
I think the way to do that is to completely blank out the forum to Guests if its a membership premium. Would reduce gearswap traffic though, I suspect members would be able to keep it going though.

What would have been smart is if there was a delay on the forum that allowed members to get first dibs, and then some time later allow everyone else to see it. Anyone could still post an ad though.

Unlikely. you figure there aren't all that many members in the grand scheme of things.

Taking away features is a great way to push folks away. Between Mountain project, Whiteblaze, craigslist, ebay,etc plenty of places to list items for free.

personally, I found this site searching for a daypack at the gear forum came up in a search. I bought that, then a tent and was generously given a pillow since then. I don't really have an interest in the main articles but like the general forum discussions. I won't pay $ to sell gear here.

Making you have a minimum of 25 or whatever posts in non-chaff threads before you can post in the gear sale… that might be more fair.

Making you have a minimum of 25 or whatever posts in non-chaff threads before you can post in the gear sale… that might be more fair.

That does sound totally reasonable.

Talk about killing the goose that laid the golden eggs . . .

The gear swap is what has been driving people to this site. It truly has become THE place to buy & sell backpacking gear. Any business person with half a brain would LOVE to have the "problem" of trying to figure out how to convert all these "guests" in to paying members. For god sake though even a child would be smart enough to know better than to make any change that might stifle the inflow of people and/or gear.

Everyone benefits when there are more items being offered for sale INCLUDING the site. If the owners of this site can't figure out how they benefit then they should really look into hiring a person or two with a little business acumen.

I've owned my own business for 18 years. For the life of me I don't think I've ever seen a more potentially damaging business decision than one like this which will inevitably drive away potential business (membership, BPL product sales, etc) and take this site back years in it's growth or development cycle.

Craziness . . .

I'm definitely not thinking this is smart move. Like others have said, the gear swap is what drives BPL, a lot people come here because it is by far the best place to sell/buy UL gear. People come here to sell their stuff, get involved with the community, and end up buying the membership. That's exactly what I did, I wasn't a member for a long time, but constantly checked the site for deals. I found myself reading more and more articles and threads though when I came to search the gear swap, and then truly saw the value of a membership by being able to read the various articles.

I think BPL needs to think this one out a little more…

There's no need to worry non-members, you can simply paypal $10 to me and I'll list an item on your behalf :)

I say to hell with nonmembers. Get a sub or get out and complain somewhere else. There are many sites to sell your gear so go. I never knew nonmembers could sell items previously which seems ridiculous. I think we should remove their ability to reply to posts as well. Also, they should be required to sew an identifier on their packs so I can punch them on the trail.

There are frequent posts complaining about the functionality of the BPL website.

Am I the only one who likes it?

I like the open space, makes it easy to read. There is not too much information plastered all over the screen, the chronological order of the posts is easy to follow, etc.

I do wish the search function was better. If I'm searching for something in particular, I just come at it through Google.

I have a hunch that it's the more computer savvy people that want to see changes. Am I wrong there?

Would someone be able to post a link to a website with a forum format that they like better? Outside of the backpacking field, of course.

> Vendors should pay to advertise in gear swap. Guests and general members who don't own a business should not.

Actually, commercial vendors are not allowed to use Gear Swap: they must use Gear Deals. Only BPL Members selling unwanted personal bits and pieces are allowed to use Gear Swap. This rule cuts down on spam.

Should you see a posting which seems to violate this rule, please Report it (there's a button).

Cheers

I am with you David. A little tweaking. But we know Ryan will do what Ryan wants, like it or not. So hold on, it gonna be a bumpy ride…

“Would someone be able to post a link to a website with a forum format that they like better? Outside of the backpacking field, of course.”

the appearance is fine. the post threading and stuff is ancient.

quote function, clickable links(either automatic or a tag, PM system that isn’t stupid (pm should be automatic and be internal to the board.. not just a link to your email…). having the thread titles change is confusing, inside the thread ok but externally on the main list makes it hard it hard to find/follow.

Rockclimbing.com, mountainproject.com beesource.com, bikeforums.net, gunks.com…. take a look

No experience driving sites here, but if all those free websites exist to sell gear, another is irrelevant no? I've bought and resold a ton of gear hear to test items and I'll continue to do so. I've never used schmeg's list of fleabay. Here when I buy from someone it's a better deal and I have paid member recourse if I bought an orange sold as an apple. I bought a lifetime membership as a thanks for the hosting of such a venue that let me try an industry's gear and find my loved setup. I for one don't think it'll hurt the site overall, and now I'm double glad I bought a membership to the site and enjoy giving back for all ive gained, which is considerable. Nothing in life is free, you get what you pay for, and fairness is in the eye of the one who took the leadership role in setting this whole BPL up. (Ryan) So use it as catalyst for change and do what he did, only better and totally free! That's the beauty of it. Holding soggy Wheaties on your spoon seems pointless. And my transaction trust just went way up. I for one say thanks Ryan, and now I have a perfect gift for two people this year.

I am sure this was NOT a decision taken lightly. BPL did some examination, thought, checks, some crude cost analysis (informal) on the cost of operating the Gear Swap vs the actual benefit and had a discussion amungst owner/staff/life members of BPL.
The overwhelming thought there was that swap needs to be regulated…somehow. One member did a survey (informal) and found close to 40% of the traffic was on Swap. A FAST internet connection, computers, backups, software, large disks & multiple arrays, the shell everyone see's on the net, the OS, anti-spam, anti-hacking, housing, power & it's backups, staff expenses, etc., all costs dollars…LOTS of dollars. Ask Roger if he could make a living off BPL… I am betting not. Nor can they really compete with soliciting articals from caliber writers like Will, Janet, Damien, Roger, Danny, Ray, Eric, David, Mike just to put a name on a few. BPL always seems like it is giving more to the comunity than it ever gets back…even at the cost of a membership(regular or lifetime.) With the rising cost of goods and services in a floundering economy BPL has little choice: go out of business, raise prices, reduce costs.

Regarding swap,
1) Several people looked like they were regular visitors on Swap. Some were not members.
2) A discussion of charging per item was raised and rejected for now.
3) A decision was taken to restrict swap to MEMBERS for original postings. A membership is required for selling there.
4) Increased monitoring for semi-comercial non-members USING swap to operate some or part of their home business.

The overall goals are to reduce costs, add value to members (by reducing ovearall site bandwidth,) increase membership by requiring membership to swap(adding incoming dollars directly and indirectly through popups,) and , more as a side benefit, generally reducing the ammount of non-lightweight gear being posted. It will also increase the overall quality of the posts by restricting to members (a "known" person) and reduce computer usage generally slightly. And membership comes with a new benefit, being ABLE to post on swap. The effect on site quality and its focus on light weight packing *should* be restored more in line with Ryan's original intent. There are other things I am sure I am not aware of…and my poor thought process is simply not thinking of.

As with all goal oriented activities, there are always downsides. In this case, obviously there will be some objection by non-members. Equally obvious, their option is to purchase a membership if they consider it worth while to post there. Since a life time membership can be cheaper in the long run, They should also consider a life membership to have a "voice" in the site management. Having a voice will insure that your message will be read and not dismissed as chaff. To a non-member this is unimportant. Only to a salesperson on swap, would such things be important. Without the non-member postings, also goes the non-member seller. To me this is not bad, since some offers/purchases are more along the lines of a pawn shop offering than used lightweight gear. But many non-members will consider it so and go elswhere. Ebay is an obvious example often used on swap. The exposure BPL recieves from swap is, perhaps, the biggest down side. As was stated, this IS a source of new members. So, this could well backfire, but, in regards to the benefits, the overall cost/benefit analysis should show within 6 months. As with any electronic media, it CAN be changed back with only small effects on the overall site. The small population of non-members who actually post a FS message on swap is small compared to the number of members on the site as a whole. They are disproportionally large on swap, though. The purchasers, whether member or non-member, are not effected in any way.

Yeah maybe another site selling stuff is irrelevant but, 1. I've never heard of any of the sites other than Hammock Forums that anyone has mentioned here, 2. more than half of them are aimed at subsets of backpacking that I don't do (aka climbing and bushcraft)so for me this was one of the only places to buy gear.

It still is. The gear is here, the postings are here, if this is your subset market, then become a member and keep the subset operational!

I don't know much about business, so I can't say if it is a good decision or not. But, I do know that people selling on gear swap are receiving a great benefit.

I posted a couple of months ago asking about a cottage company that rented gear out (a theoretical company for a school course), with the option to purchase it if they liked it, and whether BPL users would like this service. The responses showed that it would not do well mostly because of BPL gear swap.

The swap forum is supposed to just be for selling gear, but in reality it creates a rental service for gear. It allows users to buy cottage gear, which you can't try at a store or even see most of the time, and "return" it if the product isn't what they needed in the end. This service is one you have to pay for in nearly every other market. Netflix will let you rent a movie, but they charge a monthly fee. REI will let you return whatever you want and they don't charge you, but the cost is that they don't have the ability to sell the items most UL hikers want because they can't afford to. I rarely use gear swap (sold one item), but from perusing it over the last year, this seems to me the be the most common use of the forum. If you think of it in this way, why wouldn't you have to pay for it here if you have to pay for it everywhere else? Plus, the fee that is charged, a $25 yearly charge (less with a member's discount for subsequent years), is very reasonable.

Obviously, this same functionality could be done through any site, but it seems to me that helping BPL stay functioning would be best for the UL community. It is correct that there are other sites that often hit UL topics, but BPL is the only one that speaks solely on it and with such great knowledge.

James Marco

" A FAST internet connection, computers, backups, software, large disks & multiple arrays, the shell everyone see's on the net, the OS, anti-spam, anti-hacking, housing, power & it's backups, staff expenses, etc., all costs dollars…LOTS of dollars"

This is pretty disengenous. All of the "internet connections, computers, backups, multiple arrays" should be handled by your host. This is like saying your salad is expensive because it includes "lettuce, tomatoes, olives, onions". It's all in the same package that you pay for.

I ran an internet forum in university and had several thousand users, with hundreds on at a time. It worked faster than BPL and I paid $100 per year, and I had LOTS of hosting power left over (I overpaid). By the way I don't see any investments in the forum to improve its functionality. How much staff expenses does it take to monitor the swap forum, which gets 10-20 new threads per day? Comeon.

"add value to members (by reducing ovearall site bandwidth,)"

This is particularly Orwellian. Yeah members will benefit by seeing less stuff to buy so the site will be faster. HUGE benefit. Even better don't look at the site and your time spent loading will be zero.

"And membership comes with a new benefit, being ABLE to post on swap"

But it's not a new benefit, members could post there before. I really hope this quality of thinking isn't share by the admins of this board.

BPL membership is a bargain and you're supporting an information source that you can't beg borrow or steal anywhere else: the yearly membership is about the same as one book. I think it is interesting to note that there are what– three books in print on UL hiking?

FYI, Hammock Forums requires a certain number of posts to list on their for-sale forum and member status for accessing the non-hammock forums. Another thing to note is that Hammock Forums doesn't allow requiring personal payment options for transactions via PayPal.

For comparison, Knifeforums.com charges a commission of $1 per knife posted for sale by non-dealers and a healthy fee for dealers, IIRC, like hundreds of dollars per year.

Bladeforums.com requires a membership to post for sale items and again, a healthy fee for dealers to advertise. They do allow non-members to post in the trade forum.

I think BPL should have paid dealer's forums and some gutter ads. I have zero problems with member-only posting on the Gear Swap forum. If nothing else, it provides another layer of security for the buyers.

Comparing BPL and eBay, you will end up paying about 14% for a transaction when sold on eBay and much more complexity. Some items will bring a higher price on eBay, many won't. BPL sales are light years faster and it goes to a community where it is appreciated. BPL buyers are also much more education in the features, use and limitations of UL gear.

Even if membership was free for me I object to restrictions on gear swap because I believe non-members aren't going to invest time shopping in a venue they can't sell on. Also as someone with an awareness of marginal hosting costs, it's also the principle of paying a markup of 100000% (5 zeroes, ie 1000x) for something every other forum I use offers for free.

Maybe if you told me to invest in BPL before these changes I would be able to consider it, but regardless of the price I now have to hold back 2-6 months to see if there is a precipitous drop in use the swap area and forum in the general.

BPL is by far not the only place to swap gear and people backpacking are going to be frugal and smart. Most people use gear for functionality, not to collect them. I've never heard of these knife forums. But perhaps why these two knife collecting forums can charge fees, because (1) they are highly specialized in a way an outdoors equipment forum will never be and (2) are more likely to involve people collecting items that don't add alot of marginal value beyond the 2nd or 3rd item, ie collecting.

Also these eBay comparisons are ridiculous. Let's stop posting them. I'm not going to move to eBay but other forums.

If you ever sold or bought on eBay, you would know there is ALOT more machinery going on than an internet forum. Noone here monitors feedback, answers customer complaints, administrates dispute processes, monitors abuse with algorithms, has a nice search feature with hundreds of categories and product details. There's about 20 threads max a day vs (10000-100000??) ALOT more on eBay. Also eBay was a monopoly, so it could charge pretty high fees, which was strongly resented by many of its seller. Now it is bleeding market share to Amazon.

"…I believe non-members aren't going to invest time shopping in a venue they can't sell on."

Wow. Imagine that. Frankly, I am not impressed with this giant rummage sale, so I neither buy nor sell. I'm only here for the free beer.

–B.G.–

I help moderate and admin a large motorcycle forum with around 40,000 members. All content is free for all members including the classifieds. In fact, I've help run numerous motorcycle forums, all very profitable.

Revenue is generated by having vendors either pay for banner ads or pay for the right to discuss their gear in a vendor forum.

If you took all the vendors (both mainstream and cottage) who have financially benefited from posting their goods in "Gear Deals" and had them support the forums for a monthly fee, not only would BPL turn a profit, but the money topic would disappear.

If a company advertises in a magazine, it's for a monthly fee. But yet, for profit companies can post their wares in "Gear Deals" for free and benefit financially for only the cost of a membership. See the issue here? Some cottage vendors only advertising is on BPL. Heck, it's cheap compared to all other mediums.

I'll be joining as a member soon and all of this will be moot for me. However, I do think by limiting functionality of "guests" or non-paying members does hurt traffic and future new membership.

With most all forum-based sites, the classifieds generate the highest traffic and for good reason. This pulls in new members.

The technical articles are enough draw for me to join. Not the ability to post in the classifieds. However, if money is an issue around here and is limiting growth, BPL needs to lean on the vendors who use BPL as a vehicle to generate revenue rather than limiting functionality of the masses.

Food for thought.

I believe this site doesn't want vendors to pay for advertising because readers might perceive that it influences the outcome of their reviews.