2012 R2R2R Group – Training Log’s

Hope it doesn't come across like I'm calling those elites bums…..they're obviously far greater athletes than i'll ever aspire to and inspiring. I respect them tremendously……I just think getting home after a long run and changing diapers and being a husband (Mackey) is more respectable than getting home and recovering all day while updating your ultra blog before the second run of the day.

Now

I've been watching the R2R2R threads with great interest for a few weeks. Living in downtown Philly though does not lend itself well to hill training (nevermind at altitude). It's a 25-minute drive to find 300-feet of vertical and forget about finding 1,000+ feet sustained on anything but the weekends. So it's good to hear that some of you also face similar challenges elsewhere. I had this notion that most of you, like Craig W., had a mountain range in your back yard.

I'll continue to watch and continue to train and if nothing else, will be more prepared for the shorter races I had planned here in the northeast this spring. As much as I'd love to be a part of the R2R2R, I'd be foolish to think I'm ready for something of this magnitude right now. We'll see how the next few months go though. You guys have been an inspiration though and I've appreciated the training insight you've provided.

____________________________________________________________________

I'm out.

"he'll still do really well despite this chronic shin injury"

You mean I'm not the only runner dealing with a bad shin injury? So much for that excuse!

As a native to southeastern Pennsylvania, I can relate to the frustration to the lack of really big climbs and would probably have said that there's no alternative to being able to train in the big mountains until I paid attention to Michael Wardian's UROC run (I realize this was no Hardrock). I do however see ways to get in some good training in the region. I know there are several runners and teams (Mountain Peak Fitness) that head west and do well at some mountain races (having run along side of them at times). I also would suggest looking at the training of guys like Neal Gorman, Michael Wardian (if you can stomach treadmilling up hill), Rachel and Sandi Nypaver, Sabrina Moran and the VA Happy Trails Running Club. Don't let the lack of picturesque mountains dissuade you from giving something like a R2R2R a shot. Also if you haven't I'd look into the NJ trail series races they're usually a good mix of terrain and a lot of experienced runners show up.

Some of the year end numbers that I have been reading on various running blogs are out of this world… The sport of ultra running is starting to grow and elites have to put in a lot of hours, run tons of volume and rack up the vertical. I still think it is pretty cool that we can mingle at the start of a race with the elites, but that would probably be the last time I'd see them all day at a race…

don't want to jinx myself, but looks like I might be back in the hunt- still have neck/shoulder/arm pain, but not near as severe

tested it out this evening w/ a 5 mile trail run and so far so good :)

I got to thinking quite a bit how I might have hurt myself, could have been a myriad of things, but it did happen after my 10 mile run (my longest) and I was wearing a hydration pack, I sort of remember having a little discomfort in the neck and shoulders (much like a long hike w/ a heavier pack)

has anyone ever had any similar trouble w/ a hydration pack? like I said, it could have been something else, but I might just stick w/ a waist pack for the time being

I've had back problems from a pack. Back in my college days when the cool thing was to wear it over one shoulder AND as an engineering student, I had a lot of big books. I stopped wearing it that way and the problem went away.

Maybe try some runs with no pack? Can you stash your water on your route, or just chug beforehand? Just to see if having no pack helps.

That is great news Mike! What kind of pack are you running with – is it fitted for running? On the rare occasion that I run with a pack I wear the Ultimate Direction Wasp and I've never encountered any issues… I am pretty much a handheld convert and have been looking into a "Krissy" vest (as in Krissy Moehl) of late – basically a small pack to carry foods, a wind shell etc. while fluids are held in hand. It may be an option to take some weight off your back.
The two options for these types of vests are the Nathan #028 and the UltrAspire Surge.

A friend that's somewhat new to running just came off a medium-ish (11.5 mile) run with me and commented on neck/shoulder tension, saying soreness there was often worse than in the legs after long runs. I remember having issues with this when I started, really sore neck/shoulders after my first road marathon, less so now though. I think people carry a lot of tension there without knowing it…running with shoulders shrugged and neck tight. Do this for an hour or more and you'll likely feel it, possibly even pinch a nerve. Make a conscious effort to keep the upper body nice and relaxed, arms and hands loose, shoulders dropped. I remember a coach once saying to keep the face nice and relaxed, smile even, because the body will follow.

the pack I've been using is the Osprey Talon 5.5, it's a fairly svelte little pack- I've been using a Osprey bladder (2 liter) in it as they add a little rigidity- the pack didn't seem to move much when running

I'm using a small camelbak lumbar pack now- it has a small bladder in it and holds a wee bit of gear- I think it would be too small for the Grand Canyon (the Talon 5.5 would be perfect- size wise), but will work for training runs until my miles get up there

I might try hand helds, although weigh in your hands could possibly strain your neck some??????????

Osprey makes a bigger lumbar pack the Talon 4 that might get the job done

like I said it may not have anything to do w/ the pack, but it's certainly a possibility

good advice Craig- I do think I run on the tight side in my upper body, I'll make a conscience effort to try and keep things looser (and smile more! :) )

"like I said it may not have anything to do w/ the pack, but it's certainly a possibility."

Absolutely Mike. It makes sense to explore a few options and find a personal hydration preference. I started with lumbar packs a few years ago and would develop small quarter sized chafe marks on my lower back, they just didn't work with my girlish figure. ;-p

Hydration vests work very well if they fit properly, and my running vest fits nicely, but I prefer to not use it unless I absolutely have to carry additional gear and water. For the R2R2R in April I will be using my running vest..

95% of the time I run with a single 20oz. bottle, maybe two bottles, or no bottle at all. Right now with the cool winter weather I've been needing less water and running sans bottle; it is a world of difference running with nothing in your hands.

…

"I remember a coach once saying to keep the face nice and relaxed, smile even, because the body will follow."

I was also given that same advise when I was doing by 7th jump. (skydiving) I was WAY too tense and the very laid back instructor told me to just look at her during the jump and smile. Her claim was that you can't be tense with a smile on your face.

Mike,
Great news on being back in the hunt.

Ron,
Hope you are able to join us. It would be great to meet you.

…

I see Ben is starting back- hope the ankle doesn't give you any more problems

my impingement is definitely better, still some pain in the shoulder, lower neck, upper back, but nothing like it was and thus far running doesn't seem to impact it

looking at airfares, finding some pretty decent deals- ~ $250 round trip Billings <-> Phoenix

Yeah, good luck Ben, hope you can ramp it up in time and make it out.

Worst case, if you're not feeling up to the full R2R2R, come anyway and make it a marathon R2River2R.

Today was a cross-training day. Shoveling the driveway, specifically. 400 feet x 20 feet x 6" of snow. I was at it for a total of 2-1/2 hours. I do a lot of walking as I push the snow to the edges and of course more upper-body work than I would hiking.

Otherwise, I've been doing okay on my stair work and have been putting on some miles stomping ski trails out in snowshoes.

I should do some laps inside Walmart to get some faster-paced walking miles, though.

Due to time constraints and crappy weather I spent most of the week indoors. Saturday I had a memorable treadmill workout, I simulated the uphill of the North Face. After consulting my GPS software the "route" looked like this:
1) 90 minutes @ 5% gain (6mph)
2) 70 minutes @ 14% gain (3.5mph)
3) Total distance – 13.2 miles, gain – 5400'

How did it go?
1) This was one of the toughest workouts I've ever done. It wasn't the time, elevation or distance but the heat of the gym that caused me to sweat about a gallon. This completely soaked out all my clothes causing chaffing problems.
2) It was nice to get some benchmark on speed on some of the inclines. The 6mph was fairly easy on the treadmill but I know the combination of elevation and trail surface will make this counterfeit in the real world. Has anyone seen a correction factor for either speed or incline to compensate for elevation? I have seen the debate on wind resistance but couldn't find anything on altitude.
3) Since I had access to my heart rate I checked it a few times during the run. Not surprising it was very consistent during each phase. I was just over 160 for the 5% section and just under 160 for the 14%. I suspect that may be a bit high for an all day run but I zero data on what I normally train at.

Hopefully I will be able to move back outside this week. Trail is SO much enjoyable then a hot sweaty gym. Hope everyone is healing up and getting ready!

Greg
you're either an exceptional athlete or your treadmill is a bit off.
those sustained speeds at those inclines are very fast.
. . . but it does sound like a Great hill workout.

Thanks Mike and Craig!

Yeah I am a little worried about the time I have left. If I have to cut it short, I will. I have done a a bright angel -> phantom -> bright angel in a day and survived so I'm keeping an open mind about it while trying to be realistic.

anyhow thanks for the encouragement. hope to see you guys there.

@ Art,

I know Eric through correspondence from a year or two back, we keep in touch through email and such, much like I have with Craig for a while now. I followed Eric on his GET thru last year as well, he can cover some distance.

Btw, had some friends over last night and watched "Unbreakable" the WS100 documentary that just came out, they managed to capture some of the tension in that race as well as give equal backstory to the top guys that year. The editing is pretty bad at times and there's some serious filler conversation filmed that probably seemed more interestin at thethe time ofoff shooting . It is still inspiring to watch them run so hard for 100 miles and truly race at that distance.

You 100 runners blow my mind.

Focused on all vertical this past week, mileage hasn't been a concern, just time and ascent. Finally bagged a summit I've been eyeing for over a year yesterday afternoon, got in a good 2500' of vert before being blown down by a low front
. I'll be running this route once a week.

That's an impressive treadmill workout Greg. When I've been forced to use the gym during the week, I've been alternating similar speeds at 3-4% and 14% grades and find myself wiped after 60-70 minutes. Thanks for laying out the simulation of the north face of the canyon. Will be something to keep in mind if winter ever really hits and I'm forced indoors for an extended period.

Got some encouragement from a guy at my local trail on Saturday. He was heading to the HURT 100 in Oahu next week and finished WS100 last year and does all his training right here outside of Philly. Proof that what Dan said was true. Great to see in the flesh though.

Hope you guys don't mind that I jumped into the party late. I still can't commit but this has kept me motivated and on the trails at a time when I'd usually be in winter hibernation mode.

Brad

>"you're either an exceptional athlete or your treadmill is a bit off.
those sustained speeds at those inclines are very fast."

Those could both be true :-)

I've never found a treadmill that simulated the slope it claimed. The treadmill moved at the reported speed, yes. And the "slope" was probably at the reported angle. But on the trail, I'm actually moving my body uphil. At the gym, most of body stays at the same elevation, so mostly I'm lifting my legs somewhat more when the treadmill is set for steeper hills.

And I HATE how hot most exercise rooms are (in hotels, I don't belong to a gym). Years ago, I gave up on the exercise room and I go to the stairwell – all hotels have them. Often they're cooler and I have it to myself. I put on some tunes or podcasts and pace myself at about 2,500 feet/hour (total up+down). Actual vertical feet in which I lifted (and lowered) my 180 pounds against gravity.

And especially for GCNP, going downstairs is really good prep. Since I've including stair work in my prep (sometimes my only prep), I haven't hurt from a SK-River-SK or BA-River-BA.

I'm talking hiking only. What works for you runners to prep for the downhill? I've got one-story stairs at home and 4 flights at the beach at 0F. But actual hills are an hour away and covered with snow.

"you're either an exceptional athlete or your treadmill is a bit off.
those sustained speeds at those inclines are very fast."

Art,
Please let it it be the first!!!! :) The incline could be off a degree or two either direction, I'm sure it has never been leveled at the gym. I do a lot of incline high speed walking on treadmills and noticed nothing out the ordinary with respect to either speed or incline.

"I've never found a treadmill that simulated the slope it claimed. The treadmill moved at the reported speed, yes. And the "slope" was probably at the reported angle. But on the trail, I'm actually moving my body uphil. At the gym, most of body stays at the same elevation, so mostly I'm lifting my legs somewhat more when the treadmill is set for steeper hills.

David,
In the range that I was going (5-14%) the angle and the % grade would be almost identical. I also spent most of the three hours while on the machine trying to determine if the motion of the treadmill was the same as walking up a perfectly smooth hill. Initially, I thought as you, the body isn't moving therefore the treadmill was easier. But then I took the example to the extreme, a perfectly 90 degree incline. It then becomes obvious that the mechanics are the same. But I do know that treadmills are easier in two respects; smoother surface and altitude. Can’t do anything about the surface which is why I asked about altitude adjustment.

I will be able to get a pretty good idea of the relative difficulty of treadmill vs. trail on my next AT run. I will find a couple of sections that have an equilivent gain to the two training sections. I will have a full report!

>"In the range that I was going (5-14%) the angle and the % grade would be almost identical. I also spent most of the three hours while on the machine trying to determine if the motion of the treadmill was the same as walking up a perfectly smooth hill. Initially, I thought as you, the body isn't moving therefore the treadmill was easier. But then I took the example to the extreme, a perfectly 90 degree incline. It then becomes obvious that the mechanics are the same. But I do know that treadmills are easier in two respects; smoother surface and altitude. Can’t do anything about the surface which is why I asked about altitude adjustment."

Greg, I agree slope and angle are essentially the same at low angles.

And that the range of motion your legs go through is the same.

But I can walk 4.25 mph up a "14%" slope on a treadmill all day long and it does not feel like 4.25 mph up 740 vertical feet per mile on good trail.

Being on the treadmill is absolutley better than not being on the treadmill. I don't think it's as good or as much of a workout as being on an actual hilly trail, but we all work with what we have. I'm quite limited, at sea level, on the flats, in a small town, at -18F this morning, simulating a R2R2R hike, and actual stairs are part of what I can do to get in shape.

But my biggest message to newbies is: get some downhill work in. It's the lack of downhill conditioning that has left me hurting in the distant past. Then I turned 45 and got smart.