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Ryan Jordan’s SUL Winter Challenge
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KD writes:
>> The next step in the development of the Wind Pro is to convert it to use Powermax canisters ( ya gotta love those lighter weight Powermax’s–2.2 -2.8 oz. empty compared to say the MSR cartridge empty weights of 4- 4.65 oz.).
Kevin. Have you read my stuff?
Xtreme vs Windpro
Powermax Windpro
.xls Fuel Weight Comparison
HTML Fuel Weight Comparison
The large powermax empty can weighs 3.5oz and the small one weighs 2.8oz. Your weights may be valid if they are filled with helium. :-)
I’ve weighed regular empty canisters at 3.2, 5.3, and 6.9oz for 110g, 220g, and 450g canisters respectively.
IMO, converting the windpro to powermax operation is not worth the weight — except maybe if Bill F. wants to mass produce his beautiful milled/polished mag housings. The windpro itself has tremendous opportunity for weight reduction as Ryan F. has shown. Using some Ti legs could easily get the Windpro weight down to 5.2oz or so.
Cheers,
-Mike
Hi Guys-
This is sheer speculation, but it occured to me that the different fuel consumptions measured by Roger and Ryan may differ due to water use, rather than fuel use.
Ryan’s figures assume producing all his water from snow, and avoiding “cameling up” with 3+L at the traihead. He also boils his water to prevent freezing, and to augment the warmth of his sleep system.
Roger seems to rely partially on finding liquid water, cameling up, and perhaps merely melting rather than boiling the water. (I’m not sure about that last one. Roger, I’d welcome any comments you might have.)
I suspect that the fuel efficiency per liter melted and/or boiled is similar for both Ryan and Roger. They just have different water usage routines. So, do we want Ryan to use his normal routine, or do we want him to try a scheme more similar to Roger’s?
Also, Roger has mentioned increased efficieny with reduced stove heat output. I’ve observed this as well and usually operate my stoves at reduced output. But, if Ryan really is going to melt/boil all his water, then time becomes a factor at the expense of fuel efficiency. The power output (directly related to fuel consumption rate as Roger mentioned) of the stove then becomes relevant — hence Ryan’s preference for not using the very efficient but slow Jetboil.
Cheers,
-Mike
Michael, in regards to the Powermax weights ( which I have not personally weighed) I used empty ( and full) cartridge weights that came from both Zenstove.com as well as ( I think) a Roger Caffin review on the BGT site. So, what can I say? I believe you—changed specs?, production variability?
As to the Caffin/Jordan discrepency– I can add that one doesn’t have to throttle back all the way to realize fuel savings nor does one have to run full throttle to realize time savings.
I wish that tests could be run to find the optimum balance to these stoves.
All in all, you are probably right in your surmise on different water usage regimes. Yes, in the interest of weight saving we should ask RJ to modify his routine to something like Caffin’s.
I read your posts re. the Wind Pro w/ great interest. The only thing that doesn’t seem to have been done is to use the Powermax cartridge and fuel line mated to the Wind Pro. I know you seem dubious–still.
A Wind Pro weight reduction programme does seem easier for more people w/ lesser skills than Bill F. to perform than on the Xtreme. RF certainly made a good start.
Thanks for the note, Kevin.
>> one doesn’t have to throttle back all the way to realize fuel savings nor does one have to run full throttle to realize time savings.
Sure, I didn’t mean to suggest that a simmer was optimum.
>> I wish that tests could be run to find the optimum balance to these stoves.
The optimum throttle setting would depend on (at least!) pot and windscreen configurations, burner geometry, ambient temp, and wind. Slower is not necessarily better as the pot loses more heat to the environment during a longer heating time.
>> The only thing that doesn’t seem to have been done is to use the Powermax cartridge and fuel line mated to the Wind Pro.
The windpro should operate identically with a powermax or inverted standard canister. Only the weight of the components is at issue.
>> in the interest of weight saving we should ask RJ to modify his routine to something like Caffin’s.
This may not result in a net weight savings. Roger may use a heavier sleep system if not relying on a hot water bottle. He may also use some kind of insulation (not on the SUL list) to keep his water from freezing. Also, the weight penalty for cameling up at the trailhead would certainly exceed the extra fuel used with Ryan’s methods. Finally, we would need to ask Ryan about the availability of liquid water on his route.
>>The optimum throttle setting would depend on (at least!) pot and windscreen configurations, burner geometry, ambient temp, and wind.
Nothing an Engineer couldn’t handle. ;-)>
Weight savings would only be reflected in Base Weight and Pre-consumables SKO weight.
Want to make a stove proposal?
p.s. Your fuel comparison link gives me a file I cannot open. Could you post it?
>> Your fuel comparison link gives me a file I cannot open. Could you post it?
Sorry, try this html version.
If fuel quantities need to be larger to keep Ryan alive–
An unmodified Xtreme w/ a 300g Powermax cartridge would weigh 25.1 oz. ( 11 oz. stove + 14.1 full powermax cartridge) and provide 14K BTU per canister. The smaller 170 g cartridge provides
almost 8K BTU total.
An unmodified Wind Pro w/ a 220 ( 8 oz. fuel) MSR cartridge would weigh 19.425 oz. and provide 10.3K BTU per canister.
The Wind Pro also looks good in the base weight figures which don’t reflect the total weight of the system ( 10.8 oz vs. 14.5–stove + empty canister).
BTU figures courtesy of Michael Martin
KD writes:
>> windpro sucks… [well, ok, I paraphrased a little.] ;-)
I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
My numbers show that a stock windpro system would weigh less than 20oz with a 220g (Giga) Cartridge. I haven’t weighed an empty MSR 220g Can, but by my calculations it would have to weigh an inconceivable 10.8oz to reach your 25.45oz figure.
What am I missing?
Cheers,
-Mike
Michael, a Full MSR 220 cartridge I have in my hand weighs 12.625 oz. plus the stock weight of the Stove -6.8 oz. = 19.425 oz. my mistake and corrected on the post above ( don’t even ask). This changes things of course and means comparing apples and oranges because the fuel canister weights and fuel amounts are so dissimilar.
I think what it all means is that the Xtreme would win at certain consumption levels/ trips of a certain length and the MSR at others, particularly shorter trips.
I do like the Windpro, Michael— perhaps the ideal version , besides being stripped to the bone, would be the capability to convert between the Lindahl valve cartridges and the Powermax so I could dial in just the right fuel requirements. Well, one can wish.
To wrap this sucker up
So, I guess that means we don’t disagree, after all.
I think the 220 cartridge will (barely) meet Ryan’s needs ( in the style to which he is accustomed) and that means the Wind Pro–stock or modified w/ canister inverted, is the best bet for the Winter Challenge. How’s that for a quick 180? Slicker than I could pull off on the slopes.
The End.
> occured to me that the different fuel consumptions measured by Roger and Ryan may differ due to water use, rather than fuel use.
Very possible. Ryan mentioned melting a certain amount of water per day. The amount is more than I ever use per day. But I should add, I seem to use less water than many Australians. I do NOT use a ‘hydration system’ to drink on the run. I learnt walking back in the days when you drank at breakfast, lunch and dinner, and not in between. Curiously, it never did us any harm, and i come back from trips about the same weight I went. OK, Ryans J’s needs may differ.
> Ryan’s figures assume producing all his water from snow, and avoiding “cameling up” with 3+L at the traihead.
I would normally set off with one or two 1.25 Litre PET rocket bottles of water. But that is for myself and my wife. In this case, I might take 2 bottles with me at the start.
> He also boils his water to prevent freezing, and to augment the warmth of his sleep system.
No, I do not do this. I get the water to about body temp and leave it at that. If I want to put some in the SB overnight, that is an OK temp as long as it is insulated from the snow. It does not drain heat from me if it is at the same temp.
> Roger seems to rely partially on finding liquid water,
True, and really worth while. Can Ryan J do this where he is going? I don’t know.
> cameling up,
Not really: I just drink less. I don’t mind a slightly dry mouth – it never hurt anyone. Teaches you to keep your mouth shut too! The Bedouin do this in the desert.
> and perhaps merely melting rather than boiling the water.
I can’t see any need to boil water from snow????
Some else asked about sleep systems. I assume this is a fancy name (you Americans!) for a sleeping bag and a mat? I use 700 g 700 loft SB as a quilt, but I have to admit I also use a Therm-a-Rest Deluxe airmat under it. At 60 years of age, I reckon I am entitled to it!
I wear thermals if it is cold, or light silk pyjamas or a silk liner anyhow. The SB has a hood – I would NOT buy one without a hood!, and this goes over my head when I am sleeping. A warm head makes for warm toes. All those ads for extra down at the feet are marketing crap. These days I sometimes take a light 200 polarfleece ski hat to bed when it’s really cold too, and maybe a dry pair of socks to pad my toes off the deck.
The coldest night I have used this gear at was -17 C (1.4 F), but I only had the thermals on – no extra clothing. The night was OK, but the wet ski boots in the morning were … :-) I think we wimped out that morning and warmed up the milk for the muesli.
Cheers
Roger
the due date was yesterday.
when and how will the final gearlist be chosen?
Ryan J, I think it is up to you
good luck
I concur w/ RF— sub5 sub6 or a blend. We also don’t know if a modded Xtreme is available for your journey. The Wind Pro w/ inverted canister operation is certainly an option ( with or without modification).
Do let us know. The masses were largely silent (and burnt out) at the end.
tschuss.
KD
OK, everyone, I will look this over and get back to you shortly. Both are awesome lists. It will be tough. I suspect I’ll come back to you with a blend. My trip will likely be either Dec 28-30 or in early January, weather permitting of course ;)
Needless to say, we have plenty of snow everywhere. Montana is buried, there was 9 feet in the area I’m planning to go back to for this trip a week ago.
Waiting….still waiting….
good luck Ryan
What are the reason(s) for selecting fleece socks not wool socks?
Bryan,
The fleece socks you are referring to are the RBH Vapor Barrier socks. They are sort of a composite sock that has the VB and the fleece in a single item. If he was using a wool sock, he would need to bring a separate VB liner as well. The VB liner is necessary to provide adequate warmth from such a light system and to prevent his insulating sock from getting wet from perspiration (no spares.)
Bob
OK—I get it now.
I’ve never tried VB socks or a VB liner with my wool socks. I’ve lived in some pretty cold places (Montana, Vermont, and Switzerland) and have found my wool socks to keep me cozy, even with the foot perspiration. However, I’ve never been out for an extended period in SUL conditions. Perhaps that’s the difference.
Cheers,
OK, here’s where I’m at. I split the difference in weight between the two lists. 95% of the ideas were incorporated into this final list. I opted for “less stuff” and bought some of the weight back with “warmer stuff”.
I’ll continue to update and note those updates as the dates get closer. Looking at between xmas and new years or early january right now.
The achilles heel of this list, and all of the lists I think, is the lack of waterproof gear for digging the snowcave. I’ll gamble with the VB, a judiciously placed foam pad, and slow down to regulate sweating and sloppiness somewhat.
The other weakness of this list is the lack of meaningful winter insulation (clothing + sleeping) if the snowcave concept fails for some reason. Hence the addition of a killer firestarting kit.
Finally, the clothing system, and especially, the torso clothing, is brutally simple: two pieces. The VB is a decent base layer because the inner surface is napped and “warm” relative to something like a silnylon VB. But exercising, stopping, donning the Cocoon, will definitely result in a chill. The strategy for anything but a very nice day will be slow and steady progress to regulate sweating and energy levels.
Other challenges? (hint: there are many ;)
RYAN’S FINAL GEAR LIST FOR THE SUL WINTER CHALLENGE:
Clothing Worn
10.0 RBH Designs VB Jacket
8.0 RBH Designs VB Pants
4.0 BMW Featherlite Vapor Mitts
2.0 Headsweats Winter Cap
1. Changed clothing worn list to reflect the lightest possible combination that will likely be worn, moved remainder of clothing to the pack.
2. Ditched the sun hat.
3. Relying on synthetic high loft insulation (see below) for active warmth in really foul conditions in lieu of the MW tights and shirt.
4. Ditched liner gloves. If stuff can’t work while wearing mitts, then it doesn’t work ;)
Footwear
1.5 Smartwool RBX Socks (liners)
3.0 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
24.0 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
16.0 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
35.0 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes
1. Lightened liner socks to an ankle length wool liner, ditched extra socks.
Other Items Worn / Carried
0.2 Maiu Jim Titanium Frame Sunglasses
0.5 ACR Whistle, Photon Freedom, AirCore 1 Lanyard
1.3 Suunto X6
5.4 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
1.5 Snow Baskets for Trekking Poles
0.2 Gossamer Gear Mini Sunscreen
1. Lighter sunglasses.
2. Flatter whistle.
112.6 Ounces
7.04 Pounds total worn/carried (not in pack)
Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
0.0 Snowcave
21.0 Expedition Arc X Quilt
3.6 Vapr Nano Bivy
3.7 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso
5.7 Gossamer Gear Thinlight 3/8 19.5 x 59
5.6 Snowclaw Shovel
8.5 BMW Cocoon Pullover
8.5 BMW Cocoon Pants
3.5 Marmot Ion Windshirt
2.5 OR Windpro Balaclava
1. Saved weight in other gear/clothing & bought back some down fill in the bag.
2. Simplified pad system.
3. Synthetic insulation as a backup for the down bag.
4. Ditching “extras” like socks, will wear overboots over VB liners to bed if it’s that bad.
5. Replaced CTE bala with Windpro bala (more warmth for less weight)
Pack
3.7 Gossamer Gear G6
1.0 Various Nano Stuff Sacks for bag, clothes, gear
1. Added some stuff sacks for organization of gear.
Cook/Hydration
2.5 Trangia 1L Sauce Pan
0.2 Foil Lid
0.4 BPL Titanium Mini-Spork
0.3 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
2.3 1.5L Nalgene wide mouth cantene
5.1 Modified MSR Windpro Stove
3.5 220 g canister (empty)
0.4 Ti windscreen / heat reflector
1. Replaced 3L cantene with 1.5L cantene for less bulk. Will plan on 1.5L per day of water carried/consumed outside of morning & evening in camp.
2. Replaced Xtreme with modified Windpro (Mike Martin’s design).
3. Added back weight savings of stove with more fuel.
Essentials
1.8 Petzl Zipka Plus w/Li Batteries
0.5 TP: 4”x4” blue shop towel squares
0.3 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
0.3 Aloksak for organization
1.0 Firestarting Kit: Esbit Tab, Sparklite, Tinder-Quik, Lighter, Storm Matches
1. Replaced Tikka with Zipka and factored in Li battery weights.
2. Ditched candles, opting for more down in sleeping bag, stove fuel.
3. Ditched the knife and added back the weight in firestarting supplies.
85.9 Ounces
5.37 Pounds base weight carried in pack
12.41 Pre-food/fuel/water skin out weight
70.0 2.5 days food @ 28 oz/day (2xB, 3xL, 2xD)
7.7 Fuel weight in 220 g canister
50.7 Initial water capacity at trailhead
I see you did not try to go sub 5.
thats Ok, I was thinking this was going to happen the whole time
you decided to go a little more minimal, good luck you know more than I do.
“0.5 TP: 4”x4” blue shop towel squares”
I know it’s only .5 oz but if there is going to be enough snow to build a snowcave, there will be enough snow to make TP unnecessary. Or are Montana backpackers more sensitive to the cold than Alberta backpackers ;-)
Interesting list.
I’ll miss seeing a report on the prototype eVENT Cocoon on this trip.
Maui Jim’s? C’mon,maybe a little too effete? :-)> Hope there’s enough face coverage.
I agree about the weak link in this list being it’s suitability for snow cave digging. I look forward to the live RSS feed on this one. I hope profanity will not be censored.
Change of Balaclavas– I would go an extra 1/2 oz. and use OR’s Balaclava w/ face mask, over the lighter Windpro model which leaves more face exposed.
A little surprised not to see an intermediate layer of insulation over the VB. A little all or nothing in the insulation choice dept. Buts that’s me– I personally would elect to carry another 10 oz. of clothing for “hiking my own hike”.
How did you get your Suunto X6 to 1.3 oz.? Mine weighs in at almost 2. There doesn’t seem to be alternative straps for the X6 available.
Thanks, Ryan for the opportunity to brainstorm for this trip. As a result I personally feel more comfortable/inspired in shaping a UL list reflecting Cascade conditions and needs. It will be somewhat heavier–but not by much.
I’m also thrilled that the Winter SUL Challenge acted as a spur to adapting a couple of great stoves to the UL world—at least for Winter use.
Many kudos to Bill, Michael, Ryan F.,Roger, and all, for their work on this.
If only MSR and Coleman are listening….
It looks like the Xtreme will end up weighing at 6oz +/- a small amount. This is with a set of Titanium legs, a milled value assembly, a lighter burner head and dumping a few other parts that don’t seem to be necessary.
The 6oz total weight is a reduction of about 57% over the stock weight of 11oz. My goal was a 60% weight reduction. The extra 3% could be achieved if I milled the corners of the valve assembly but I didn’t think I would like the way it would then look.
– Titanium and parts for the Stove Stand/Legs and .5 to 1 hour labor.
– Milling the valve assembly 1.45 to 2 hours labor.
– New “Lighter” Burner head .5 hour labor plus parts.
Bill-
That sounds terrific! I’d love to see a photo when you’re done. Your stove should beat the windpro system on weight when you figure in the canister weights.
Best Regards,
-Mike
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