Goose Down, Humane?

Very nicely said, Cary. I'll drink to that, as well.

Secondly, come one Miguel a plant has no brain, no brain stem, no pain receptors, no feelings, emotions, consciousness or WILL to survive.

Well, on this we are just going to have to see things differently. I feel your understanding of this issue is a very "scientific" and modern way of looking at and qualifying life, which of course influences me, too, being that I am a modern human living in a technological society. But beyond this, to me life is life, and qualifying what you do to living things by measuring the amount of pain they feel just begs the question of what exactly defines "life" to you. As to the whole question of "will to survive, well, that certainly is a difficult can of worms to interpret. My stance is, if a plant develops armor or poison or thorns or camouflage to protect itself then there must be something in it that wants to survive, otherwise what is there to protect? Besides, to me the very spark of life is precious in its own right; it is a magical thing. And so rare in the universe. I don't believe that being sentient or able to feel pain or more prolific in what one builds say anything about what the importance of the spark of life is. If those arguments held then the life of a mentally handicapped person ought to be worth less than that of a genius, no? Or a child ought be worth less than an adult, since it contributes so little to its community or habitat.

Personally I believe that humans haven't crossed the next great threshold of maturing in their understanding of life and the universe: that of us not being the "top of the heap" or "separate from animals" or "better than other living things". We still live with this anthropocentric, "man and nature" attitude that equates to our once thinking the Earth was the center of the Universe and that the Sun orbited the Earth (which actually is a western outlook… the Chinese and Indians didn't see the world this way. The Chinese knew the world was round long before Europeans did). We humans are so full of ourselves. Like snot-nosed, bratty, "me-me-me", spoiled little children. We always try to find justifications for what we do and how we think. And yet, can you give me one truly defensible example of how we improved anything on this planet?

As we distance ourselves from death and try to pretend that we cause no harm and deal no death we more and more convince ourselves that the world is only a clean and pretty and endlessly benign place. We want those feathers without paying the price for them, even though they do not belong to us nor do we especially deserve them.

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For me, compassion is the defining motive for my reasoning because nature is so replete with pain and suffering and because we are able to recognize this and have it in our power most times to make choices that will reduce or ease pain or suffering or at least not add to it.

I'll second the drink to that, Cary. I didn't spell it out in my posts, but that is what I meant by saying that we have a choice as to how we conduct ourselves in our lives, our words, and our attitude to the world around us.

We have …improved… quite a number of "things", as "David", "Panis Angelicus", "Ave Maria", "La Pieta", "The Taj Mahal", the poetry of Li Po, Dante, Cervantes and so many others indicates.

You seem a bit "melancholic" and probably should "cheer up" and lift a glass with these other tipplers….great stuff, tho', best thread I have ever seen here.

We have …improved… quite a number of "things", as "David", "Panis Angelicus", "Ave Maria", "La Pieta", "The Taj Mahal", the poetry of Li Po, Dante, Cervantes and so many others indicates.

For US, yes. Only for us. But certainly not for the rest of the planet. These things haven't done a thing for anything not human.

I'm actually very much at peace with and it makes me daily very happy to live with the philosophy of human beings not being that important in the world… while at the same time feeling, as a human being, within the company of my own kind that humankind is beautiful and I have great empathy and compassion for fellow humans. This is how I live my life and I feel is quite a lot less melodramatic and less self-absorbed than many religions today. I don't even worry about or feel it is important to dwell on the question of the afterlife. THIS world is beautiful and full of wonder and is all I need. Whatever comes after, comes when it does.

So, after saying all this, yes, I do feel that down should be collected in as kind and empathetic and compassionate way as possible, while at the same time looking at the business as it is, rather than how we wish it would be.

Thank you, Dewey, for saying I am to harsh on myself but I feel animals pain so intensely sometimes, especially as I have a chronic pain condition and I want no creature to experience pain and suffering.

Miguel your right maybe we will have to disagree but in a sense I do agree with you, all life is beautiful to behold and precious, if I could live without killing anything then I would but since I can't that does not mean I should kill anything I want, whenever I want, however I want.

I think we can all agree that are actions need to be curtailed by morality and I obviously draw a line others would not. The mentally ill child argument has been made before and I am saying not that intelligence dictates a creatures worth but that others factors like the ability to suffer are paramount. Again if I could live without killing I would but in the absence of that reality I will avoid suffering where suffering could exist, and a plant can't suffer. It can die but it can't suffer, it can't wish for pain, which it does not feel, to end, fear what might come next, or in fact be mourned, or missed by others in its clan.
Some more "food" for thought.

I strongly feel that the emotional effect of listening to "Panis Angelicus" HAS a very pronounced "softening" effect on me and "maybe" on other humans; this results in a far less destructive and more compassionate approach to the "non-human" world. I am being sincere, here, and not merely saying this "for argument's sake" and I was in a profession where this could make a difference.

Sooooo, I am not so sure that the "civilized" aspects of human life and I include religion, cannot and sometimes do not have a beneficial effect on animals, etc.

Miguel your right maybe we will have to disagree but in a sense I do agree with you, all life is beautiful to behold and precious, if I could live without killing anything then I would but since I can't that does not mean I should kill anything I want, whenever I want, however I want.

I think some people are misinterpreting me, and that is due mainly to my expressing myself clumsily. Sorry about that.

Michael, I in no way ever meant to imply that wanton killing or any kind of needless killing is justified. Quite the opposite. I was trying to express the discomfort and contradiction of life and how that presents a paradox for us as people who want to be compassionate while at the same time both surviving and getting those things we want to possess. And when I brought up the question of our being animals I wanted to express the hypocrisy of wanting to retain the benefits of being animals while at the same time denying that we are animals so we can justify to ourselves that what and how we do things have no moral consequences.

Like Cary I believe compassion is the one thing that defines our humanity (though more and more field research is showing that other animals are also compassionate and altruistic).

I agree with you completely, Michael, on the idea that we shouldn't kill anything any time any way we want. But I do think it is more honest and more realistic to simply see and accept the death that we cause when we want to eat, to animals and plants, is an inevitable and natural part of living. I think being aware of it and accepting it while at the same time seeing that we are taking from another living thing makes us more responsible towards the world around us and about our own place. It also makes us value our own lives as gifts rather than inevitable facts; we live because other living things have given their lives for ours. It is a humble approach to living.

I wouldn't for a single moment presume to know the first thing about how and in what way plants experience the world. We know so little about our own experience, less about a fellow human's point of view, so how in the world can any of us think we understand what it means to be a plant. We just don't know.

Dave T said:
"as a side note, if your "religion" (e.g. man-made-up belief system) grants you "dominion" over non-human animals, that's a great deal for you!"

I provided a link to a article I think many Christians and Jewish people or really anyone will find interesting. I find it very relevant to this discussion.

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/2163

I am actually Agnostic but I learn alot from the bible as well as from intelligent religous people. I ask that everyone be respectful of others religion and beliefs.

Joseph

It's A Cruel World

IMO, Joseph Campbell said it well…

killing is the precondition of all living whatsoever:

life lives on life, eats life, and would not otherwise exist.

Also said…

a vegetarian is one who only kills those who cannot run away

I'm poor, so I had some factory-farmed bacon and eggs, that were bought at Wal-Mart, for breakfast. I won't be losing any sleep over it, but I have lost sleep in a freezing-cold underrated down sleeping bag, because I couldn't afford a better one!

Earlier this week, I was directly told that I had too many issues; maybe I'm not so bad after all. I also live in a rural area of the Bible belt, so I'm repeatedly condemned to eternal hellfire for my non-Christian beliefs. Oh well.

Very few backpack in my area, so sometimes I'm lacking for companionship while partaking my hobby; they don't understand why anyone would want to walk around in the woods for no reason, but they do understand trophy taxidermy mounts and if I told them somebody thinks they belong in jail for all the deer heads and fish on their wall, well…. If I wasn't so poor, that I have few other options but backpacking for outdoor sport, I might just take up deer hunting and enter a big buck contest, or buy a 300hp, 80 mph bass boat and get into competitive bass fishing. Guess I'll stick with walking around in the woods though.

Now, who wants to clean their bloody hands of their quilt made from the down of those poor tortured geese? Talk's cheap, let's see some action!

The most ridiculous thread I have ever read.

Even back in the 70's when I was a veg I still had a down sleeping bag.

Even plastics and synthetics are made from oil and god knows how many people have died because of that not to mention the multi billions of ancient animal life forms that died that created that soup.

Matter of fact we all kill every day, indirectly, even if we are strict vegitarians. If our ancient ancestors had been strict vegitarians we never would have left the trees.

I'm pretty excited that, for my very first post, I get to reference Arthur Schopenhauer. I very much agree with his musings on what has been mentioned here as a "will to life," and concur that to kill any flora is equated to killing fauna, in the whole "circle of life" kinda way.

If anyone here might be unfamilliar with his works, and wishes to learn, and can forgive him for the occasional sexism/racism (19th century germany, after all), here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schopenhauer

…and +1 for eider down (speaking of which, can Nunatak still get their hands on…)

“Tundra sounds like a great company that just might solve this debate for me, but their are no weights listed for their bags on their website or their dealers websites and no contact info for me to get a list of avg. bag weights.”

I found a UK dealer that provides weights for a few of the bags: outdoorgp.com. Thanks for the original link, Anna. Tundra looks like a great option for those of us who are searching for ethically sourced down bags.

Thanks for that link, Joseph. I enjoyed reading the article. Some of the best writing that I’ve see on animal welfare has come from a conservative Christian, Matthew Scully. His book, Dominion is a powerful and eloquent indictment of how we as a society treat our fellow creatures.

Thanks for digging that up, Ernie. My next bag may well be a Tundra.

Something I don't understand about Tundra's fill, so please help me out. Some of their bags say 95% ethical down. What's the other 5%? Unethical down? If so, what's the point?

If I ever get to the point where I'm doing things 95% ethically, I'd say I'm doing pretty good.

George, certainly, all life lives on other life and violence is certainly a part of life. Some choose to minimize the cruelty involved in sustaining their lives while others do not. It's purely a personal choice.

Like you, I spend a lot of time watching geese. There's a park a couple blocks away from my house where I like to unwind after work by watching the waterfowl. There's no doubt that geese can be mean to each other, as you noted in your earlier post. Now, imagine all these geese confined to a factory "farm." That's a level of cruelty I want no part of.
Anyway, here's a photo of some of "my" Canada Geese swimming in the lake, taken a couple of days ago. Hope you like it.

@Dondo

Beautiful pic. Appreciate it.

In December '06 while visiting my son when he lived in CO, I saw a whole lot of wild geese flying over.

Interesting how those that really migrate seem different than those that stay year round.

Wild Geese
By Mary Oliver

You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
for a hundred miles through the desert, repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine.
Meanwhile the world goes on.
Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain
are moving across the landscapes,
over the prairies and the deep trees,
the mountains and the rivers.
Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air,
are heading home again.
Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
the world offers itself to your imagination,
calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting–
over and over announcing your place
in the family of things.

The most ridiculous thread I have ever read.

Then why read it and then take the time to comment on it? For some of us it is a serious and worthy topic and that's why we are participating. Not an easy topic to write about, granted.

@George,

Ah, Mary Oliver, one of my all-time favorite poets!

Just clarifying that everyone does understand there are different breeds and species of geese? Some domesticated, like a White Embden of Europe, some wild, like the Canadian Goose. To me, this would be like comparing the killing of a wild junglefowl of SE Asia to the killing of domesticated commercial Cornish meat bird raised in a Tyson chicken house. If you really believe that animals have souls, you might also think that a domesticated animal knows it's lot in life after generations of breeding for a specific purpose. So animal treatment ethics could be different depending on the breed or species.

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