Gear Swap & Capilene

Diego, as my previous comments show, I agree with you. At best, the benefits of gear swap is unchanged for members. Realistically, it's worse because as you said, there are fewer selections. I would rather that they allow everyone to keep posting in gear swap, but to always give members first dibs at buying.

Yes, BPL will now pay less in back end fees, but does that really matter when there are no additional (or fewer) reasons to have a membership?

As a former member who has been contemplating buying membership for another year, I find the recent change disappointing. BPL is free to do what they want, but it doesn't make sense to me and as a person contemplating purchasing membership again, it's not very encouraging.

"Costs aren't large just because people can write a small essay listing the various costs (over and over and over again). I've already responded about how dubious it is that these fees are supposed to "cover forums costs" and there's plenty of statements from people, not just me, that these costs are low and ad supportable."

Maybe, maybe not, but the one thing no one has mentioned is personnel costs. The staff spend a lot of time making this site work, and they deserve compensation. And then there's the fact that BPL is a for profit business, and RJ has a perfect right to make a decent return on his investment. Any of you have some hard numbers on those costs that you take exception to?

Hi David,
Welcome to BPL. This may not have been the perfect thread in which to introduce yourself, but trust me, you are very welcome here. BPL is a very warm community, and the forum members are extremely giving of their time and knowledge. Hope you stick around and find what you are looking for. The current thread simply reflects the early stages of discourse between participants and administration regarding new changes in the forum. Please don't take it personally.
Ike

Maybe, maybe not, but the one thing no one has mentioned is personnel costs. The staff spend a lot of time making this site work, and they deserve compensation.

What personnel costs? You mean the ones to maintain the website, post articles, operate/close the store eg, things that have little to do with the forums? There is very little evidence of active work on these forums. For example people have complained RJ wasn't on for months. Generally maintaining forums (modding) is relatively easy work and is done by volunteer members.

Any of you have some hard numbers on those costs that you take exception to?

Do you have hard numbers on the costs? What does this question even mean. Do you expect me to hack RJ's computer and pull out his spreadsheet on BPL?

I can make some inferences based on the fact I use ALOT of forums, at least one of which has neither advertising nor membership costs and is similar in size to BPL. Either costs are low or I guess millionaires fund them out of pocket. I can also make inferences from hosting costs and bandwidth costs, which are easily available online. Lots of evidence is plastered on this thread, some from people who have operated forums, but you guys keep pushing the same line of high costs without providing any evidence of your own. At this point I literally will have to steal RJ's spreadsheet to stop you guys from chanting "covering costs" in this thread.

And then there's the fact that BPL is a for profit business, and RJ has a perfect right to make a decent return on his investment.

Can't argue here, other than point out the fact RJ has promised not to charge for access to the forums, the fact that monetization could hurt the BPL community, point out the complaints from tons of people plastered on this thread, point that even non-paying members are a major contributor and the board wouldn't likely exist without us, that there are alternative models to generate sustainable revenue that other people have suggested, etc.

The owner can charge $25 or $25,000 for access if he wants to, but doesn't either choice is going to be good for the company or the community, most of whom joined assuming a free access model would be permanent state. I'm sorry a forum of niche backpacker's can't support a small company/generate a private fortune, but it's probably true. I guess I'm a Marxist.

$1 Dollar a day. Feeds a family in Africa or hosts your 8000 member web forum full of trip reports, photography section, and even a GEAR SWAP. Read what the admin says in the thread below:

http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=608551

Maybe BPL should look into pair.com. Their current hosting must be super super expensive…Check the statistics at the bottom of the main page:

http://www.nwhikers.net

I haven't read this whole thread yet (been gone all weekend). But some thoughts…

"I'm not profiting from BPL.com. I'm profiting from exchanging my gear with other members."

Hmm, BPL provided the vehicle to do this. Someone paid for that vehicle so you could profit from it.

"Restricting access to an internet forum seems pretty 1990's and a seriously poor management decision. These restrictions have nothing to do with actual cost incurred and to me and maybe others, speak to serious and pressing financial needs on the part of BPL.com."

Agree somewhat. Not sure that membership as the primary financial stream will work. Free forums create traffic, but the site needs to generate income from free traffic somehow. But if you only want BPL to provide you a forum to "profit from… other members," you may want to check your motives. And how does the cost incurred not have anything to do with you or others who do not financially support BPL? Are you looking for a free lunch?

"I invest alot of time in BPL.com partly to builds up a history that lets me trade with others, but now because of its changes, even if membership was free, I have less confidence in this platform and its management and I think it might be better to focus on another forum."

If you want to use Gear Swap, then it is important to develop credibility. But if your only interest at BPL is a free vehicle to buy and sell gear, then I agree you should seek another forum.

"I say to hell with nonmembers. Get a sub or get out and complain somewhere else. There are many sites to sell your gear so go. I never knew nonmembers could sell items previously which seems ridiculous. I think we should remove their ability to reply to posts as well. Also, they should be required to sew an identifier on their packs so I can punch them on the trail."

Whoa!

I DISAGREE BIG TIME!!

Okay, non-members who only come here for gear swap is not benefiting the ownership of BPL, unless they have crunched the numbers and proven otherwise. There are a lot of non-paying members who truly contribute a lot. I know I called them MEMBERS, because to me they are, and they are valuable to the BPL community. But the Gear Swap is another thing. Heck eBay charges sellers to sell… think about it.

Other than Gear Swap, LETS NOT CRITICIZE THE FOLKS YOU ARE NOT PAYING MEMBERS. Many of them make serious contributions to BPL, and I would really hate to see any of them leave because of an "elitist" attitude here.

"Even if membership was free for me I object to restrictions on gear swap because I believe non-members aren't going to invest time shopping in a venue they can't sell on. Also as someone with an awareness of marginal hosting costs, it's also the principle of paying a markup of 100000% (5 zeroes, ie 1000x) for something every other forum I use offers for free."

Marmot,

Sounds like you got it figured out. And you state you have the knowledge of how a Website works, which I don't. Sounds to me like you need to start your own Website and reap the benefits.

Nick, I think your post is such a distorted reading of my arguments to be grossly offensive and misleading. I suggest you reread your posts, especially when they turn out to be multiple posts of personal attacks and I also suggest you reread my posts and the thread again. Thanks.

"I dont particularly like the decision to restrict the gear forum purchases. This is the first site that i have seen do this. Now as a non paying memeber I really dont have much say and shouldnt.

I would however say that a non paying member does bring value to the site in a few ways.
1) They provide content and opinion and ask questions. The value of the forum is off of posts. Newbies who arent members yet drive a lot of the discussion with their questions and experienced non members answer quetions as well. Without discussion there is no forum.

2) Every non-member is a potential new member.

3) Traffic driven to a website can be monitized through adds.

Now point 3 is where I think BPL is missing the boat. Their desire for no ads is admirable however they are missing the most common form of internet income. BPL seems to see the forum as an expense however most forums that are just forums that do not generate their own content see the forum as a source of income or at least breaking even.

So i think that BPL would be better off generating as much traffic as it can and monitize it with adds common to all internet forums. Then a membership Benefit would be the removal of adds. Adding restrictions to one of your largest traffic generators in my opinion is just putting a tax on yourself and restricting growth.

I think the biggest risk is when a user like me finds a different site to post used gear on that i might like the other forum and decrease my traffic here. But since BPL doesnt monitize traffic that isnt a loss for them and in fact will save them money."

GregF,

Excellent Post!! I agree with you 100%. And thank you for saying that as a "non-paying" member you have little to say and shouldn't. I don't like the drift of the thread as "non" vs "paying" members. Not healthy. The biggest question is whether or not BPL is pursuing a viable business model. I have my doubts, but that is up to the ownership of BPL. To me, lightweight backpacking is going to have a limited audience, and if the majority of members buy lifetime memberships, soon BPL will burn that cash. They need a model that generates incremental sales every month, and I do not think the membership route is the way to go. However, I hope it works out, because I like this site.

Haven't read every post. But from reading it seems the jist is that the important part is that BPL needs to draft and put into use a viable working business plan. Nick makes some very good points. And both those complaining and the management at BPL need to take notice. -Oddly enough, I'm due to anti-up for another year. Now I'm wondering if I put my $$ into the slot if I'll get another year out of it? Well, I really hope so, cause like Nick, I really like this site. And I've said it before, I've never paid to be a member of any other web site. But BPL has certainly been worth the cost, at least until lately. Long live BPL.

In reading this thread I have come to ask myself why I am a member of such a family as the BPL surname. You can get into breaking apart individual's posts to identify where more "insight" should be given line by line. You can complain about various practices currently going on in the BPL family. You can identify areas that can be improved upon in our community. But, you are not one of our community members. You are not a trustful family member. For many of nonmembers I wish they would join but that is not the case.

I feel the thing this thread is lacking is the mere fact we are a prideful community of individuals thrown together as a family similar to many of my own hiking groups. People that maybe you wouldn't hang out with on Friday night, but you would hike the end of the world with. There is a pride in my membership and contributing to the community. Do I look down on nonmembers? Yes. In my own opinion Roger best put it when he responded, "We are Elite".

I thought about the wheeling and dealing of products on gear swap from nonmembers (because I did not know this was possible in the past) and am quite annoyed it was allowed. Further, I question if nonmembers should be able to buy the gear I list. I have been screwed many times on sites of craigslists/ebay and the like from random people I do not trust or know. However, I have listed, sold and bought on here because I felt I could trust my community. A member would not list an item as like new if it was not the case because they have respect for us all.

I read through the forums that have been mentioned, because I had never heard of them. I feel what we have here is different then whiteblaze etc.. for we are a family of extremists. Maybe I idealize us too much, but I don't think so.

Put a penny in a jar. Save up and join a community not a forum.

It was my mistake in not looking at the M or Mlife next to a name to identify who was member and who wasn't. When I joined I did so because I thought the only way to access the forums/articles/everything was to be a member. "LETS NOT CRITICIZE THE FOLKS YOU ARE NOT PAYING MEMBERS"-sorry don't agree.

When I joined I did so because I thought the only way to access the forums/articles/everything was to be a member…Do I look down on nonmembers? Yes. In my own opinion Roger best put it when he responded, "We are Elite".

Chase, you didn't get the membership by running up a mountain or have a record time on the AT, you earned the vaunted M by having $25 dollars. You faced the same decision non-members do and decided it was your choice to join. Some people just don't see the same benefits as you, and surely this doesn't make them "below" you.

Your attitude especially doesn't make sense because it sounds like you are literally saying you only joined because you made the mistake that the forum was not free.

Many people are happy to use these forums by themselves and in many threads non-members contribute important information. Also non-members are potential future members, like you were once. Your attitude seems a little unfair and can turn off potential members to the community. I hope that isn't your goal, to promote a small elite with a certain attitude to the site.

"Chase, you didn't get the membership by running up a mountain or have a record time on the AT, you earned the vaunted M by having $25 dollars"

I got my membership with $25. I earned my membership by climbing mountains with the philosophy and ideology this community teaches.

"I hope that isn't your goal, to promote a small elite with a certain attitude to the site."

Actually, that is exactly what I would promote. A small elite with a certain attitude.

lol

I spent as much time laughing as reading here. It's been fun but I think I'm done with this thread

Good:-) I, too, am tired of this thread.

Of course, it's predictable that folks will react to any change, especially change that revises free benefits (the internet, after all, is "free like radio"), and that such an uproar will be greater in off-season times.

Four new pages since I left for trailhead on Friday. Impressive, haha!

I note that some folks have tossed in the towel on this exercise in venting, and considering the broken record effect, that may be great. I did scroll this thing real quick and noted a few points of light that might result in some benefit to anyone that cares…

–$1/day hosting? Doesn't exist, but did in 2007. Currently, Pair.com offers $180/month for a site the size and traffic of BPL. This is a good deal, btw, especially if they stay up, er "online without interruption". The site referenced as an example, btw, is much smaller in traffic and bandwidth than this one, at least according to Alexa.

–Monetize with ads? Yes, this is how a site this large can pay the bills and yes, it would make the site look a lot different. It would not, however, be an instant waterfall of cash pouring into the millionaires' pockets — ads on sites like this generally fall into two categories: "endemic" and "non-endemic". Endemic ads come from vendors that pay the site directly and non-endemic ads are placed in banner locations using engines that include Google's AdSense, and also the Gear Buyer ads you see between posts, here.

Non-endemic ads generate pennies by one of two methods: pay per click, or pay per view. Ya pick one system and that's the meter applied. Clicks pay more, but occur less. Neither pay much, until you've been running them for a while and have immense traffic across the pages they're on. If the site owner culls the ads to remove tampons, loan modification, erectile products, bla bla bla…you make even less.

Endemic ads pay what the market will bear, generally for graphic ad banners that must be programmed into the site interface and that function as a link to the advertisers' sites. We've all seen such ads, of course. Three issues with those: 1) one must have an interface that can handle it; 2) one can only charge what endemic advertisers will pay; 3) one must develop a criteria to encourage folks to want to pay a fee.

I'm sure this is all very simple and easy to resolve in some folks' internet jihadi minds. Such conversations are legion on free sites that face obsolescent software and increasing costs.

BPL has obsolescent software. Hosting and income do not resolve software, programming, migration and maintenance. Managers of teeny or subsidized sites have no way to comprehend that. Take it like "the world is round": at some point you're gonna have to believe the science, even though you're sure it's flat. BPL needs upgrade. No question.

Thanks for illustrating why I should save my money, Chase. I'm sure BPL management appreciates it.

I would rather scroll thru some adds than pay for a membership. Why don't we all just agree to click on an add every week?

I came here looking for a reply by the BPL staff (i.e. Ryan). All I got was bickering.

Pimps and prostitutes, now we're calling people "internet jihadi"?

You guys need to re-evaluate.

What is it now, something like 20 or 25 dollars a year? Quite a bargain for what you get and I don't buy the "can't afford it", either. Pay up and gear swap away…

"I don't buy the "can't afford it", either."

bold statement when the economy is in the in $hitter… i worked 8 hours… last WEEK. to be able to do anything I want to do I cut out anything extra that is unnecessary. a few articles and being able to post in one folder.. not a big incentive.

in reality though the members only selling will only hurt them because it's still open season to buy. and if they take away the ability for nonmembers to buy then folks will leave. guaranteed. there are other places to go. this place is NOT that special in that regard. if anything it is far behind do to it's 1987 Geo Metro infrastructure.