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Poor wording by me. IMO, mass farming is the result of us losing our respect for animals. It is done to maximize profits and nothing else. It is what it is.
What I was trying to say is that most of us don't think about the source of our warmth and comfort if we use a down quilt or bag while backpacking on a cold night. There is no longer a connection between what we take and give back.
re tom
they never will make a synthetic better than down.
George, I hear you. We're on the same page.
"How long do you think it will be before science creates an affordable synthetic insulation, that is more insulating, more compressible, longer lasting, and LIGHTER?"
Probably sooner rather than later. The LIGHTER will be the driver. I for one will add it to my shopping cart.
nm
Are you sure?
Until oil is too expensive.
It would be interesting to find out exactly how much oil + how much energy it takes to make a pound of poly fiberfill.
Right now everything is upsidedown because we have a few very cheap energy sources and oil is a moderately priced raw material that basically everything manufactured synthetic item on earth is made from.
>>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/11/60minutes/main5968057.shtml
Cool, Maybe they can figure out how to grow super down in a dish.
The Peace of Wild Things
When despair for the world grows in me
and I wake in the night at the least sound
in fear of what my life and my children's lives may be,
I go and lie down where the wood drake
rests in his beauty on the water, and the great heron feeds.
I come into the peace of wild things
who do not tax their lives with forethought
of grief. I come into the presence of still water.
And I feel above me the day-blind stars
waiting with their light. For a time
I rest in the grace of the world, and am free.
— Wendell Berry
The difference between animals and humans living in squallor is humans have the ability to think "maybe I should not bring another mouth to feed into this world when I and even my community cannot afford to."
Joseph
Value of down vs oil
I saw where someone calculated oil vs gold
I added both vs water
Let's get down to it…
The dimensions of a standard 55 gallon drum are 33.5 inches high and 22.5 inches in diameter.
Calculation:
3.14 * 11.25^2 * 33.5. = 13,313 cubic inches / 1,728 = 7.7 cubic feet.
The Specific Gravity of Gold is 19.3. So 19.3 grams occupy 1 cubic centimeter.
1 Troy ounce is 31.1 grams. To get the volume of 1 Troy oz., 31.1 / 19.3 = 1.61 cubic centimeters.
1 cubic foot = 28,316 cubic centimeters
The drum or 7.7 cubic feet = 218,039.7 cubic centimeters
218,039.7 / 1.61 = 135,428.39 troy ounces x $1,100.00 = $148,971,229
Price of barrel of oil approximately $75
$148,971,229 / $75 = 1,986,283 barrels of oil.
IMO, seems like gold is really high compared to what you could do with the energy of almost 2 million barrels of oil.
Water…
My local water cost is $1.24 per 100 cubic feet
or .0124 per cubic foot
7.7 x .0124 = .09548 (about 10 cents per barrel of water) Good deal!
A barrel of gold for water = how many barrels?
$ value of barrel of gold / .09548 = 1,560,235,566 barrels of water
What's wrong with this picture?
Gold is only very valuable because we perceive it to be so.
A barrel of gold can get you about 2 million barrels of oil.
A barrel of gold can get you about 1 1/2 billion barrels of water.
Interesting how life depends on water, but the other two.
Now someone else can figure out how many barrels of DOWN we can get for a barrel of gold. Thanks in advance.
Good poem.
A barrel of oil is 42 US gallons…
Yes it is. My favorite actually.
Not only is a barrel of crude 42 gallons but Brent Crude was named after a variety of GOOSE.
Geesh, I go away for a weekend and look what happens! We've covered religion, carbon flames, population explosion, euthanasia, guns. We've disagreed over what is "alive" and what can be "killed", factory farming, and just about everything else that is controversial except sex…
Some people have commented that, by definition, life means killing. Just this weekend I was contemplating the amazing growth of our little Oyster mushroom farm, and was amazed that such exponential growth was possible just using dead wood, cardboard, straw, autumn leaves etc…no killing involved. Then I was reminded of a question I asked a Hari Krishna devotee many moons ago as to whether eating fungus and yeast was considered killing in their religion. They didn't think so (but weren't 100% sure)…so to this day I figure it must be OK to eat those tasty little morsels. Now I'm not so sure.
I also note most plants manage to live and grow without killing anything. So I basically disagree that to live is to kill.
As others have said, morality and ethics is about drawing a line. Vegetarians draw the line differently to non-vegos, and vegans draw a different line again, fruitatarians draw and even stricter line more in agreement with Miguel's arguments. It does no good to pick a fight with a vegetarian just because they have drawn their line as they see fit, any more than it is to pick a fight with someone who wants ethically harvested down. Personally, I suspect there isn't such a thing as truly ethically harvested down. Live plucking is no doubt uncomfortable and frightening for the bird. The vast majority of birds grown for food are not ethically treated at most stages of their lives, and that leaves eider down harvest as the only other possible source of down, and there's no way this will ever be able to supply the down desires of a bulging planet.
I am also interested to see that the places where Buddhism was born and thrived as a vegan culture just happen to be warm climates. As soon as Buddhism tried to migrate to colder climates, it had to be adapted to allow access to realsitic food supplies and warm bedding and clothing. If the greatest religions in the world can't come up with a single ethical answer, I don't like the chances of this forum solving the issues. However, I DO hope that in future more down suppliers will allow us the information to make our choices based on our own internal moral compass.
We'll all have wildly divergent opinions/life views about the large issues, and honest comparison can give us the opportunity to look at each others' opinions in a non-suppressive way (which amazingly has almost entirely been the case in this thread), but if ever it seems anyone is a bit too rigid, it's good to recall a great quote from Christopher Hitchens, "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."
"The difference between animals and humans living in squalor is humans have the ability to think "maybe I should not bring another mouth to feed into this world when I and even my community cannot afford to.""
+1, perhaps more…
"The difference between animals and humans living in squalor is humans have the ability to think "maybe I should not bring another mouth to feed into this world when I and even my community cannot afford to."
Sadly this is not often the case, otherwise the greatest increases in population would be occurring in developed countries instead of the poorest countries. People living in abject poverty do not have access to the birth control or education needed to make this kind of "informed" decision.
"Sadly this is not often the case, otherwise the greatest increases in population would be occurring in developed countries instead of the poorest countries. People living in abject poverty do not have access to the birth control or education needed to make this kind of "informed" decision."
Well, you are, of course, right. I have to agree with this. Still frustrates me though. And I'm talking the world over, not just in impoverished countries.
" also note most plants manage to live and grow without killing anything. So I basically disagree that to live is to kill."
Unfortunately not the case. They kill each other all the time by out-competing the less vigorous of their own kind or less vigorous species for sunlight, water, and nutrients, and also by emitting toxins that do other species in. Luck of the draw as to which seed gets deposited where, or first, etc. :(
"Still frustrates me though. And I'm talking the world over, not just in impoverished countries."
Amen.
And Tom, you can be very depressing sometimes.
Thats true Lynn (poor countries having a higher birth rate because of poverty). Another factor is social values that encourage it. Also traditionally your kids have provided for you when you get older. Actually I like the system of families looking out for their own more than letting the government or some corperation do it.
"And Tom, you can be very depressing sometimes."
Guilty as charged, Lynn. I even depress myself sometimes. I tell myself that it is because I see the world as it is, rather than as I want it to be, but I'm not so sure about that a lot of the time either. We all live in a world best described by Socrate's Allegory of the Cave, methinks.
But then, I go out for a good hike, or a long backpacking trip and none of that matters. There is only the moment, and that is as it should be. Or as I want it to be??
"But then, I go out for a good hike, or a long backpacking trip and none of that matters. There is only the moment, "
I wonder if geese and mushrooms can go to this special place in their heads. If so, then maybe they don't really mind being in-prisoned in battery conditions, or live plucked-they merely meditate away the days in pure bliss, living only in the moment. That's a very soothing thought. I notice my hens seem to go into a meditative trance when they are laying eggs…but they also sometimes live in the future. For instance, every time you walk out towards their area they make the "oh look, maybe she'll give us something yummy" noise that all chickens make.
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