Goose Down, Humane?

Interesting point about people's tendancy/desire to believe in the supernatural.
Regarding the philosophy I don't see the idea of "dominion" as a bad thing, people are the only ones who can make rational choices about envirnmental matters so they have "dominion" whether they call it that or not.

I was wondering if someone would bring the whole synthetics/goose down/sustainablity issue up. I've seen people wearing stylish synthetic who don't have a clue about the natural world get in a self rightous huff because they saw a man wearing leather clothes explaining the traditional lives of Native Americans to kids in school. We all thought it was hilarious but its also rather narrow thinking so I'm glad we're having a good discussion here.

I guess if it is ethical or not depends on how the down was collected?? Just be happy with yourself and don't ask the internet to tell you what is ethical! Go with your gut.

Our human morals and ethics have no bearing on the universe whatsoever. Will there be effects of human choices? Of course! But to rocks, geese, plants, and black holes the effects are neither good or bad, it is only one thing…reality. What is happening now, what has happened, and what will happen.

I guess what I mean is as long as you get a good nights sleep because the universe does not give a rats ass about your ethics or goose down.

I would like to thank very much everyone for their interesting and insightful replies to my posting. I never expected such a discussion about religion and basic ethics to emerge.

I am an atheist so I base my ethics on my own observations of the world and on the advice of people I trust, however, we all draw on something to create are moral world view be it God, PETA, or the man raving about CIA spy satellites on the street corner.

I will most defiantly read the two articles mentioned in the first few posts and have decided to write some of my favorite down gear producing companies and ask them if they know how their down is sourced. If they are Eider ducks, from meat producing geese etc…

I most certainly understand the grave concerns regarding petroleum based products and a larger carbon footprint is certainly not something I am after, however, if I see a gaggle of majestic geese rising from a pond when collecting water at a camp site I hate to think I had tortured his cousin just to stop a chill that night.

By the way I have lived my entire life in Montreal, Canada the place with the largest temperatures swings of any major city in the world so I know a thing or two about needing warm cloths for my day to day life. Since, however, when running out to the store or going for a walk with my dog weight and compressibility are not an issue it would never even occur to me to wear down in the city. Additionally, I wanted to bury my grandmothers old fur coats and consider that sort of "fashion" to be totally reprehensible. If I lived in Nunavut, northern Canada, however, I would probably see things differently, and rightfully so. Anyways thanks again for your comments and I will continue to check on the replies to see how the discussion develops.

Michael, in case you want to see what the live plucking of geese looks like, check out this video. The action starts around 1:15. Not for the squeamish.

"I guess if it is ethical or not depends on how the down was collected?? Just be happy with yourself and don't ask the internet to tell you what is ethical! Go with your gut."

Well, my gut likes to know how the animals are treated before I make any personal ethical decisions. And I think this is the gist of the OP…how do you find out where and how your down came to be? For some it matters not one IOTA as they feel "animals" (as in non-humans) are ours for the exploiting in any way we feel fit. Of course, we used to think that about "sub-humans" such as African slaves, but times and mindsets can change, and maybe geese can be viewed as sentient animals with a desire to be treated 'humanely', at least up to the point of death. I doubt this will happen on a large scale due to economic costs. Many cultures (western ones in particular) keep their livestock in tortuous conditions for days or weeks before actually killing them, so I don't hold out much hope for the lowly non-placental geese or duck living in the most populated country in the world :(

Guys (and gals):

Considering how many millions of chickens we slaughter every year (not that we treat them that well cooping them all up while they’re alive) — what’s plucking a few geese?

EDIT: It’s 269 chickens every second, 2.7 million chickens every day, or 8.4 billion chickens every year!!!

Put things in perspective. All better now. :)

Considering how many millions of chickens we slaughter every year (not that we treat them that well cooping them all up while they're alive) — what's plucking a few geese?

Time to cue up my chicken video. ;-)

"Considering how many millions of chickens we slaughter every year (not that we treat them that well cooping them all up while they're alive) — what's plucking a few geese?"

That is actually offensive to those of us who grow our own happy and loved free-range chickens. It's not the killing that matters to me, it's how they are treated up to that point. Same for humans really. I am all for humane euthanasia (of any animal), but not the torture of keeping an ill and in pain terminal patient alive when they would be better off dead. Or actually treating them badly before you euthanase them. Uh oh, now this really is chaff!

Ben,

That is why I don't eat chicken and only eat eggs from free range chickens. It is truly horrible how they are treated, just one more example of the problems with large corporate approaches to life.

Shed a tear for chickens, but let's not forget where veal comes from! :(

You look at our giant agri-business — from giant chicken "farms" to giant cattle feed lots — none of it is very pleasant.

Stating my own opinion here — but folks who eat beef, pork, chicken, turkey, etc., etc. — don't waste your time switching your bag from down to synthetics. The only thing you are really soothing is just your own ego. Same with fur too, I suppose.

I won't argue with vegans or strict vegetarians. But as a meat eater, my two criteria are:

1. if the animal is not endangered, and
2. if the killing can be done swiftly/humanely

then go for it.

So, who's going to step up and go beyond merely being a cottage gear maker, to being a organic goose farmer and ultralight quilt builder? The free range geese will live a tranquil life and down will only be removed from their nests. Eggs will be dehydrated and used with the all organic beans and vegetables (that are fertilized by goose and merino wool-bearing sheep dung) for all organic backpacking meals. For this guilt-relieving socially conscious privilege we will all gladly pay $1,500 per quilt (with a 3 year wait) and $25 per packaged meal.

"You look at our giant agri-business — from giant chicken "farms" to cattle feed lots — none of it is very pleasant.

Stating my own opinion here, anyone who eats beef, pork, chicken, turkey, etc., etc. — don't waste your time switching your bag from down to synthetics. The only thing you are really soothing is just your own ego. Same with fur too, I suppose."

Wrong. We have choice about where our meat and eggs come from, and to me this thread is about now finding out where our down comes from so we can also make choices on that too. I do not support factory farmed anything, period. My work sometimes involves working with mice and rats, and the ethics dictated to us by scientific advisory boards means most of the animals are more humanely treated (and healthier) than the meat that goes on the average American table. Thankfully I live in a land where most animals are still pasture farmed free-range, some of them on huge high country stations (like the nice merino everyone enjoys). My only objection to their conditions is around slaughter, where they are starved and thirsty and jammed into tight cages and put on a truck to go the the slaughterhouse, where they then wait in line as they hear and smell the fear and death of their fellow inmates. Surely we can treat our animals better than this (geese included)???

Interesting posts.

Almost everyday I take a lunch time break and walk around a couple of ponds. There are many ducks and geese. It's amazing to watch them grow from nest eggs to cute -lings to goofy looking things to the sheistmachines. They stay through the winter. What happened to flying south? Bird adaptation I suppose.

One thing I have seen several times is a goose plucking another goose. This is a domination type thing I guess to become intimidate. It works. The pluckee moves on rather quickly.

Also there is down all over the place during summer. So the down plucks itself too. MYOG…

There are no shortages of ducks and geese where I walk. From what I've observed you could get the down while they are alive (if you were a tuff-sob) or wait until it falls off. Live and dead down is abundant.

Not nice. The birds fight and if you ever witness the mating season – you'd know they are not as warm and friendly as your down quilt.

I guess we need a War On Down or Policy of Plucking Abstinence.

Re: Lynn Tramper's last post.

Who gave YOU the right to decide when another person would be better off dead? Geezuz, that kind of attitude scares me!

So, who’s going to step up and go beyond merely being a cottage gear maker, to being a organic goose farmer and ultralight quilt builder?

Would a sleeping bag company do?

Tundra

I won't argue with vegans or strict vegetarians.

Oh, OK. In that case, I'll shut up. ;-)

Get a grip, Dewey. Lynn wasn't talking about boards deciding who gets to live and who must die. Have you ever had a patient dying of pancreatic cancer ask you to kill them, because the disease eating into their bones is causing unbearable pain that even narcotics won't touch and the constant seizures from their brain mets is wiping them out and distressing their family? I have. I can't say I didn't sympathize with him, either. So, I'm not sure that Oregon has it wrong with their Death with Dignity Act. There has yet to be a single incident of abuse of their VOLUNTARY euthanasia law.

I hope you're not going to try to bring up the whole "sanctity of suffering" argument.

And, of course, I'm certain that I would NOT be emotionally capable of being the "physician" in "physician-assisted suicide." I simply don't think I could take such an active part in the death of an innocent human. (And, yes, I know that makes no sense, on several levels.) OTOH I can and have stood by during passive euthanasia. I can't treat someone if they don't want to be treated- that's called "assault and battery."

Wow, this one might get better than the gun arguments!

I do not support factory farmed anything, period.

+1

I have worked in five hospitals and will not take this further as I find your initial comment offensive. I have seen things that I do not consider appropriate to discuss here and will leave it at that.

.

"their VOLUNTARY euthanasia law"

Since this is an issue near and dear to my heart, I'll make a minor correction here. It is not a euthanasia law, it is an assisted dying law. Assisted in that a physician must prescribe the appropriate medication, but the patient MUST self administer. That's the law.

It's a wonderful law, which has recently been replicated in Washington. There have been no abuses. I wish it were replicated across the nation. I should have the right to decide when to end my terminal pain and suffering, no one else should have the right to force me to live because of their religious/moral convictions.

Granted, I could have been more sensitive than "Get a grip, Dewey." Mea culpa. I just think you were making a heck of a leap from Lynn's offhand mention of euthanasia to some variant of Logan's Run.

And if you found my description of a pancreatic patient offensive, well, you need to come to grips with your mortality. Memento mori. Some of us do not die well. (And you should know that, if you work in healthcare.) Pretending that everyone gets to comfortably drift off into a picture-perfect storybook death in bed surrounded by loving family members is not rational or realistic. Given that some people die hopeless and absolutely HORRIBLE deaths, I personally find it hard not to sympathize when they want to die more quickly.

>> It is not a euthanasia law, it is an assisted dying law.

Conceded. Poor phraseology.

"And, of course, I'm certain that I would NOT be emotionally capable of being the "physician" in "physician-assisted suicide." I simply don't think I could take such an active part in the death of an innocent human."

You might be surprised. The only "active" part you take is to prescribe the medication. But many people in the medical field who have attended these deaths come away with an appreciation for the process. Families get to share a wonderful, life-affirming celebration (I know, sounds contrary to what happens, but I'm just telling you what many families say) and get to say their goodbyes in a very positive way.

And this is what so often gets lost in the issue — it's not so much about death as it is about choice, about family, about controlling one's own destiny, and about celebrating a life well lived. It's a very positive atmosphere, believe it or not.

But I don't think the law covers geese (vain attempt to get back on topic ;-)

Before we go tearing into each other of euthanasia lets remember Dewey is in Canada if I recall and the rest of us are in the US (I guess Lynn is in New Zealand). Conditions/rules etc. are going to be different I would guess.