Goose Down, Humane?

Ethical goose down ??

Thats a joke !

How do you know and what does it mean.

I used to buy organic fruit and vegis form Everman's
way back in the day and then we found out it was just like
everything else from the grocery store, chemical preservatives, dyes etc.

If money is involved be wary of claims.

The only way I would believe goose down was ethical down was if I shot the goose on the wing then plucked after it was dead.

Of course afterwards I would have a tasty meal.

THE ANSWER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wewzGYW_Hrw

"If you really believe that animals have souls, you might also think that a domesticated animal knows it's lot in life after generations of breeding for a specific purpose."

I suggest that you stick the smart@&& comments that you shared earlier in this thread. At least they made sense…

I came across this when I was digging for more info on humanely harvested down. It's good to see that even the big manufacturers are thinking about this issue…

What is Marmot's policy on live plucking of geese?

3. Additionally, we DO NOT use down from geese that have been raised for Foie Gras.

"I suggest that you stick the smart@&& comments that you shared earlier in this thread. At least they made sense…"

I would suppose it's also sort of like the ethical differences between killing a wild melon plant from Africa, vs. a domesticated water melon. The wild melon should have more of a right to live, while the domestic melon knows just what is was brought into this world to do. What is really terrible is when I buy some nice melons and use them for target practice with a firearm. And shame on Gallagher, can you imagine the eternal damnation he is going to face for splatting all those melons with the Sledgomatic!

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"We have …improved… quite a number of "things", as "David", "Panis Angelicus", "Ave Maria", "La Pieta", "The Taj Mahal", the poetry of Li Po, Dante, Cervantes and so many others indicates."

The problem with that Romantic theory of human advancement is that when the Allies entered Auschwitz and the other death camps they found the camp commanders reading Goethe and listening to Mozart … thinking that those particular cultural artefacts represent something pure or wonderful about the human spirit is just the product of a particular society at a particular time. Human tastes change, and what a society values aesthetically changes constantly also.

> Marmot’s Animal Rights Policy:
> We believe in the humane treatment of animals. We do not use down provided
> by “live pluck” operations.

Chuckle. Live pluck from geese at the start of the moult is less ethical than killing them, right?

Or is it that since live-pluck down is usually of a better quality from older birds you would not want to eat, it is consequently MORE EXPENSIVE?

Yes, it is much cheaper to keep the bird for one year and then to kill it for food and sell the body and the down, than to keep and feed the bird for 20+ years and only harvest the down at moult time when it is coming off anyhow.

Great marketing spin, pity about the facts.

Cheers

Good point, Roger. It is rather convenient that their preferred method of harvesting down is both more "humane" (I don't agree, hence the quotation marks) AND more affordable. Here's Tundra's thoughts on the issue of "dead-plucked" down:

"An alternative method is for down to be collected as a by-product of the food industry in which ducks and geese live for just four to six weeks, having been force fed to increase size.

Check out the size of birds on sale in the supermarket and then compare with the traditional images of spring chicks – a four week old chick is tiny compared to their contemporaries on sale at the meat counter!

This also does not seem to us very kind and we do wonder if the short lives of these birds are any more comfortable than those kept for the jet wash process pictured below. Think about the condition our own human hair and skin would be in should we be kept in dark cramped cages and either jet washed or killed off at four to six weeks – not too brilliant we suspect!"

I really like these folks. As Troy suggests, though, a little investigation is warranted.

"Interesting how those that really migrate seem different than those that stay year round."

Yeah, they work for a living instead of porking out on handouts from well meaning urbanites.

Very similar, IMO, to the difference between wild salmon and the farm raised variety.

"The most ridiculous thread I have ever read."

You obviously haven't followed the Great Carbon Flame War or the various gun threads. Check 'em out and see if you still feel this way. ;}

"> Marmot’s Animal Rights Policy:
> We believe in the humane treatment of animals. We do not use down provided
> by “live pluck” operations. "

I'm a bit of skeptic towards Tundra, but even more so of Marmot. When you take into the consideration that the same parent company (Jarden) makes Coleman sleeping bags, as well as Mr. Coffee or Sunbeam kitchen appliances available in every big box dollar store. They can write anything they want, but I don't necessarily buy it.

>> You obviously haven't followed the Great Carbon Flame War or the various gun threads. Check 'em out and see if you still feel this way.

Have not followed any Carbon threads. Total BS anyway and a waste of time since few of us here are scientists with accurate data. We really only know what we have been told and what we have read for the most part and look where that almost got us.

I will say if you really want to dump a lot of carbon into the atmosphere just do away with electricity and let everybody cook and heat with wood fires. Poor people in Haiti dont even have any trees left.

Have seen a few of the gun threads and I can actually understand the gun threads more than a humane down thread. I personally love squeezing off a few rounds, but guns are just not for everybody.

This down thread is more akin to discussing something rediculous like more humane leather seats for my Jag or super models that wont allow photographers to use film because of the geletain, much less eat jello or a myriad of other animal byproducts that are in everything from soup to nuts.

No offense to the OP because it seems like this weighs heavy on his conscious, but everybody seems to miss the big picture, IE the forrest for the trees. Its not this sort of animal rights crap that is the real problem. The real problem is the overall planet resources vs rapid population growth —

so what really taps the overall planet resources more, natural down or synthetic insulation.

The population is roughly doubling every 50 years and if you figure half the dry land on the planet is suitable for cultivation, that means in roughly 300 years or so each person will have to be supported by roughly 1000 sf of land. That is around 32' x 32'. That is food, water, medical, sanitary, shelter etc etc

I doubt there will be any down around by then because all of the geese will have been eaten, so I am going to stock up some goose down for my GGGGGGGGGG grandkids. There certainly wont be any oil for synthetic insulation by then.

Of course my bro in law thinks we will have a plague in the not to distant future and that will take care of that problem.

So in retrospect I just dont find a humane down discussion to be a worthy topic in the grand scheme of things.
Down is natural and that is good. This ethical discussion may be relevant today for some people, but in 50-60 years it will probably mean absolutely nothing to those very same people.

Some might say well then use synthetics, but synthetics are made from a limited oil supply and takes a lot of energy to make so just more wasted resources since they break down from stuffing. Takes a hell of a lot more energy than natural down thats for sure.

Sorry for the OT rant, but these nagging small animal rights topics just drive me nuts, and yes I was a veg at one time.

Troy you have a point in the "big picture" idea. The humaness of my down comes down to more of a personal moral issue than the overall envirnmental question which is more about resources than morals.
As a side note, humans are having less children, one UN report predicts after 2050 or 2075 (can't remember which) the worldwide population will begin to decrease. I'm not saying we don't have to manage things carefully but I'm not convinced the sky is falling yet. At some point we may be offering incentives to people to come to America and work rather than trying to keep them out.

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Wow, George, that's really moving stuff. I'm not familiar with Mary Oliver, but after reading "Wild Geese", I'll be looking for more of her poetry. Thanks for sharing that.

Geese (reconstituted Mary Oliver, just add water)

How my heart leaps,
At their beating wings
Whose strong white arcs cleanly slice the air
As they work their way North or South
Twice each year, pulled by powerful magnets
To and from some place I will never see.
Do they feel a tremor as the warm land turns under them
To steel gray sea?
Do they momentarily falter in their labor
Now that no landing grace will rise to meet them
If they must descend?
But perhaps there is no tremor,
And no labor,
But only fierce desire that moves them on.
And if I could ask of them one gift,
It would be not for their tireless wings,
Or inexhaustible hearts,
But for some small fraction of that desire
Which lofts them home
And home
And home

Really, Sweeney, that is a shameless waste of bandwidth

What Dave T said.

Really, Sweeney, that is a shameless waste of bandwidth

No, I don't think so.

Really, it is all about RESPECT. It's not being nice or friendly to animals. Animals don't need our smiles. Animals that provide us with food and clothing and down deserve our respect whether they are wild or farmed.

Respect for animals. A long time ago, after a successful hunt, tribes danced around the fire in hope that the dead animal would return. This spiritual journey led to harmony.

Now we don't think about it. We have become rude. There is disharmony. There is disrespect. This condition is unsustainable. We will perish.

The next time you use your down garment or bag or quilt, think about the geese that gave you a gift of warmth. Maybe you won't dance around a fire, but stare into your alcohol or solid fuel or gas flame and have some respect for the animal that provided the down.

No, I don't think so either.

Thanks for sharing that.

George, I have a lot of respect for your opinion, but factory "farming" animals shows no respect to them whatsoever.

Point I was trying to make is which is best for the planet as a whole. A natural material or a synthetic material and should not be so much how a goose is plucked.

If the goose gets eaten why not pluck it and use the byproducts. The masters of the environment have always been the indiginous native people, sadly now most of their knowledge is lost. THey did not waste anything and paid great respect to animals, but understood that killing was just a part of life.

As far as the population it does make sense as the population continues to grow that the doubling rate wil lengthen. As it stands right now, using the same land math as above there are about 2.6 acres for each person which is not much.

As far as compassion, right on and be compassionate all you want and that is on an individual and given right, but some er um people are actually more compassionate towards animal and plants than they are other human beings and that just continues to blow me away.

If we are going to be really deeply compassionate it should be for the billion or so people that are living in squalor across the world and not so much trivial issues.

Being compassionate to people and animals are not mutually exclusive. Check out Gandhi or Alice Walker.

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."-Mohandas Gandhi

"The animals of the world exist for their own reasons, they were not created for men anymore than black people were created for whites or women for men."-Alice Walker

How long do you think it will be before science creates an affordable synthetic insulation, that is more insulating, more compressible, longer lasting, and LIGHTER?