Best lightweight winter tent?

OK, back to N Cal and finally got the time to put my finalists down after an intense work trip. I had read the entire thread and also read up on the Hilleberg models that would best fit our uses, and a) I've decided on a double wall tent, and b) I've narrowed it down to 3 Hilleberg tents, two dome (Jannu and Allak) and one tunnel (Nammatj), that are close in interior space and differ primarily in the fabric/pole weight and slightly differ in vestibule space. All 3 supposed to be quite strong and are close in weight. While I'm 6 ft tall, all 3 tents offer enough room for me to stretch out and to sit up.

I'd like any feedback in terms of handling snow loads, staying quiet in high winds and usable space (particularly slope of walls in the Jannu and Allak).

I'm leaning toward the Jannu (lighter version of Hilleberg Tarra and Saivo).

JANNU
-free standing dome, 3 poles crossing in 3 places
-40" H, 93" L, 57" W
-36.6 sq ft
-13 sq ft vestibule
-1 door
-6 lbs 3 oz. packed weight
-Lighter though still strong Kerlon 1200 fabric
-9 mm poles

Advantages: great combination of strength, lightweight and space. Generous width and length large enough to use for 3 in an emergency. Strong enough to handle snow loading. Probably quieter in high winds than tunnel design. Longer and wider than Allak, yet still high enough for me to sit up. Just about perfect for our all-around winter use, and I could see using it for 3 season higher altitude exposed camps.

NAMMATJ 3
-tunnel that has to be staked out
-42" H, 87" L, 64" W
-36.6 sq ft
-17.2 sq ft vestibule
-1 door
-6 lbs 13 oz. packed weight
-Heavier weight even stronger Kerlon 1800 fabric
-10 mm poles

Advantages: Heavier, stronger fabric and poles; while same area as Jannu, could offer more usable space because of tunnel design; slightly larger vestibule than Jannu with more usable space. Enough room for 3, slightly wider (though shorter in length) than Jannu.

ALLAK
-free standing dome, 3 poles crossing in 3 places
-42" H, 91" L, 51" W
-32.3 sq ft
-2 x 9.7 sq ft vestibule
-2 doors
-6 lbs 6 oz. packed weight
-Lighter though still strong Kerlon 1200 fabric
-9 mm poles

Advantages: While you sacrifice a little interior space compared with the Jannu and Nammatj, you gain an extra door and vestibule, which could make storing and sorting gear easier, and could allow you to use one vestibule for gear and the other for kitchen. As a dome with 3 poles crossing in 3 places, should handle snow loading and high wind very well.

Question 1 – With the Polar Research Station at McMurdo supplying its scientists with Nammatj 3s, I'm sure it's a solid winter tent. However, since it's a tunnel design presenting a horizontal top, I'm wondering – does it handle snow loads well, and how quiet is it in high winds?

Question 2 – How do the Jannu and Allak compare to the Nammatj in terms of usable space? Do the walls of the Jannu and Allak slope so much that usable space is much reduced? While a tunnel should have more vertical walls, the Jannu's walls don't appear to slope down so much that usable space is reduced much. I've got nowhere nearby to check one out.

Question 3 – Would you sacrifice a little interior space for another vestibule – in other words, would you prefer the Jannu's roomier interior design with its single vestible, or the Allak's double vestibule?

I'd like to note that I think the Kaitum is a great design and considered the Kaitum 3 (tunner with 42 sq ft, 2 x 13 sq ft vestibules, 6 lbs 13 oz. packaged weight) but I'm willing to sacrifice the Kaitum's extra space for a tent that can fit in a smaller area, remain quieter in high winds and handle snow loads without having to wake up and bang tent walls. For extra space in protected areas, I think the Kaitum will serve anyone very well. If we could pick up 2 winter tents now, the Kaitum 3 would probably be one of them. For a winter all-arounder, I'd stick with the Jannu, Nammatj or Allak.

Any advice on Hilleberg retailers with good prices? I'm going to try to get a discount on the tent by offering to buy this and some other winter gear at one retailer in exchange for a 20-25% discount, and perhaps combining the purchase with some other members of our Sierra Club winter group.

1) Which if any lightweight stakes for ground use would you use to replace the Hilleberg stakes? Wondering how much weight could be cut from the Jannu or Nammatj 3.

2) Which snow stakes/anchors would you use?

EJ,
Get three BPL members to respond and you will likely get three differant answers.
Hilleberg makes great tents that are of the highest quality in both materials and workmanship. I very much enjoyed my Akto prior to selling this great little shelter.

Based on the options provided I would go:
1) Allak
2) Jannu
3) Nammatj 3

IMO the duel entry and vestibule design for winter conditions is a real plus. Weight, cost and useable area are close to equal. Each would perform well in the conditions intended. I think you would be pleased with any of the shelters on your short list.

Hi Thom,

Thanks very much. Though Steve's comments here http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=17695 gave me pause to consider whether it might be worth it to go with a larger, heavier dual vestibule tent, like the Saivo. In a limitless gear world, I'd probably pick up a heavier, stronger, roomier winter tent like the Saivo, and then a smaller, lighter one like the Jannu which I'd also use for higher altitude exposed camps.

I'm also wondering how much weight can be saved from any of these options by replacing the included stakes with lighter weight ones.

BTW, for anyone who doesn't know, Thom is selling a Bibler Eldorado single wall at a steal at only $300 including footprint. If we were looking for a single wall of this size, we would have snapped it up in an instant.

BTW, here's some info on the weight of the Y pegs that come with the Saivo: http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=43710

The Jannu comes with V pegs – no idea how much they weigh.

The Jannu is not free standing in that the vestibule has to be staked out…Hilleberg calls it self-supporting.

I have a "once used" green Allak for sale…PM me if interested.

b.gin

EJ –

Regarding stakes: the ones that come with the Hillebergs are fine for non-snow use.

For snow, I highly recommend the SMC T-Anchors. By far the best-holding snow stakes I've ever used, and reasonably light.

Depending on conditions, fabric anchors or snow stakes like the ones Hilleberg sells (and which SMC also makes) also can do just fine, as will skis, snowshoes, ice axes and other tools if you can spare them. You can also make deadmen out of sticks or rocks in some locations.

But the T-Anchors are in a league by themselves, in my opinion; definitely worth it if you don't mind the cost.

I tie accessory cord to them to create a loop that I then girth hitch to the lines on my winter tents. Hilleberg's come with clips, which would be handy, and Roger Caffin recently posted an article with a clever solution using a button threaded into the loop.

Regarding the "roomier" Jannu – it's not what I'd call a roomy tent inside when two people are using it, though it has plenty of headroom. The shape of its vestibule, with a shallow sloping roof, makes it less useful for cooking but more useful for storing gear, including things as large as a pulk.

I have other Allak-style tents like the Double Rainbow and Big Sky Evolution 2P, and I have to say I really like having two vestibules, and two openings that provide cross-ventilation.

So, I can't tell you what's right for you, but there's some more info to help sort it out.

I can't find the T-Anchors online. Where are they sold?

Also, Steven, do you have a photo of them with the accessory cord on the way you set them up? I'm not sure I understand what you wrote in your previous post.

Dave

Here's one site that lists T-Anchors for sale:

http://www.whittakermountaineering.com/cat/184/hardware/smc/tanchors

JRS

Thanks for the link Richard, but: wow! $30 per anchor is no fooling around.

They’re only $7.90 each at backcountrygear.com…

Dave –

Here's a version of the T-Anchor costing a whole lot less:

http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/accessdetail.cfm/SMC200

The above version lacks the "convenience" feature found in the more expensive T-Anchor — which appears to have a slot at the top of the stake for inserting an ice axe or hiking/ski pole to set the stake without bending over.

The expensive T-Anchor may also have a cable included, but I'm not sure since I haven't actually seen one in person, and certainly haven't bought one. Must be a great snow stake at that price, or made out of some rare substance.

JRS

Makes me wonder how hard they are to place without using an ice axe.

Also makes me realize that I have no idea how to use these things! ;)

Dave – REI carries them as a 4 pack for $32.
http://www.rei.com/product/701779

The ones I'm talking about are the small ones that weigh about an ounce each (they make larger ones for mountaineering too – different product.)

They're very easy to place – just slide them into the snow at an angle and pat down the snow over them.

The t-anchors linked in Ronald's post weigh one ounce each and are made by SMC.

http://www.rei.com/product/701779

I’ve narrowed my choice of a strong winter wind and snow worthy double wall tent with decent space (+30 sq ft), length and head clearance for my 6ft height, decent storage space, and moderate weight for two down to the Allak and Jannu. It’s a close race.

I’m tending toward the Allak for the dual doors and 9.7 sq ft vestibules, which is like a slightly narrower and tiny bit shorter Jannu with 2 doors and vestibules and a little higher dome.

However, I thought of something that gives the Jannu a slight wind stability edge – the long sharp angle vestibule can be pointed into the wind, presenting a lower angle to the wind, while the Allak presents a dome to the wind from all sides. Thus while the dome section of both tents have roughly the same design and the same weight/strength of materials, the Jannu has a stability edge in high winds and probably also a slight strength edge because it only has 1 door to the Allak’s 2. Which is probably why the American Alpine Institute loves the Jannu.

I realize that I want something that Hilleberg doesn’t make yet – a Jannu with 2 doors and vestibules – essentially a lighter version of the Saivo with the Jannu’s same 36.6 sq ft area or slightly more, Kerlon 1200 instead of the Saivo’s 1800, and the Jannu’s 9 mm poles instead of the Saivo’s 10 mm poles. Or, a Saivo with lighter poles and lighter weight material. I’m guessing that a 2 door, 2 vestibule Jannu, or a lighter material Saivo would weigh in at only 1-1.5 lbs more than the Jannu.

With the prices of Hillebergs as high as they area, I wish they would make this tent for us for close to the price of an off-the-shelf, especially with a detachable 2nd vestibule that could be left home for exposed camps where you might need/want to minimize footprint and profile, and for non-snow cold shoulder season when you just want to save the weight of the 2nd vestibule. That would be ideal for us.

I should note that I prefer a dome design, and consider the Saivo an ideal exposed camp winter tent, but would like to avoid the 10 lb 4 oz weight. I’d deal with the weight if I were using a pulk, or taking a trip where you might explore for days from the same base. I think the Keron with its dual vestibule would also work well. The Kaitum (lighter brother of the Keron) with its dual vestibule should be up there too if you confine yourself to lower, protected camp grounds and are disciplined about brushing snow off the top.

No offense to fans of any other great manufacturers and models – I just couldn’t find what we were looking for in Macpac and other designers in terms of the combination of our specific preferred design type (dome), interior space, storage, weight, quiet, stability, etc. outside of these Hilleberg dome models.

-Allak
Design: Free standing dome, 3 poles crossing in 3 places
Space: 32 sq ft
2 doors, 2 9.7 sq ft vestibules
Packed weight 6 lbs 7 oz
91 in. L, 51 in. W, 42 in. H
9mm poles and Kerlon 1200

-Jannu
Design: Free standing dome with staked-out vestibule, 3 poles crossing in 3 places
Space: 36.6 sq ft
1 door, 1 13 sq ft vestibule
Packed weight 6 lbs 4 oz.
93 in. L, 57 in. W, 39 in. H
9mm poles and Kerlon 1200

-Saivo
Design: Free standing dome with 2 staked-out vestibules, 4 poles crossing in 7 places
Space: 42 sq ft
2 door, 2 14 sq ft vestibules
Packed weight 10 lbs 4 oz.
91 in. L, 68 in. W, 44 in. H
10mm poles and Kerlon 1800

EJ – one minor correction to your stats: the Saivo has four 10mm poles, with 7 crossing points.

Good luck in your choice – all fine tents, and as you know, no one tent will ever be the perfect choice. I have the Jannu and Saivo and of course still wonder whether a Kaitum GT or some other model needs to be added to the already overflowing stable…

Thanks, just corrected Saivo stats. I'm going to write Hilleberg to find out if it's possible to order a Saivo made with Kerlon 1200 and 9 mm poles, or a Jannu with 2 vestibules. I know, probably slim chance, but worth a shot. Who knows, maybe they have one in development already for next year.

A tent like I described would fill a very wide spectrum of winter and high camp use for us, so it would actually wind up saving us $ if they can do it. I'm not asking for one tent to "do it all" 3 and 4 season, but for a winter + exposed camp tent to do all that we want to do with it.

These tents are so expensive that turning out one like this is probably not much more expensive than an off-the-shelf model.

If you like the two doors and the two vestibules, the Allak will hold up to almost any type of winter weather here in the U.S., in my opinion. When the Allak is guided out, it is VERY stable, and will handle high winds and snow loads well. We took the Allak to the Wind River Range last summer for 7 days and we encountered high winds and driving rain and hail, and the Allak hardly budged.

If I remember correctly the Hilleberg family tested this design for two years in Sweden prior to releasing it into production. It also might be worth noting that the Allak was given Field & Stream Magazine’s 2008 Best of the Best Award in the hunting miscellaneous category.

This is not to say that the Jannu is inferior, I have also owned it as well and it is also extremely strong. I just preferred the ventilation of the Allak, because of its two doors. It REALLY can ventilate when the weather warms up. You can't go wrong with either, but if you prefer two doors like me, I'll bet you'd be satisfied with the strength that the Allak possesses.

Disclaimer – I am an authorized Hilleberg retailer and user.

Hi Charles,

I actually found your blog when reading up on the Allak and looking for Hilleberg dealers. I like your philosophy, cheer your exercise gusto and love the pack goats. Now if I could only train our two cats to carry a pack (though they are wiley enough to have us carrying them and their gear). It should bring you much encouragement that my grandfather exceeded by 200% the President's Council on Physical Fitness in Swimming for someone over 30 years his junior when Arnold S. our Governor headed the office and was until recently doing 50 laps/day in an olympic-size pool in his late 90s.

Re the Allak, that's what I've been thinking, though in an ideal world I'd like a little more width (Jannu has 6 in. more) and one of the two vestibules staked out and lower-profile.

I would just love the mix-and-match Double Jannu or Saivo Light I described, though I bet we'd be pretty satisfied with an Allak.

If you are asking for a Jannu with 2 vestibules then you are are asking for more weight…more zippers, a mesh panel under a fabric one, and more stakes. Sounds like you should consider the Staika also: http://estore.websitepros.com/1764795/-strse-57/Staika/Detail.bok

b.gin

I did see the Staika and like it's sizing more than the Allak (it's the heavier version of the Allak with stronger poles and fabric and a little wider interior). But I think the tent fabric and poles are heavier than we need. You can still get plenty strength from Kerlon 1200 and 9mm poles given a strong design, as evidenced by the Jannu and Allak. My ideal, in order of preference:

1) Saivo made with lighter Kerlon 1200 and with lighter 9mm poles

2) Jannu with 2 vestibules instead of one

3) Staika made of lighter Kerlon 1200 and lighter 9mm poles.

Since their tents are made by one person start to finish, and they are family run, I think there's a chance they could do it.

I'm going to ask them how much weight this would translate into for each option.

I'm sure not a small number of people would be interested, especially in a Saivo Light, with all that space, less weight and still preserving a lot of strength.

Charles, I am thinking of getting an Allak, and I was wondering about the attachment of the raincover – does it attach with fastex buckles like the previous generation Staika, or does it use an attachment system like the latest Staika? Or something altogether different?

Spoke with Hilleberg briefly – Saivo Light and Double Jannu ain't going to happen anytime soon, partly because according to Hilleberg (and I believe they are right), 1) the Saivo has so many poles that changing 10mm to 9mm poles is not going to save much weight, 2) the Kerlon 1800 fabric is only slightly heavier than the 1200 and 3) much of the weight comes from the double doors and zippers, which will still be there even with slightly lighter fabric. That's OK, because the Allak is close enough for now and a great quality tent.

Has anyone used/played with the Golite Valhalla and Xanadu? How water-resistant are these Epic tents? Do they only work well as winter tents because they aren't fully waterproof? Are the poles and fabrics strong enough to handle winter winds and snow loading? How do they compare with similar size/weight Hilleberg 4 season shelters?

The larger Golite 4 season tents offer Saivo/Kaitum-like room at low weights and seem to be somewhat similar to Biblers and ID tents in design. It's hard to get enough info from Golite's website – I've asked Golite for more info on size of the vestibules, number of doors, etc.