Managing wet feet

[Lynn Tramper]

That'a ll very academically interesting, but from a practical point of view us educated UL hikers are not likely to leave our feet wet overnight, so I still say "don't worry about keeping your feet dry *while *walking*. But always have dry foot wear to put on at the end of the day. From a purely practical point of view, there is almost nowhere I can go hiking around here where I could conceivably keep my feet dry!

[Roger Caffin]

> we’ll have to wait a while for Roger’s response. He is incommunicado for the next month and a half…
Starting in the middle of this week. Switzerland.

> Wrenn, Immersion Foot:
> “The taxonomy of this disorder is confusing… [etc.]"
Seems like a good article, this one.

> “The pathologic hallmark of immersion foot is waterlogging of the thick
> stratum corneum of the soles of the feet. Natural creases are exaggerated and new
> creases are produced causing wrinkling.
That does tie in with our experience. The upper part of our feet showed no problems at all under a normal walking regime over 3 months. But the soles did thicken slowly over the 6+ weeks of wet. But they managed to stay soft and flexible as long as they were wet during the day. (Repeat: dry feet at night!) Once the weather cleared and we had dry feet for several days the thick sole layer start to peel off.
Frankly, I saw this thick layer which had built up on our feet as a natural response of the body to the difficult conditions. The thick dead layer just got a bit thicker, to protect our soles. Once conditions changed the excess was no longer needed, and was discarded.
However, to repeat (again): we had no foot problems while wet, and when the excess dead skin did peel off the soles we had healthy feet underneath.

> “Biopsy specimens of the skin of affected individuals have shown swelling, thickening,
> and fragmentation of the stratum corneum with variable edema of the upper dermis.
Pretty much the case except I do not remember any effects on the upper part of the foot. Certainly, we had no inflammation.

> I agree that a day (~12 hours) of hiking in warm wet socks isn't likely to hurt
> anybody who isn't somehow predisposed to injury. … These both assume that you dry
> your feet after the hike, before getting them wet again.
I agree with this. And doing this day after day for 6 weeks didn't not make the situation any worse for us.

> Make your own call about what is 'warm' and what is 'cold.' I've found nothing
> but massively conflicting data on that one.
I tentatively suggest that what this means is that temperature (provided your feet are not COLD) is not the determining factor here: other uncontrolled factors matter more. (Type of footwear maybe?) But this is a hypothesis, to be tested (more marines?).

Not mentioned so far is any testing of the difference between 'sealed systems' and 'flushed systems": waterproof boots vs open mesh joggers. I *think* that this factor matters, but I have no proof.

All very interesting, and I thank all (especially Dean) who have contributed. But now I am off packing … :-)

Cheers

[Tony Beasley]

Hi Dean,

Thanks for doing all of that research I have found it interesting reading.

As a backcountry fly fisher I spend many a summer day with wet feet, I also have sweaty feet and in my day job I wear heavy safety boots and if not careful I suffer from a few foot skin problems the most annoying is very itchy feet, which is compounded when I have wet feet all day from fishing/walking. Over the past few years with some success I have been working on how to stop the itchy feet problem.

What I do is the same as many other people and that at the end of the day I remove wet socks and boots, dry feet thoroughly, put on dry socks and wear camp sandals. When my feet are completely dry, usually just before crawling into my sleeping bag I apply an antifungal cream all over my feet.

Last fishing season I had no problems with itchy feet.

Tony

[Lynn Tramper]

"Not mentioned so far is any testing of the difference between 'sealed systems' and 'flushed systems": waterproof boots vs open mesh joggers. I *think* that this factor matters, but I have no proof."

After decades of hiking in water-logged boots, I would propose that this is not a big problem either. But maybe that's becasue the boots get constantly *re-water-logged* on a regular basis :0 Could be that coonstant river crossings and rainfall act to flush out even the most non free draining shoes?? Standing around in a trench may be a another kettle of fish!

[Dean F.]

>> However, to repeat (again): we had no foot problems while wet, and when the excess dead skin did peel off the soles we had healthy feet underneath.

And to repeat (again): that's not what I'm arguing about. I have repeatedly said that this is not what I'm arguing about, and that I also tolerate having my feet wet all day and drying them at night. The issue isn't intermittent exposure such as this- it is continuous exposure. So At SOME POINT water expure will destroy your feet, and you cannot make the claim that it is harmless.
Am I making sense, or not? Perhaps my glossolalia is firing up, again…
What I disagreed with was the absurd statement that water is harmless to feet because skin is only 'dead' cells. Are you saying that water is harmless? Because I've just backed up my contention that it is not, so if you say otherwise I'm waiting to see the data, Roger. :o)

But, anyway, we actually seem to agree on all important points, even if I can't convince you to come out and formally state that, yes, perhaps water isn't 'harmless' to feet. :o)

>> Not mentioned so far is any testing of the difference between 'sealed systems' and 'flushed systems": waterproof boots vs open mesh joggers. I *think* that this factor matters, but I have no proof.

I'm not so sure, for two reasons:
1) The operative factor here seems to be water absorbtion by the stratum corneum. It does not make conceptual sense to me that flowing water somehow doesn't absorb as well as water that is sitting still. I'm just not buying it.
2) Several of the Vietnam-era articles were studies on men slogging around in swamps in jungle boots- which were noted to have wire mesh vents to allow water to flow in and out. (I own a pair.) So some of these studies did, to some small degree, not suffer from the use of 'waterproof' boots.

But, this is utter speculation. I'm not sure I could ever 'prove' otherwise.

And, I will certainly agree with something that Roger and Lynn seem to be implying- that walking around in a swamp with your feet fully immersed for days is categorically different that making the occasional stream crossing and them walking a bit in damp socks.

I have to run to clinic. Later.

[Lynn Tramper]

Yeah, I'm not totally covinced that *free-draining* is that important either. Heavy, waxed leather boots used to be the norm, and a lot of forestry workers around here used to just wear plain old gumboots all day long (though the older wiser ones did tend to drill holes around the bottoms to let the water out).

RE: toughening up feet, the old method was to rub alcohol into them starting a week to ten days in advance of a trip. Totally anecdotal, but practiced by many generations of walkers…I discovered my feet didn't need toughening up, they just needed looser fitting footware to prevent blisters.

[Mike Clelland]

I've used Neoprene socks in wet soggy weather – and snow. They are simple, easy to purchase and warm. As long as you are moving and active, my feet are fine. as soon as I stop, my feet get chilly (no surprize here).

I've used them on the WT# course in snowy october at 12,ooo feet with GoLite hiking sneakers. Worked great.

See the photo from Jang-Tian Shieh up above this message.

[Brad Groves]

Dean, just wanted to say thanks for your time and articles! Good stuff.

I've started carrying foot powder for the end of the day, makes me happy.

[Thomas]

There could be other factors to consider:

1. Humidity at night — affects whether one’s socks or feet ever truly dry out, and affects whether one’s mesh trail shoes dry out while walking.  Or for that matter, the humidity during the day.
2. Temperature at night — colder weather means slower drying (unless the humidity is really low?)
3. Washing one’s feet — removing bacteria and fungus before the stink factor builds up
4. Washing one’s socks — I suspect that washing socks not only cleans out bacteria, but also washes out the salt from perspiration. This would probably help the socks to dry out, since salt is hydrophilic.
5. Type of socks worn — thick wool socks also absorb water and they take longer to dry out (depends upon humidity and temperature of your locale) // while synth liner socks dry faster than wool socks
6. Natural variations among different bodies — the YMMV factor — I noted in one of Dean’s threads that a certain percentage of Vietnam soldiers suffered debilitating foot problems, let’s say 30% . This means that, anecdotally, 70% would say that it is OK to walk around in jungle water and warm boots without problems, whereas 30% of them would say that walking in jungle wetness for such a length of time etc, would definitely generate foot problems. If one were to plot a graph of this over time, however, one would see an increasing number of soldiers moving from the subclinical to the clinical condition.
7. Science tries to make universal statements, and this goes to Dean’s point about Science and statistics. Science would say that under this and that condition, for this amount of time, then one could expect that X % of the battalion of soldiers would develop debilitating foot problems. It’s just like what I read about Giardia — apparently 30% of people are asymptomatic regarding Giardia, and these hikers would gloat, anecdotally, that they walked the entire AT drinking water straight from the sources and never got sick.

I hike in the Pacific Northwest forests and after a night’s rain, all the plants and shrubbery along the trail is drippy wet. After walking along the trail for 5 minutes, my mesh trail shoes and wool socks were soaked, and they did not dry out overnight.  I think I’ll switch to polyester liner socks and Rocky Gtx over socks, at least during wet conditions, and under dry conditions I’ll wear the Darn Tough wool socks. My Rocky Gtx socks plus Darn Tough wool socks make my shoes too tight of a fit.

[Roger Caffin]

Washing one’s feet — removing bacteria and fungus before the stink factor builds up
Yeah, reckon that is good. Many trips we have managed to wash our feet every night, and we think it helps. Clean dry fluffy socks in bed at night.

Washing one’s socks — I suspect that washing socks not only cleans out bacteria, but also washes out the salt from perspiration.
Dunno about the bacteria – I suspect they will stick around, but washing does get the dirt, sand and gravel out, and that really is good. That stuff will give you blisters. We would wash them every one or two nights as well.

Does that mean we sometimes start the day with damp socks and shoes? Yep, very often. If the walking is dry, the socks dry out pretty fast. No problem. If there are more rivers, well, wet feet again. No problem.

The only times we have had any problems was wearing GTX-lined shoes. Our feet went totally ‘prune’ and that was infinitely worse than ‘sometimes wet’. One exception: I have worn GTX shoes when on snowshoes, but that was more to keep the snow OUT.

As for socks: thick(!) Darn Tough wool socks every time. Never (ever) cotton socks, and never thin synthetic socks either – except as liner socks inside the wool socks.

Cheers

[jscott]

I get blisters if my feet are wet. Period. I hate blisters. Ergo…

and no amount of theory proves otherwise in the field. I’m glad for all those whod do not get blisters with wet feet.

I rarely get blisters. Despite repeated stream crossings. Magic!****

p.s. the very good book called Fix Your Feet details strategies for all kinds of sports scenarios regarding feet and their issues. Blisters are a big topic. The book interviews a lot of marathon runners and others. One take away is: no one strategy works for all people. Different people give entirely contradictory advice for preventing blisters.

You have to let your own experience and anatomy be your guide.

 

***Goretex, uberlight gaiters, boots off during deep stream crossing. I can almost hear teeth grinding in the distance

[Roger Caffin]

Blisters …
In my experience, a major cause of blisters is ill-fitting shoes.

The most common cause of this (especially for blisters around the front of the foot and underneath) is shoes that are too narrow. Most mfrs only make one width, which is about D on the Bannock scale, and they rarely even tell you the width. This is too narrow for people who do a lot of walking as their feet have responded to the increased load by growing (despite claims that feet can’t grow). Why do they make just D? Because they can’t afford to make a range of widths, and D is the most common size for fashion and street wear.

What about the running shoe brands? The same applies of course. Runners don’t complain because they only have their running shoes on for a relatively brief period. Their legs ache more than their feet.

Blisters at the heel and at the tips of the toes are usually due to the shoes being too small. There are two reasons why this happens. The first is that your feet will swell after a couple of hours of walking: the muscles in your feet pump up, just like a body builder. If there is no room for that: problems. In general you need to buy walking/trail shoes at least half a size bigger than what you measure as, to allow for this growth. That may feel sloppy in the shop, but wait till afternoon on the first day of a walk.

The second reason is sad. Many women (very much more so than men) buy shoes that are too small because they don’t want ‘big feet’. It’s purely a fashion thing. Big bust – sure; big feet – no way! Experienced shoe store staff will rarely mention this to a customer as it might scare female customers away: who wants to be told they are buying the wrong size? It might also cut down the number of pairs they sell, as women keep buying in the hope of finding a shoe that is comfortable. Proof of this outrageous sexist claim may be found in any Women’s magazine: they are full of ads for foot massage, foot baths, special inner soles for massaging, etc; you never find any of that in a Mens’s magazine. Men don’t look at their feet you see.

Cheers

[jscott]

Roger: everything you say about fit is true, in my experience. I take all of it into account, and more, when choosing my shoe/boot model and size.

I’m agnostic about the whole female psychology thing.

 

[Thomas]

Wow — a 10 year old thread so quickly resurrected — amazing.  Thanks for responses.

I wear Altras which fit wider feet like mine — a life saver these.  Usually I get the 10.5 size, I’m thinking of going up to size 11 as you suggest Roger, so as to fit Rocky Gtx socks + Darn Tough socks.

 

 

[Roger Caffin]

I have been known to go to a half size up so I can fit two pairs of Darn Toughs for snow-shoeing.

I’m agnostic about the whole female psychology thing.
Coward! :)

Cheers

[jscott]

“Coward! :)”

well…I don’t want to wade into all that and risk getting blistered.

[Roger Caffin]

I retire, defeeted.

Cheers

[James Marco]

Most of the time, you can tolerate wet feet just fine. Your feet are usually in a warm, damp, environment, anyway. Most of us wear shoes & socks for more than 1/2 of our lives, and, insensible sweat will guarantee your feet are in a humid, damp environment…even in winter. Trench foot and other problems can be serious, but are not likely to crop up for two or three days, minimally.

Too thin socks can be worse for making blisters. Too thick socks can make your feet sweat more. Water from the outside can often soak into your socks and feet simply walking through scrub in the morning. A stream crossing or heavy rain, will do this too. Well, you get wet feet…

Some people are sensitive to the amount of ammonia resulting from damp feet. This will show up as small micro-blisters on the tops of your feet, itching, etc. It sort of feels like an allergy. Normally urine (released from your sweat glands) breaks down in several hours of hiking and releases ammonia. The solution here is to change your socks out a lot. And, rinse them out at every stream crossing. I think of it as hiking with “bleach” on your feet, though that is just my way of thinking about it.

I simply hike (sometimes in the rain for most of a week) and am fine. Just make sure you can sleep dry with clean, dry socks at night. You should be fine.

[Mark Fowler]

It really boils down to having a maintenance program for your feet. For me I like a long lunch break so it is off with the shoes and socks and spread to dry in the sun then dry my feet.  If the socks are feeling a bit coarse then they get rinsed.  I also find it useful to remove the inners and clean out small holes which a great for hiding little sand grains which later emerge to rub.  At camp I repeat the lunchtime treatment plus dry socks for the night. This routine has kept my feet happy for around 50 days out.

Others have commented on socks, but socks are a very individual thing.  For me I wear quite thin socks and have my shoes loosely laced unless in difficult terrain without problems but my feet run hot.

[Sam Farrington]

Since this thread has been resurrected, here’s two more cents:

It seems that most prefer to wear water soluble foot gear, because of constant immersion, and failure of GTX to adequately ventilate the feet.  OK, agree if that is the case, that approach makes sense, with appropriate precautions, along with footwear that drains well..

But constant immersion is not always the case.  I hike mostly in Northern New England and mountains in northern Colorado.  In both areas, constant immersion is not the case, although constant rain can last many more days in the East than the West.  Usually though, thanks to trail maintainers,  constant immersion is not a problem.  Also, some of the manufacturers use WPB linings that are much better than GTX.  Keens have worked much better for me; but I perspire much less than others, especially at the feet.  So wear low mids with proprietary WPB liners and Polyester socks (Lorpen) that dry much faster than wool, and shorty WPB gaiters in heavy rain (and loose shale as well)..

This is the choice, because the feet have been ravaged by years of backpacking, and need very well fitting footwear to negotiate rocky terrain (piles of rocks underfoot that can go on for miles) that is encountered.  Inordinate time has been spent to find and fit mids that fit well, and so provide good footing.  Otherwise, when the mids get wet and sloshy, the fit is lost, and trekking becomes precarious.  That’s the primary reason I like dry feet, not fear of fungi etc.

Things were different doing a series of hike/kayak trips that covered the AT from NH to Katahdin – usually 7-10 days on the water, and the same for the hikes back on the AT.  The portages on the water were more reminiscent of Roger’s walks in creek beds, so wore just sneakers, and in the cold wore bread wrappers over the poly socks to keep from freezing.  Both the Colorado mountains (at high altitude), and northern NE even at low elevations, can get cold even in the late summer, and freezing in the spring and fall.  New problems arose on the kayak portions, like prune feet that led to severe blistering when beginning the hiking portions.  Two day stopovers after the kayak portions and before beginning the hiking became the rule.

So conditions and locales can determine whether hiking is with dry feet, and wanted to note the main reason for this choice.  It makes for trekking that is both safer and more enjoyable.  BTW, the mids rode in the drybag with the pack in the rear of kayak.  While trekking, the kayak was stashed with the sneakers, and portaging wheels; sometimes in the woods, but with the permission of a property owner whenever possible.

And thanks again to the trail maintainers.  There is a mile or so section in Colorado’s Never Summer trail, that parallels the peaks along the western boundary of RMNP, and that was inundated almost a decade ago by a huge boulder fall that came crashing down from the top of the peak east of the trail.   The boulders were not negotiable for my Shelties, requiring much bushwhacking and a two day detour.   Mentioned this to a Forest Service guy, and when we went back in a year or so, the boulders had been moved and reshaped into about a mile of new treadway.  Must have taken a team many days or weeks of work.  Kudos to Volunteers for Outdoor Colorado, the Maine AT Club, the Cohos Trail Assoc., and all the maintainers who make trekking such a rewarding experience.

[Roger Caffin]

It seems that most prefer to wear water soluble foot gear, 

Ah, Sam, I think you meant ‘water-permeable’? Soluble footwear might not last very long in the water, after all. :)

Cheers

[James Marco]

Sam, yeah, I wear mids for most of my hiking…usually Timberland Chocorua. My feet stay dry, usually even through stream crossings. The scree collar works very well at keeping water out unless they are totally immersed for full minute or longer. Corse, I only put 500-600 miles on them each year. (They also protect my ankles from stones, sticks, boulders.) I never use gators. I also use them around the shop, they saves a lot of bangs/scrapes…I use Merrell Barefoot runners for canoeing/paddling.

I have tried 5-6 sets of trail runners/shoes. I use them for canoe trips mostly. Every two or three years, I try them hiking just to make sure they don’t work…again. My ankles usually come back banged up from blowdowns, rocks, and sticks in the side-trail litter. Kind’a like a few food items that I really intensely dislike, but try them every now and then, anyway. (More as a reminder of what I LIKE to eat.)

Unfortunately, NY’s ADK Trails are many (2000-4000mi, generally…depending on what you consider a trail. Other than Alaska, it has an area larger than the next five national parks together. This means the state DEC simply doesn’t have the time, nor manpower to maintain pristine trails. The people who I have hiked with from out of state all say the trails in the ADK’s are among the worst they have hiked on. Pensylvania, Vermont, Maine and New Hampshire, all have wider, clearer trails…I have to agree with them. The AT is a sidewalk running through some woods.

I agree, Sam. Mostly I much prefer dry feet, well, as dry as feet get, anyway. But, wet feet are fine for a few days.

 

[Sam Farrington]

Hi Roger,
It was a joke, recalling how footwear has disintegrated after many rough miles of being ‘rode wet and hung out to dry.’

Hi James,
Thought I was a minority of one. Thanks.

On a cheerier note – Here is a photo of the Shelties at Red Dog Pass on the northern portion of the Never Summer Trail. Sara is on a leash because she is half blind, skittish, and we saw some mountain goats playing right here on the way up:

[Thomas]

On my last backpacking trip, I had wet feet the whole time, except overnight, during which I slept with thin nylon socks and my feet dried out well enough. But then in the morning, I had to put on my wet hiking socks … they hardly dried out at all owing to the humidity and cool temps. Alas, I forgot to bring a second pair to wear on.

I like your idea, Mark, of a long lunch break, with shoes off. I actually did this once on my last trip, and even took a brief nap. I was sleepy because of the night’s rain tapping on the tent. The Douglas Fir trees towering above me have a habit of collecting drizzle and consolidating them into big fat rain drops which made alarming sounds, in stereo mode, as they hit the tent a few inches above my head. Forgot to bring earplugs.  It sounded like being inside an enormous popcorn-making cauldron, not that I’ve ever actually experienced that.

I already have nail fungus on my big left toe and a little toe, which naturally I like to blame on the weather. So I think having wet feet all day cannot be much of a help. BTW, does anyone know how to eradicate nail fungus? Mine has lasted a couple years already.

Well, I see that more experimentation awaits me. I need to develop, as Mark put it, a comprehensive “maintenance program for the feet”. Poly socks vs wool vs Rocky Gtx with Darn Tough Socks or with poly liners. With or without Foot Glide. Wearing mesh vs mid shoes with eVent liner. Ahh, the pleasures of backpacking, trying to figure these things out. I will definitely be washing my feet and socks as a daily routine, and alternating socks.

Say, I was wondering …  “If your feet are cold, then wear a warm hat”, so … therefore … by the Law of Correspondences … if your feet are wet, then, wear a rain hat??

[David Hartley]

I really think this is one of those things that hikers need to figure out for themselves.

For years I hiked with Montrail’s Comp XCR – the XCR referring to their Goretex-XCR membrane.  They worked great, generally did not get wet inside – as long as I took them off for creek fording, and fit my feet well – but – I would sprain my ankle at some point on every trip, and was susceptible to blisters. After Montrail was purchased by Columbia they discontinued that shoe so I tried the Merrel Moab Goretex WP mids – even with the goretex lining I invariably got wet and they stayed wet, and I got blisters, and they shrunk! and I still was susceptible to rolling my ankle.

I finally jumped on the trail-runner bandwagon with the Montrail Hardrocks, and then when they discontinued those too – for the last 5-6 years I’ve used the La Sportiva Ultra Raptors (at a full size above my normal size).  Once I switched to the trail runners (with thin merino wool socks with no padding) – yes my feet were wet virtually every day – but I never rolled my ankle again, and no more blisters. I really believe that the lighter/closer to the ground trail-runners allow my brain to figure out my foot is rolling in time for me to react and prevent it – whereas with the older heavy mids by the time I became aware of my ankle rolling it was too late.

I just bring 3-4 pairs of socks on my trips. If I am solo I ford creeks without bothering to remove my shoes – although I will say that ultra-raptors don’t drain that well.  But I often hike with my brother, and he still hikes with waterproof mids, so he stops for a change to crocs at every ford – so I do too if I am hiking with him.  I don’t try to change his mind – he knows what works for him.  I frequently hike in the ADKs – and yes the trails are bad or poorly maintained. My feet are usually wet and muddy, but I don’t roll my ankles or get blisters.

All is not perfect – my feet are getting bigger (or wider) as I get older and the ultra-raptors don’t fit quite as well as they used to.  I am trying the next 1/2 size up but I am not sure. I am not looking forward to figuring out another shoe solution – I am not enamored with some of the newer zero-drop options.

But back to my original point – shoe choices – trail-runners or water-proof mids, etc. – are very personal and I would not pretend to know what should work best for others – especially if they have hiked enough to figure that out for themselves. I have tried both WP shoes and non-WP shoes, and the non-WP works better for me for 3-season hiking – I do prefer WP in the winter.

I don’t think there is any short cut – trial and error is the only way to figure out what works for you.

[Author]

Posts