Best lightweight winter tent?

Thanks for the reply Victor! I have seen your photos on OWare's site. It's great to have a chance to ask the guy in the photos!

A couple of questions, if you wouldn't mind:

1) I noticed other tents in the background. Do you sleep in the 'mid?

2) Could you talk about condensation?

3) How is it during a storm? Can you pitch it tight and make it fairly quiet or does it flap like a sail all night?

Thanks!

Brian

I love Hilleberg tents. I’ve owned a Nallo 2 and currently have a Kaitum. The Kaitum is an incredible tent.

Here’s our review on the Kaitum: Hilleberg Kaitum Review.

Piles of trips later, I still love this tent. I’ve had this in ridiculous storms with very high winds, huge snow dumps, and sideways sleet and hail, and this tent is brilliant. Taut as a drum (in fact, it sounds like a drum in crazy side winds) and HUGE space for the weight. The weight of the Nallo was sweet but the dual vestibules make this tent extremely livable.

Now, what’s the deal with that Akto picture? It shows the downside of these “Scandanavian” or hoop design tents. If you use large, non-crossing poles, you get a marvelous space to weight ratio. Add great guylines (like Hilleberg does) and you get great wind stability too. There are comproises though.

Hoop tents naturally have flat tops that can collect snow. You have to be more dillegent in clearing snow during serious snow dumps (like we have here in Washington). Also, these tents tend to have flatter sides that can deflect more during side winds. Not all Hilleberg tents are hoop designs, but the Nallo, Kaitum, and Akto all are and will suffer these compromises. The Akto in that picture was left outside unattended over a period of days during a huge storm. It showed the downside of hoop designs, sure, but an Akto properly cleared would have no issues.

Now, if you want the ultimate in stability and snowloading, you have to cross poles. 3 or 4 crossed poles is the best, such as the Mountain Hardware EV3. The structure of this design just can’t be beat. However, the compromise here is increased weight and sloped walls that decrease usable space.

All tents carry their own set of compromises. For me, the Hilleberg Kaitum is a marvelous presentation of excellent design.

The Terra Nova Laser tents are great too- similar to Hilleberg quality. I’ve been reviewing a Laser Competition lately- very similar design to an Akto but lighter and slightly shorter. Great tent!

> Now, if you want the ultimate in stability and snowloading, you have to cross poles. 3 or 4 crossed poles is the best,

Well, not really. That's just one way of doing it. The maths for designing the bits of fabric for a crossed poles tent is horrible too. There are alternatives.

I use a pole set with a distinct elbow at the peak. This removes the flat top from the tunnel, so the snow has much more chance of sliding off. Making the elbows is a tiny hassle. I've been using this design for years.

To that I add what are called internal guys. These go across the inside of the tent, often between the anchor points for the upper external guys. I only implement these in seriously bad weather, after we have cooked dinner and are about to go to sleep. They prevent the top of the tent from depressing – the sides have to bulge to allow the top to sink. These do restrict free movement inside the tent, but they make the poles incredibly rigid. (Memories of camping on a very exposed col opposite Mont Blanc in France in a storm … But the views were wonderful.)

Finally, instead of having two poles with a long length of flat roof in between, you can have four poles with short stretches in between in a standard tunnel design. By using carbon fibre tubing the pole weight is not high.

Cheers

I have a question about internal guys (not couch potatoes, I mean those cords inside a tent.) Would such a system help firm up a BD or Bibler tent in a severe storm?

Hi Robert

> I have a question about internal guys (not couch potatoes, I mean those cords inside a tent.) Would such a system help firm up a BD or Bibler tent in a severe storm?
First answer: probably, if there are curved poles.
But for a better answer you need to include a URL to a pic of the tent.

Hi Brian,

One of the guys in the picture is in his mid-70's and he still skis and goes on extensive backpacking trips. He is quite the mountaineer. He also has a three digit REI number. I just wish I could be a fit as him at that age.

1) I noticed other tents in the background. Do you sleep in the 'mid?
We teach a snow camping class for Boy Scout leaders. Their tents in the background. On these occasions, I sleep in a four-season tent. For this class we use the Oware pyramid as a staff and cook tent. The pictures were during and after a nice storm that dumped 2 feet of heavy snow. The wind was blowing the snow horizontal for most of the weekend.

I have slept in the pyramid a number of times. When it is just one or two of us, I use the pyramid for cooking and sleeping. We dig out an area so we have seating area and a table. The pyramid is big enough to sleep two of us and still leave room for a kitchen.

2) Could you talk about condensation?
When we cook and melt water for the group, we get a good amount of condensation, as one would expect. It tends to roll down the fabric and not drop on anyone. We have had 12 people sitting around our "table" in the tent one time. So the condensation never quite freezes until we turn off the heat sources and kick the people out. We leave the door partially open to vent it.
When I use it by myself. The condensation is not too bad, no worse than other four season tents that I have used. Even if it had a vent, I don't think it would help much. As soon as the water vapor hits the cold fabric it freezes

3) How is it during a storm? Can you pitch it tight and make it fairly quiet or does it flap like a sail all night?
It has been great for us in storms. It sheds wind and if it is pitched tight, there is almost no flapping and is pretty quiet. The only issue in a storm is the snow load. If the snow is heavy the sides will sag a little. We just keep the sides clear. Try to pitch the pyramid so the door does not face the wind, then it tents to act like a sail if the door is open. Once the door is zippered shut it behaves just fine.

The 10×10 pyramid has a lot more room than the Hex3. With the center pole the Hex3 sleeps 2 the Oware pyramid can easily sleep 4.

I think it is a great product! I would buy another one in a heart beat. I also have one of David Olsen's Cat Tarps for summer use.

Hope this helps,

Vic

Roger, before Black Diamond bought his company, Todd Bibler more or less invented the tent design where you push one long pole into the the the tent door, stick it into a reinforced back corner, bend the pole up, pushiing the tent body into a dome shape, and sticking the front end of the pole into the tent corner "kitty-corner" from the back end of the pole. (Here is a www reference to a picture: http://www.mgear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Bibler/idesc/Ahwahnee+Tent+-+2/Store/MG/item/101138/N/1008.) Then a second pole is pushed into the empty back corner, arched up, and the front end is pushed into the emptly front corner. There are little Velcro tabs along the tent's seams which wrap aroung the poles to help them stay in place. With internal guys, would you start by tying a cord to the place where the two poles cross at the very top of the tent, or would pulling down on the poles just make the force of snow loading more burdensome on the poles? Would you put a cord horizontally around the middle, like cinching up on a belt around your waist, thus tending to push the top of the pole upwards?

Very valuable comments; thank you Victor.

Hi Robert

> Todd Bibler more or less invented the tent design where you push one long pole into the the the tent door, stick it into a reinforced back corner,
Hardly! The idea was around long before that. I made a dome tent with crossed poles around 1965, and used it for many years in wild mountain weather. But I am sure the Poms had dome tents before that. Maybe Todd B introduced the idea to America.

Internal guys: these come in two sorts.

One sort goes from the cross-over at the roof down to the foot of the pole, and bows the pole outwards. This is good for countering medium sideways wind on domes as it tensions the fabric into a better curve. I have used that a lot on domes, and it works quite well. Incidentally, I usually used a rigid cross connector at the roof and had four poles, rather than two longer poles which could move relative to each other at the roof. The cross connector made the tent more stable.

The other sort is more useful for tunnels, and is horizontal. It goes from one guy rope attachment point across the inside of the tent to the other attachment. Yes, this does block up the inside of the tent a bit, so having a little hook there is a good idea. However, it is well above your sleeping bag. Now you have (effectively) a continuous guy rope from the ground up to the pole on one side, across to the pole on the other side, and back down to the ground. This makes the pole unbelievably rigid. The pole could buckle sideways, but if the tunnel fabric is taut that can't happen either.

I can't see much point in putting a cord around the middle as you suggested: the fabric should provide that sort of constraint.

Cheers

Thanks for your help! Something like that is a lot better than sitting up trying to hold a tent together with your hands and feet. (P.S., you blokes from below the Equator may not have heard, but Todd Bibler was a buffalo hunter (that's an AMERICAN buffalo hunter) who invented the dome tent in 1843. He also climbed Mt. Everest long before that bee keeper fellow was born.)

Yup…agreed; 2 feet of wet, heavy snow & the Akto don't cut it; the only Hilleberg's I'd go with are the Nallo & the Keron.
I'd bet on a well made tunnel or most Biblers.

I now have the Soulo, but haven't had the chance to use it in snow conditions yet. From all indications, it's going to be a near perfect one man tent for any winter condition.

Hey John,
I'd be intersted in your review of it. I was looking very hard at it, but it was too expensive to buy without knowing more info. RJ actually said that it felt too flimsy when he saw it. What are your thoughts?
Oh, and have you weighed it yet? Of course you have :)

Hey Steve…

The Soulo is the same as any Hilleberg 1200 model with 9mm poles. If you've seen any of them, then you know how strong and overbuilt they are. I saw absolutely no feature that even resembled flimsy. I weighed mine at: 3 lb 4.75 oz with the stuff sack. Poles are an aditional 1 lb 4.75 oz in their sack. Add in the weight of whatever stakes you're using to this 4 lb 9.5 oz figure.

I'll carry the tent and the poles separately with the poles under the compression straps and the tent inside my pack, unless wet (then it would be in the bear canister carrier of my McHale). By carrying the tent separately, I have it down to a 8" diameter sack 10.5" long, which is smaller than a Bearakade Weekender.

A few more photos here: http://tinyurl.com/2f7254

John – This is off topic, but it looks like you got one of the small spectra packs. If you don't mind my asking, what did it end up weighing?
Ron

Ron…

That's a McHale LBP (Little Big Pack) in a 36" circumference. Everything, except most of the webbing, is full Dyneema. In order to explain the total weight since I added a lot of options, here's a run-down. It's a 24.5" Q-Bayonet frame, which means that's the length of the pack (unless the bayonet is folded to 23" to shorten the pack). It has an 11" roll top extention giving it capability of another 5" (and 500 cu/in) above the top of the frame. It has a double summit with both a bladder holder and a bear canister flap built in underneath. It's got two bottle pockets, compression straps, and the bottom is double layered Dymeema. Also included in the weight is a Dyneema Crest hip belt pouch.

The double summit flap (along with it's attachments) and the bottle pockets are detachable.

Total weight is 3 lb 9.5 oz for an extremely comfortable, and literally bulletproof, framed pack. A pound could easily be knocked off by deleting a few options.

Hi John – I edited this because I just re-read your above post and it pretty much answered my questions. I must have been skimming through the post too quickly. It looks like an exceptional pack
Thanks…Ron

Hey John,

You have excellent taste in gear, mind if I pick your brain some?

I have also been contemplating the Soulo tent. I am 6'6", 260, and have been confined to my eVent Unishelter for 2 years while searching out the perfect solo tent. Nobody wants to share a tent with me on climbs… I am big, loud, and need my own lair. On paper the Soulo seems to meet my space, weight, durability, and strength requirements. I would be grateful hear what your experience is with the tent. How well does it ventilate? How fast can you set it up? What kind of snow load can it hold? Could a little lady fit in there with me?

Out of curiosity…. is your Dyneema LBP the custom one that McHale displays on his website? I was browsing his site a month ago and at first glance of that pack my mind clicked into "MUST HAVE THAT GEAR" mode. When I contacted McHale for a quote, he said it would be in the 750-800 range give or take… guess I know where my tax return is going.

There can't be that many Custom McHale Dyneema LBPs in the universe and I think it is funny that the one I was quoted for was an exact copy of yours.

All your gear belongs to US!

Jim

Hi Jim…

At 6'6" (78") you will fit into a Soulo (87"), but won't have much room left over. The photos show a 6'4" bag, so a 6'6" bag will fit. There's enough width for you, too, at about 30" wide at the ends and almost a foot more in the center. All Hillebergs are strong and the Soulo's materials and design are excellent. Ventilation wise, this tent has a major vent in the top which has a good deal of adjustment. The venting in the door is excellent and can be adapted to conditions.

I haven't done an actual time trial for setup, but would guess right now that I'm in the 4 minute range (without racing). Much of the total time will depend upon how many stakes are used. Unfortunately I haven't had enough snow to fully test it, but see no reason to doubt that it will stand up to any amount that's thrown at it. The chances of fitting anyone/anything (except maybe a small dog named Lady) in there with you are slim.

The double summit lidded LBP on the McHale site is basically identical to mine (not mine), but I don't have the utility pocket (at least yet). I also strongly considered going with a kangaroo pocket and a single layer summit flap. The quoted price is quite accurate. The pack, as I have it is around $750 but shipping for the demo and then for the final pack boosted that up to around $780. I believe that that price would be the same up to a 38". It was tempting to go slightly bigger initially, but then I would have been edgeing toward a bigger pack. BTW, I can just (barely) fit a Monbell SS #0 in a tight compression sack into the bottom of the 36" horizontally. As a side note, the Crest pocket in regular size is one of the biggest hip belt pockets I've ever seen and will hold all my items easily.

Good luck in choosing options. The mind boggles just thinking about them.

I just got my McHale LBP 36 in full Dyneema. Dan is making a removable mesh kangaroo.

Wondering if youve had a chance to further test the Soulo? Ive been looking hard at it. I have the Akto at the moment and whilst it hasnt given me any problems, strength wise, its taken everything the scottish weather can throw at it, (1 do like to double pole it and you do need to kick heavy snow falls of) However i'm 6.25" and find the space very restrictive. I went a bit mad for ultralite a few years back but am now willing to carry a few more grams for extra comfort and the soulo looks near perfect for me. I'm curious if hilleberg have given room for double poling on the soulo? although 3 extra poles is a little to much :D just curious. How did you find the cut of the fabric? ive heard a rumour or 2 hilleberg aint quite as careful as they use to be, one guy mentioned this in this thread. How do you find the temp inside the tent compared to outside? any other info greatly appriciated.

Dave…

I've still not had the Soulo out in significant snowfall yet. I'm 6'1" and the Soulo seems to have considerable space (no more length) than the Akto I had. I used a 10mm pole on the Akto rather than double poling. So far I don't think that the Soulo is going to need stronger poles. A double pole would not work since the tent is clipped onto the pole, not feed through a sleeve (if it was possible the weight of another set of poles would add 588g). The quality seems as good as ever. While it's certainly warmer than the outside temperatures, being a tarp and tarptent user I suspect that I tend to vent it much more than the average person would, so the contrast is not too great. I have no regrets, whatsoever, about this purchase.

Thanks for the further info John. Ive made my mind up and will be purchasing a Soulo shortly. I think it looks like it will suit me. I've trust Hilleberg after living though some atrocious weather in my akto… really some of the worst weather to hit Scotland in 20 years on one occssion. I want a little more room now im not quite as fixated on weight. I considered the Unna whuch has even more room inside the inner tent than the Soulo but would miss the vestibule area. I think I'm making the right choice and your comments have helped so thanks again.

Pitched correctly, with the proper end into the wind, any of the tents from the awesome Tarptent family will take several inches of snow and pretty strong winds. Learning how to pitch it correctly is the key, but isn't that the key with all tents? I've been in 2 different models in some pretty stiff conditions and they've held up beautifully. Imagine getting 3 inches of snow and 30mph winds and waking up in the morning and not having even a bit of snow on the tent. Tarptent baby, Tarptent…

The only issue with a Tarptent is when you have wind driven snow. The low and high ends of any Tarptent will have exposed netting. You can remedy this slightly with a properly built wind break but without being fully enclosed you're still going to get major spindrift inside your tent.

Also the winter conditions you described using your Tarptent in aren't very bad; three inches of snow and 30 mph winds are not bad winter conditions, especially if you're below the tree line.