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Goose Down, Humane?

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PostedJan 31, 2010 at 7:18 pm

"I wonder if geese and mushrooms can go to this special place in their heads."

I think they were born there and never leave unless we place them in the kind of inhumane, perhaps better described as eminently "humane", conditions discussed in this thread. Then they are doomed to exist in the moment, a totally different proposition. Or perhaps in their final moments in the clutches of a predator. They were born to do what they do so well and, if one observes them closely, obviously derive great joy from living to their fullest in their natural state. It's in their body language, their calls, their interactions with their own kind. That applies to every animal I have ever observed in the wild, and to a lot of domestic ones as well, if given half a chance, i.e. treated with compassion, a word I much prefer to "humane". As for living in the future, most animals are keenly aware of changing conditions and what they bring if there is a pattern established. Whether or not that translates to living in the future, I just don't know. This I am sure of, however; There's a whole lot more going on in non-primate animals' brains than we think, as some of us are just beginning to realize. Hopefully this will give you a little better idea of where I am coming from and leave you a little less depressed to boot. In closing, and in support of my point, may I recommend to you the movie "Winged Migration". It is a moving testament to the sheer joy of living the life an animal was born to.

Dondo . BPL Member
PostedJan 31, 2010 at 7:30 pm

I wonder if geese and mushrooms can go to this special place in their heads. If so, then maybe they don’t really mind being in-prisoned in battery conditions, or live plucked-they merely meditate away the days in pure bliss, living only in the moment.

That is a soothing thought, Lynn, but maybe not too realistic. Those geese in the video I posted on page three of this thread don’t seem to have found their happy place. If it looks, walks, and honks like a goose in distress, it probably is.

Anyway, I came across this column by Nick Kristof and thought that you might be able to relate to some of his experiences. Hope you like it.

Jim Sweeney BPL Member
PostedJan 31, 2010 at 9:08 pm

Thanks, Dondo, for the Kristof column. The image of the goose pleading for its mate's life is very powerful. Others have observed that among the arcs one can trace in human history is the increasing displacement of humans from the center of the universe (by now it's thought that we're not even made up of universe's dominant form of matter), and the ever wider definition of what it means to be human, and to be entitled to human rights. Without being too precise about what it means, I definitely feel that animals are people too.

PostedJan 31, 2010 at 10:22 pm

I think this may be a good time to share Kiki's story. Kiki is the kitty pictured in my avatar.

We found Kiki hiding under a feeding station at a feral cat colony. We were leaving and just did notice something there. Something turned out to be a tiny kitten, emaciated and dehydrated, eyes and nose sealed with discharge, covered with ants. I scooped her up and we took her straight to our vet. I did not expect a good prognosis.

She responded to treatment, though, and proved to have a special vibrance: her core was glowing pure with a lust for life. So we kept her in a cage and had to bottle feed her at first. Since she was feral, as soon as her belly was full, she'd panic and attempt to get away and hide. She had eyes like a frightened, wild animal. Gradually this changed, and she became increasingly social and trusting. She began to look back, deeply into our eyes. She learned to trust, against her instincts, and learned about love.

Kiki quickly developed into the most adventureous Kitty I've ever known. She would leap into investigate anything with uncommon enthusiasm. When she was about a year and half old, she got inside a Chevy Suburban just before its owner got in to drive away. She was trapped in the fanbelt. He called animal control and the fire department. For an hour they attempted to dislodge her as she hung by one leg (we were at work). He finally decided to turn the engine over, forcing her out but also crushing the leg, nearly severing it. She ran off, dragging her leg. Another neighbor was waiting for me to come home and told me of this, and I began searching. Searched until midnight on a cold February night that was around freezing. Resumed at dawn, finding her just before noon. Long story short: she was below 88 degrees and nearly gone, saving the leg was impossible, and the two-week recovery was complicated by the fact that her marrow had shut down from the prolonged shock: her red cell count plummeted and she wasn't eating.

We took her home. She was in obvious pain, and weak, hiding in the corner of a box, not wanting to be touched. I got on my belly on the floor so I could see her eye to eye from about two feet away and just spoke to her softly, telling her how much we loved her, thanking her for fighting so hard. As I was doing this and she was looking back into my eyes, she just started purring. In that moment, her amazing will to live at once combined in my realization with her even more amazing ability to recognize love, to trust this larger predator when she was in such a vulnerable state. I gave up eating mammals and birds on that day in realization and humility: I did not want to contribute to the pain, suffering and erasure of other souls potentially like Kiki's.

She hated to wear the plastic e-collar, so I took it off and explained to her that it had to go back on if she licked or chewed at her sutres. Once or twice in grooming herself, she began to groom that area, and I quickly told her "ah-ah-ah." She immediately moved on to another area, and after those two instances, avoided the sutres: she never had to wear the e-collar again.

In the process of nursing her back to health (she had her own room and my wife and I took turns sleeping with her in a sleeping bag there, helping her to potty until she figured out her new balance, coaxing her to eat until she got her full appetite back, and just keeping her company, we bonded in a way I've never experienced before. Her level of trust and understanding of love grew even stronger. She became my little orange shadow, following me everywhere.

And she quickly redeveloped her amzazing sense of adventure, a wonderment for life that is inspiring. On three legs, she ran everywhere, all the time. She opened drawers and cupboards to investigate their contents. She climbed – anything, and higher and faster than any of our four legged cats.

Now six and half years old and in her prime, I consider her a soul mate. For most of the last several years, she slept every night next to me with her head on my arm or shoulder.

Which is why the last few weeks have been devastating beyond belief.

The same week we had to let our oldest cat, Peko, go due to kidney failure (he got almost two years of pretty good living after the initial diagnosis and three days of IV flush – we gave him sub-q fluids and special diet for that whole time, he ate only sashimi in his final week), that same week, Kiki got sick. And the diagnosis is Feline Infectious Peritonitis (FIP). Let's just say that we were hoping the diagnosis might even be cancer instead of that.

Two weeks ago she was a rocket of orange enthusiasm propelling through the house with wanton joy. Today she is resting but lethargic: I feed and medicate her through a tube in her neck. Yesterday I took her to the vet to have 400cc drained from her abdomen, allowing her to breathe more comfortably. I managed to get her some experimental drugs that just hit clinical trials this month, but her form of FIP (there is a dry form and a wet form) is not the right kind for the study, since they've had much less success treating it in their initial tests. But I talked with the researcher for about an hour and after several emails with the director of the study, they agreed to allow her the trial treatment as a non-participant in the study. A slim chance vs. no chance.

As much discomfort as she has been in at times, she still allows me to treat her: I speak softly, looking into her eyes and explain to her what I am doing and why, and she lets me. I know she doesn't undertand the words, but I also know she is understanding something, so I say the words to ensure that I am communicating as completely, honestly and authentically as I can. It seems to work: my soulmate gets some qualitative part of the message. In her eyes, I can tell she still loves me and still wants to live.

I'm not one for miracles, but I would really, really like to see one here.

PostedJan 31, 2010 at 10:24 pm

It’s just a cat. That’s what I kept telling myself, but even the first time I saw him, ghostly white along the side of the highway, a creeping chill seized my spine, panic seized my suddenly taught muscles, and fear seized my imagination. It was a particularly dark night and overcast, after a nearly windless and solemn rain had been falling steadily over the valley for several hours. I was nearly home and feeling sleepy when the sudden sight of a large white cat sitting like some kind of sentinel of doom on the side of the road, almost glowing supernaturally, was inexplicably there. I gasped and then laughed nervously, shaking my head, saying, “it’s just a cat.” A rather large, all white cat with a strange aura and presence about him. I drove home with a lingering sense of panic and fear. I had a dream disturbed night of sleep, dreams of frightening large cat’s eyes staring with uncanny penetration, as if right into my soul.

The next morning driving by the same spot, I couldn’t help but look to where I’d seen the ghost cat the night before. My heart seemed to skip a beat, and I drew a sudden breath: there was a cat’s body on the side of the highway, crumpled and broken. But it was not a white cat, and it was not a particularly large cat. She was a smallish tabby, and my fear flowed into sadness, my eyes tearing up for this unknown kitty. But soon I could only think about that other cat, the ghost cat haunting my mind.

I don’t know why I didn’t tell anyone about the ghost cat at that time. Gradually, the fear and the memory subsided, blurred. I imagined more and more that it was just my imagination, that there had not really been any white cat. It was so fast, almost out of the corner of my eye. It could easily have just been my eye and my mind playing tricks on me. I could have been, but it wasn’t.

A couple months later I woke up in the middle of the night, uncomfortable for some reason that I couldn’t figure out. I walked to the kitchen but I wasn’t hungry. As I turned to head back to bead, a frozen hand seized my heart, chilled my lungs. Out the window, jus beyond the patio, was that horrible white cat, staring directly at me, green eyes blazing and piercing deep, as if to my soul. I couldn’t move. I don’t think I took a breath for over a minute; I was just frozen in place by fear. I turned to look down the hall, and when I turned back, the cat was gone. My shoulders dropped and I just stood, bracing my arm against the wall, gasping for air.

Then I noticed that our little cat, Felicia, a beautiful, sleek black queen with a diamond of white on her chest and a constantly happy mood, with little chirps of joy at petting, playing with string, getting her snacks, was curled up in the corner by the couch, her breathing labored. On my knees by her side, I looked into her eyes that were clouded over with pain. I did not know what could be wrong with her, but I knew it was serious, very serious. I looked up to think and almost pressed against the glass right in front of me saw the glaring green eyes and monstrous head of the ghost cat. I screamed. I did not shout or gasp, but screamed like a little girl. This of course woke my wife, who came out sleepily but alarmed, and within minutes we were on our way to the emergency vet. Dear Felicia died on the way. She had a heart defect and her lungs had filled with fluid. As her heart failed, she got less and less air with each breath from the increasing fluid in her lungs, an ever tightening circle of symptoms that each made the other progress increasingly rapidly, until she just expired, unable to circulate enough oxygen any longer. That was the vet’s conclusion.

But I knew something else had killed little sweet Felicia. In my mind, the terror of the ghost cat was growing into something demonic, something more terrible and evil than the dark hound of the Baskervilles. I knew now that I had seen him that night after the rain, and he had taken that poor little tabby, and now he had taken our Felicia from us, too. Dark hatred mixed with fear cast a gloomy shadow over my days. I began to talk about the ghost cat, the demon cat to some people, who all concluded that I was grieving Felicia, that it would pass, that I was always a bit over sensitive.

Although I did not see the ghost cat again for a couple of years, my life and my perception had changed. I was watching for the cat. I don’t know what I thought I could do. It was a supernatural fiend; I was sure of that. What power could I have over it? Then, one night as I was scanning the yard before bed, as had become my custom, I thought I saw a white shadow, a large white cat. But it was gone. Again that night like many others, I had dreams of white demons with dark hearts and penetrating green eyes.

The next morning, I noticed that our dearest cat, Kikichan, was not feeling well. She didn’t eat her breakfast, was not responding much to anything. She was just curled up in her little kitty bed by the fireplace, looking miserable. When she still hadn’t eaten a day later, we took her to the vet for an examination. After a series of tests and much anxiety, we learned that she had Feline Infectious Peritonitis, FIP, essentially a death sentence. My wife through tears listened to the vet’s analysis and answers to her questions, “it is a mutation of a common virus… we don’t know why but it sometimes mutates… there have been some anecdotal accounts of cats surviving but there is no known cure….,” but I knew why Kikichan was so sick. It was not the virus that was the cause: it was that damned ghostly demon cat.

I was determined to fight this monster. I saw him increasingly over the next two weeks, as Kikichan continued to get weaker and weaker. I cursed the demon cat, screamed at him, threw rocks, but he nonchalantly ignored my curses, dodged my projectiles. He just kept staring. And getting closer. At first on the periphery of the yard, each night I’d see him closer, his ghastly face larger, those terrible green eyes burning into my brain.

It was just not fair; Kikichan was such a special being. We loved all the cats in our lives, saw them as our friends, not pets. The love they can comprehend and respond with is humbling and inspiring. Kikichan took that as a starting point and perfected it; she knew us inside and out. I would sooner die than see her die, and upon first thinking that, I began to say it, too. I demanded that the demon cat leave Kikichan alone. “Take me!” I shouted at the cat. His ear twitched. I shouted it again, and he shifted his gaze from the window just beyond where Kikichan was curled up weakly in her kitty bed, to my face. Those eyes bore into my soul once more. I stared back in angry defiance, but I was also afraid. The ghost cat walked off.

The next day, I was telling this story to a man in the park. He just happened to sit on the same bench where I sat. I had suddenly felt my legs weaken while walking in the park, worrying about Kikichan and trying to figure out how I could save her from a supernatural beast. The man, unlike most people I would tell about the ghost cat, seemed to accept my story without judgment, without eyes rolling just a bit or starting to look at me like I’m some kind of a crazy person. He just listened. When I said I wanted to trade my life to save Kikichan, he merely replied, “you did,” almost a statement, a simple acknowledgement rather than a surprised questioning, and this put me at great ease. For the first time in quiet a long time, I felt myself relax just a bit.

Then he told me that there are amazing things in life that are not always what they seem. That there are “helpers,” who exist to ease the transition from one plane of existence to the next. He told me that this white cat, rather than the horrific demon that I was imagining, was rather a benevolent soul who was there to help make the transition for other cats less frightening, to walk with them across the bridge so that they are not alone, to serve as a guide and a friend. The more he talked, the more relaxed and calm I felt. I didn’t yet believe him, but I was impressed at how compassionate and kind it was for him to say these things to me. We talked for quite some time.

But then I began thinking about Kikichan and was suddenly anxious to get back to her, to spend some time with her. That’s when my new friend in the park surprised me by saying, “you don’t have to worry about Kikichan any more.”

I looked at him, a double take of surprise, “but, the white cat–even if as you say, he’s a helper….”

He cut me off with a gentle wave of his hand, adding, “The white cat will not come back for Kikichan any time soon. She is going to live a long and happy life.”

I didn’t understand. “But I still should be going….”

He smiled and stood up with me, putting a hand on my shoulder. “And I will be going with you. You will not have to walk the bridge alone.”

I felt a sudden panic, then said, “I traded my life for Kikichan….”
And he smiled gently and answered, “You did.” Then he told me, “You felt tired and took a rest here on this bench. You had a mild stroke, fell asleep, and while asleep had a massive stroke. It was very fast and there was no pain. I sat here and waited for you to wake up from your body.”

“You are a helper?”

“I am. I am your helper.”

“And Kikichan is okay?”

“Kikichan has had a miraculous recovery, thanks to you. And, I should tell you this: she knows it. The white cat told her.”

“Can I… see her?”

“All the time. And since she is a cat, she will know when you are watching over her. She will purr spontaneously each time. Cats can see better than humans. I don’t know why exactly, but they can see helpers and some of what is across the bridge, especially people and cats they knew as friends.”

“She can see me?”

“Yes.”

I looked down on little Kikichan, and she lifted her head a little, a sleepy, half lidded look in my direction accompanied by a little birdlike chirp of happy recognition. And then she started purring. She put her head back down and just kept purring.

As I followed my friend from the park bench towards a shining bridge, I could still hear her purring.

Henry Blake BPL Member
PostedFeb 1, 2010 at 9:04 am

I started to read this thread because it had many, many comments. Many interesting points were discussed. I think that a person's concept of whether there is a God, or not, and if so, what kind of a God he (she, it) is, determines a lot about how someone may think about these things. So here's my idea (the part of it I'll share).

First in importance is to care for people, our fellow-man—our family, friends, neighbors, fellow earth citizens—all mankind. But of course, not to the exclusion of other important things (like hobbies (backpacking), animals, the earth we live on). But let's get a lot better at taking care of people, being kind and considerate, being caring, generous and giving, and all the other virtues. Better developing those attitudes will "rub off" into other aspects of our lives, to include perhaps plants and animals.

There are usually many choices in front of us on a regular daily basis. Most often, the possible choices are all good options. If we develop a "good, better, best" attitude, it means that we will choose the "best" option at the time, to spend our time on, whatever that is.

And in this manner, maybe we can all be just a little bit better each day.

PostedFeb 1, 2010 at 10:55 am

IMO, nature will answer.
========================

Here follows an excerpt from a Carl Jung talk in Zurich in 1938…

You see nobody wants war, but everybody goes to war, because they all assume they don't want it. That is the truth. But at the same time, we play with the idea of war, because it is a wonderful sensation. Yet we do not recognise this; therefore we are convinced that we don't want a war, and we project it. That was true, in the world war, nobody wanted it, but nobody could stop it, nobody could get in control of the situation. And the terrible part is that human beings did it. Now if a terrible god were influencing mankind, or a dangerous devil, we would ask ourselves what we could do to propitiate him and prevent such a catastrophe. But we think there is no such thing, no devil, no god, no ruling power. If anybody wants war it is the Germans or the French, the English or the Italians. If you can find the slightest trace of a tendency to war in them, you are sure it is they who want it. We don't assume responsibility, we simply say they want it. While all the time nobody really wants it consciously. Probably nobody in this room wants a war consciously, and just as little do the people outside in the world want it. Who then makes a war?

Just as we don't want a war, we are also capable of wanting it only we don't know it. That we could wish for a war is a terrible thought, but let us assume there are too many people in the world too great an increase in the population, so that we are too close to one another, too crowded upon each other, and finally we hate each other. Then the thoughts begin to develop: What can we do about it? Could we not cause a conflagration? Could we not kill that whole crowd in order to get a little space? Or suppose that life is too hard, that you don't get a job, or the job doesn't pay, or other people take it away from you. If there were fewer people life would be much easier to live that it is now. Don't you think that slowly the idea would dawn upon you that you want to kill that other fellow? Now we must admit that in no other time have there been so many people crowded together in Europe. It is a brand new experience. Not only are we crowded in our cities, we are crowded in other ways; we know practically everything that happens in the world, it is shouted on the radio, we get it in the newspapers. If someone falls off his bicycle in Siam we get it in the post next day; we are impressed with an unheard misery when we hear of so many people having been drowned in China, so many starved in Siberia, so many killed in Spain, and perhaps a railway accident in Norway, and always a revolution in South America. You see we are impressed with all the misery of the world, because the whole world is now shouting in our ears every day. We enjoy it and we don't know what it is doing to us until finally we get the feeling that it is too much. How can one stop it? We must kill them all.

When I was in India I talked with certain people of Swaraj party who want Home Rule. I said: "But do you assume that you can run India with your party? – Do you not realize that in no time you would have a terrible quarrel between the Mohammedans and the Hindus? – they would cut each other's throats, they would kill each other by the hundreds of thousands." "Yes, naturally," he said, "they would." "But don't you think that is awful? – they are your own people." "Oh well, for those worthless chaps to cut each other's throats is just right, we have an increase in population of 34 millions these last ten years." Now India has always been threatened by famine, even by increasing the irrigated area the greater parts of the Indian population would be underfed, the cattle are underfed already. You see if you wipe out all epidemics, too few people will die; therefore that awful political idea. No politician would dare admit such ideas here. But that is the East, there they are not hampered with such sentimentalism, such honest lies as we cultivate; they just admit it and that is right… All well meaning people are terribly concerned with the fast increasing population; ask what they are going to do about it, and there is no answer.

But nature will answer. We think we are good and we are, yes, we have the best of intentions sure enough, but so you think that somewhere we are not nature, that we are different from nature? No, we are in nature and we think exactly like nature… So we should say – and I would like to say – that there is a terrible demon in man that blindfolds him that prepare awful destruction, and it would be much better if we had a temple for the god of war, where now, for instance with all this trouble in Europe, we could say: the god of war is restless, we must propitiate him, let us sacrifice to the god of war. And then every country would be going to the temples of the war god to sacrifice, perhaps it would be a human sacrifice, I don't know, something precious, they might burn up a lot of ammunition or destroy cannons for the god of war. That would help. To say that it is not we who want it would help because man could then believe in his goodness. For if you have to admit that you are doing just what you say you are not doing, you are not only a liar, you are a devil, and then where is the self esteem of man? How can he hope for a better future? We can never become anything else because we are caught in that contradiction, on the one side we want to do good and on the other we are doing the worst. How can man develop? He is forever caught in that dilemma. So you had better acknowledge the evil, what you call it doesn't matter. If there were priests who said that the god of war must be propitiated that would be a way of protecting yourself. But of course there are no such things, so we must admit that we prepare the war, that we are just thirsty for blood, everybody.

PostedApr 30, 2010 at 3:44 pm

Here is a swedish video of geese being plucked.

Among otherthings.

The plucking starts at 15 minutes in.
The birds get stitched up when the skin is ripped by
the pluckers without medication.
Not for the squeamish.

http://anytime.tv4.se/webtv/main.do?progId=729261

"I hope all the bright and committed people out there in Backpacking light land can help me. I have been an avid outdoors lover for many years and have in the last few years turned toward light weight backpacking to explore the outdoors. I have also always considered myself an environmentalist and animal lover. I am a vegetarian and do not wear leather. For many years I also did not use down products. I obviously knew of its light weight and compressibility but did not think it ethical. Then I was told, by a North Face rep. that older geese produce the best down and thus geese are not killed to gather down. I was happy and excited and I quickly bought a Montbell Down Jacket Nunatak down quilt and even down booties. Lately though I have been giving this shift some thought. Is the weight saving worth the moral uncertainty? Are geese really not killed for outdoor gear down? Even if they are not how traumatic and or painful is the harvesting process for the geese? I do wear wool and do believe animals can be "used" by humans in ways that benefit us and harm them as little as possible. So my question is does anyone out there know more about how down is sourced? Are the geese used in down for the outdoor industry really not killed? How painful or traumatic is harvesting for the geese? Is it akin to shearing merino wool sheep or is it torturous? I know Backpacking light carries many great lightweight synthetic garments and gear so no matter what I may look to that in the future. However, I would still like to know more about down. Rarely if ever do I condemn people for making the decisions they do I just want to be able to enjoy the outdoors, and carry as light a load as possible, both physically and psychologically."

Jeff Patrick BPL Member
PostedApr 30, 2010 at 3:50 pm

If you really worried, only buy products with Eider down. I think thats how its spelled and I Nunatak.

Its more expensive, but its also the best down available because it has unique properties.

Because the ducks that produce the down are protected, the down is gathered by hand from their nests so its only down that naturally falls off the bird.

So not only will you be humane, but you'll get the best product available.

From the nunatak website:
May 2005:

Listen up, all you ultra gear heads. You thought you had everything? Well, Nunatak can now bring to market, on a limited basis, the ultimate fill for any of our down products. But it comes at a price. Read on…

Think Classic Eider Down. The revered, the rare. A unique wild down. Grown under Arctic tundra conditions. Down so fine, so incredibly light, that loft and volume and fill weight have a new standard, an eider down benchmark… The quality is top notch, the loft is amazing as time has tested, and the finished bag or jacket is a one of a kind.

Our supplier gently hand collects this amazing product in the wild, directly from the nest, without disturbing the bird, in portions so small that it takes weeks to get enough to fill a bag. Certified genuine Eider Down from extreme Northern Canada, minimally processed, very unique.

Why would you want Eider? Warmth, loft, lightest possible weight, durability, and yes, prestige, are just a few of the reasons that comes to mind. Make up more yourself. Because certain things in life can't be logically justified.

Should you get it? Well, can you afford it? Because of its rare nature and painstaking collection process, the price of this stuff is extraordinary. We add a $125.00 surcharge per ounce of down for the exclusive privilege to own this one of a kind sleeping bag or jacket. Per ounce, remember?. That means, for example, the humble Ghost in size medium will go from $307.00 to $1187.00. Perfectly reasonable.

Call today, 1 866 NUNATAK or read more about the Eider
http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?id=38

EndoftheTrail BPL Member
PostedApr 30, 2010 at 3:56 pm

Not saying this is above reproach… but those of us who are already eating chickens, geese and duck… harvesting down is much, much less an issue, no?

EndoftheTrail BPL Member
PostedApr 30, 2010 at 4:55 pm

C'mon… the industrial poultry farms and cattle feed lots are much, much more inhumane in their entirety — so why focus on just the plucking? My 2 cents.

Or maybe it's just way cooler to focus on down and whale meat?

Bob Gross BPL Member
PostedApr 30, 2010 at 4:56 pm

Personally, I will worry more if the price of down is up.

–B.G.–

Bob Gross BPL Member
PostedApr 30, 2010 at 5:32 pm

If the price of down is down to zero, then it has no price, so then it is priceless. If down is up, then it wouldn't be down, would it?

–B.G.–

PostedApr 30, 2010 at 5:52 pm

"If down is up, then it wouldn't be down, would it?"

Unless it went down the Rabbit Hole"?

Dondo . BPL Member
PostedApr 30, 2010 at 6:47 pm

C'mon… the industrial poultry farms and cattle feed lots are much, much more inhumane in their entirety — so why focus on just the plucking?

Agreed, Ben. I may not be able to do anything about any of it but I don't have to support it with my $$$ either.

EndoftheTrail BPL Member
PostedApr 30, 2010 at 8:34 pm

Franco and Tom:

Ummm, isn't there some motel that you two can take this to?

Gabe P BPL Member
PostedApr 30, 2010 at 8:51 pm

I'm not convinced that synthetic insulation is more humane, since the toll on the environment — from manufacturing and disposal — must be significant.

PostedApr 30, 2010 at 9:09 pm

How do you calculate the TRUE cost of anything these days?

I paid $2.97 a gallon for gas this morning…yet look at the f-ing fiasco in the gulf right now.

It seems that the first step in getting right with the world, regardless of which side of the debate you stand on concerning the ethics of down, environmental impact, etc., is to just simply stop buying stuff when we don't need to.

If geese are to suffer for your bag or synthetics ruin the environment, then the very least you can do is make sure you use it until it's in tatters before buying and shipping a new one across the globe.

Being a gear-junkie consumer trying to keep up with the Jones' is probably the worst possible scenario in all regards- for animals, the environment, and ultimately us and our kids.

Travis L BPL Member
PostedApr 30, 2010 at 9:35 pm

"It seems that the first step in getting right with the world, regardless of which side of the debate you stand on concerning the ethics of down, environmental impact, etc., is to just simply stop buying stuff when we don't need to."

+1

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