Ryan Jordan’s SUL Winter Challenge

Ryan J. said:
1 (R) – Because as a canister stove runs, the canister cools and output goes down. You have to run a stove a long time to melt snow. Canister stoves SMOKE white gas for short burn times, but long burns in cold weather, not so hot no mo.

1 (B) – What about a canister cozy maybe with a chemical pack ? This would require a remote type canister stove. !!Continued Below!!

Michael M. said:
2 (M) – With a longer boil time, the pot loses more heat energy to the environment, lowering fuel efficiency. Theoretically, an ideal stove would transfer all of its heat to the pot (without wasting flame heating up the air around the pot) in the shortest amount of time possible.

2 (B)- !! I made an insulated collor that fits around my cook pot. The insulation is Ceramic Fiber that is used for Pottery Kilns and is good for very high temperature.
My insulated collar might help the pot retain enough heat to offset the little extra weight you would carry.!!

Ryan my man—“You’ve got serious thrill issues,dude. Awesome.” Crush is a very wise sea turtle.

Bill writes:

>> I made an insulated collor that fits around my cook pot. The insulation is Ceramic Fiber that is used for Pottery Kilns and is good for very high temperature.
My insulated collar might help the pot retain enough heat to offset the little extra weight you would carry.!!

Sounds cool, Bill (like most of your projects!). I haven’t done any testing with heat exchangers or insulators yet. Your insulated pot might be much more efficient…or not. It depends on whether there is a net heat flow into or out of the sides of the pot. And, that depends on the stove’s flame pattern, pot geometry, and windscreen configuration — Jetboil uses a collar to great effect as most of the heat is directed at the bottom of the pot, while a side-burner alcohol stove with flames engulfing the sides of the pot might actually suffer with side insulation. Please let me know how it works for you. [thanks.]

“Canister stoves SMOKE white gas for short burn times, but long burns in cold weather, not so hot no mo.”

Side by side on Mount Adams at ~10,000 doing nothing but melting snow, the Xtreme SMOKED a Whisperlite. That was 6 or so years ago. I haven’t used anything since that can even touch the Xtreme for snow melting. Canisters are lighter, stove is the same weight as white gas, they’re more fuel efficient, and you can’t spill the fuel. I’ve modified one from the original 11 ounces down to about 7 ounces, making it an even better deal. It’s the only stove I’d consider for snow melting.

Curt– can you tell us how you modified your stove to get it down to 7 oz.?

Also, can you figure out approx. fuel consumption for 2 1/2 days based on your winter/alpine experience?

Thanks.
KD

Based on everyone’s concerns and Ryan’s experience, the following Pad system is up for discussion—
Nightlight Torso Pad 3.7 oz. used over Nightlightpad(GossamerGear) 19.5x59x3/4″ at 7.5 oz.
Oware pad cut down to 12x24x1/4″ at .85 oz.
Last doubled for feet and lower legs.
Total weight is 12.05 oz.

A cut down Nightlight pad could be substituted for
the folding torso pad.

I almost forgot–the small “foot” pad also doubles as an insulation pad for whatever stove system is employed.

Curt is correct about canister stoves, they work best in high altitudes, but if they get cold they tend to die. (has happend to me at about 10-15 degrees) I dont know if there is any canister cozies for sale, I know Bill Fornshell has made one. do you think one of the antigravity gear pot cozys is a comparable size for a canister?

But I still think cooking over fires may be a good idea (it saves all this confusion and mabey half a pound or so, and Ryan is willing to do it!!!!!!)

Any way,

a Anti gravity gear 3cup bowl cozy may work for a MSR 8oz feul canister.(modified)

and a mini solo cozy modified may work for the smaller snow peak canisters

according to Bill you use these in conjunction with a chemical heat pack.

Ryan F,

The Coleman Xtreme Stove is a Liquid Feed Gas stove. It is not nearly as subject to cold as the usual Canister type Gas Stove.

Rich

Ryan F writes:

>> a…cozy may work for a…feul canister… According to Bill you use these in conjunction with a chemical heat pack.

Ryan F-

You have a fertile mind! You do well in representing the next generation of lightweight backpackers. Maybe you’ll follow in Ryan J’s, or Bill F.’s footsteps…

Bill’s chemical heat pack is key if you want this canister cozy idea to work. Canisters cool from the inside as the fuel evaporates. Without an external source of heat, a cozy would make them even colder.

btw, this is one big advantage to the Powermax canisters as the liquid feed system causes the evaporation (and related cooling) to occur outside the canister. (The other big advantage is that the Propane in the mixture doesn’t boil off first.)

Best Regards,

-Mike M.

Actually, getting it down to just the burner and control valve gets you to 5.7 ounces. At that weight I’d be tempted to choose it over a Pocket Rocket/Snowpeak stove because I prefer the remote canister and the lighter/recyclable canisters.

But, 5.7 ounces includes no stand setup at all and it’s a pain to get the cartridges on.

How you add weight back to gain these functions is up to you. I’ve used a Pocket Rocket 3-leg stand inverted as a stand and it works great – adds an ounce or so. Using tent stakes or a mesh stand that can hold the pot would keep the weight just under 7 ounces.

I’m not a big fan of that setup, though, so I’m working on other ideas. Something that could support the burner and a pot that weighs an ounce or less would be perfect. Very, very possible – I just haven’t put the time into figuring it out yet.

By the way, not sure who mentioned it about cartridges in cold, but the Coleman Powermax setup should NOT be considered the same as regular cartridges. It’s a different setup altogether. Cut one of these canisters open and there’s a metal (brass?) tube inside that runs the length of the cartridge. Not only does this allow liquid fuel to be drawn, but it gets every last drop out of the canister. Empty canisters from use weigh the same as empty canisters that have been punctured and drained.

If Coleman would come up with a F1 Ultralight style stove that used the Powermax system, I’d be first in line to get one.

-Curt

Thanks, Curt. I’m personally intrigued. I would have to get my hand on one to seriously tackle a solution. Perhaps sometime this Winter, I’ll do so. Someone with a metal shop like Bill F (if he were interested in the problem) would probably come up with a slick answer.

Any ideas about fuel consumption over 2 1/2 days
(based on the nature of Ryan’s trip)?

I wonder if RJ would be interested in using this stove w/ one of your suggested mods for the Winter UL trip?

More info to add to the mix. See the thread MELTING SNOW: Fuel Efficiency and Boil Time Comparisons of Four Gas Backpacking Stoves in Winter Conditions for details, but here are the highlights:

Time to Boil 2L of Water from Snow

19 *F, very slight breeze

XGK: 20 minutes
Simmerlite: 21 minutes
Xtreme: 21 minutes
Jetboil: 54 minutes

Fuel Consumed

XGK: 2.8 oz
Simmerlite: 3.2 oz
Xtreme: 2.2 oz
Jetboil: 1.5 oz

RyanJ,

do you know the times for melting snow over a fire?

are you still willing to cook over fires, because if you are I think that may be the best option for this trip. only .5oz for a lighter and no extra feul to carry.

if you are trying to go sub 5 this may be the only option because you can devote the extra 10oz twords warmer clothing, so you will not freeze.
also, what could be better than sitting next to a warm fire after a day of hiking in sub freezing weather?

P.S. I saw these a while back. they are called Fire Pistons I have no clue of the weights but if worn on the lanyard (in accessories section), then it will be no extra weight carried.

I did some quick computing, using your figures, Ryan J.

With the 4 stove systems you tested– the Jetboil and the Simmerlite would be the clear winners from a weight standpoint if we were just boiling 2L of water (22 oz total system weight for the Jetboil and 21.1 Simmerlite– weights used inc. smallest Jetboil cart. and a Sigg fuel container w/ just enough fuel for the MSR stove to do the test). A stripped down Xtreme could be as low as 21.4 oz. using a small powermax cartridge, a stock extreme would be 25.4. The XGK would also be 25.4 oz. minimum.

But, the longer the trip/ more snow melting sessions, the Xtreme would start to leave the others behind.
Say for a total of 8 liters of water melted (4 seperate sessions), approx. weights would be–
Jetboil -29 oz. (2 cart.)
Simmerlite- 30.7 oz.
stock Xtreme-25.4 oz.( same single cartridge used)
and a Xtreme given a diet would be as little as 21.4 oz.
The XGK leads the rear once more–33.8 oz.

If the curve were to continue (more sessions) I would suspect that the Xtreme would develop an increasingly larger lead with the Simmerlite taking over 2nd place from the Jetboil.

All weights given do not include a windscreen.

Kevin, good points.

You have to factor in the weight of the windscreen and reflector (+2 oz) for each of the liquid fuel systems (Simmerlite, XGK, Xtreme), since the Jetboil does not require that.

Also, I used a new 450 g Primus canister for the test (total weight full 23.2 oz, empty weight 7.3 oz). So, instead of multiple small canisters, at some point you have to consider larger canisters. The Jetboil canister is a 110g or so canister, then you have the 220’s and 450’s to work with too.

I might redo this comparison, for what it’s worth with the larger cartridge sizes–info on Jetboils larger cartridges has gone missing from their site and I thought (although I guess I’m wrong, that one needed a cartridge of the same outside diameter as Jetboil’s to work with their system.

Good point about the windscreen weight not being factored in.

And of course, I went ahead and did it—

A corrected reckoning( windscreen weights inc. and jetboil gets a single large cartridge) would look like:

With the 4 stove systems — the Jetboil and the Simmerlite would be the clear winners from a weight standpoint if we were just boiling 2L of water (22 oz total system weight for the Jetboil and 23.1 Simmerlite– weights used inc. smallest Jetboil cart. and a Sigg fuel container w/ just enough fuel for the MSR stove to do the test). A stripped down Xtreme could be as low as 23.4 oz. using a small powermax cartridge, a stock extreme would be 27.4. The XGK would also be 27.4 oz. minimum.

But, the longer the trip/ more snow melting sessions, the Xtreme would start to leave the others behind.
Say for a total of 8 liters of water melted (4 seperate sessions), approx. weights would be–

stock Xtreme-27.4 oz.( same single cartridge used)
and a Xtreme given a diet would be as little as 23.4 oz.
Jetboil -29 oz. (2 cart.) or w/ 1 large MSR cart., 27.65 oz.
Simmerlite- 32.7 oz.
The XGK leads the rear once more–35.8 oz.

However–when we go to 16 Liters of water from snowmelt in 8 melting sessions— we find a different ranking.

Jetboil with superlarge Primus cartridge- = 38.2 oz.
stock Xtreme (w/ 1 lg. and 1 sm. cartridge)=41.0
modded Xtreme could go down to

The jetboil on paper looks awfully good except for long melting times and questions about cartridge performance when approaching empty.

The ideal would be the Jetboil system approach married to the Xtreme. An idea that Bill F seems to be working on.

the biggest surprise of the 16 L comparison is how little a difference in weight there really is between systems.

> I’d love for Roger Caffin to weigh in again here. I’m a fellow fan of the Coleman Xtreme (Powermax) stove. But, it’s not really SUL.

Well, thanks!
Yes, I am a big fan of the Xtreme. We rely heavily on it – and it serves us well.
I am puzzled too by Ryan’s figures for gas use. I have been using about 45 grams per day for TWO people in the snow, although that assumed some creek water rather than all snow melting. More importantly, I found I was normally using about half the weight of b/p gas compared to auto gas, summer and winter.
It may be that I get such good figures fr canister gas becasue I never run the Xtreme flat out. That can be very wasteful.

> > Finally, I’m a bit surprised that Ryan had higher fuel consumption w/ canisters than with white gas. Can anyone offer a good explanation?

> Because as a canister stove runs, the canister cools and output goes down.

That ONLY applies to upright gas stoves. It does NOT apply to the Xtreme, which is a liquid-feed stove, exactly the same as a petrol stove.

I would like to film a movie, “Saving Dr. Ryan” which would invole me choppering in my ancient Bibler Ahwahnee tent, a Mountain Hardware 0 degree sleeping bag, and a Big Agnes insulated pad. We could rescue the strep-ridden hero from his cold, leaky snow cave and frozen sleeping bag. I would include Ryan F, who could unload a pile of firewood from the chopper, and start a huge fire to combat the incipient hypothermia. Then I would get a bottle of 18 year old single malt scotch to aid our protagonist. I predict a happier ending than the guy who was eaten by his friend, the grizzly bear. I think it wiser to not sign my name, or forever risk banishment from BPL forums.

KD dat u?

Funny,

I still dont understand why no one is considering fire cooking.

and if you are going to the trouble of flying in by chopper, at least bring him a Feathered Friends Snowy Owl

and a Coleman Heater
:-)>

Sounds like KL to me.

Not I. Assuming correct interpretation of cryptic query.
Single malt scotch sounds good, anyway. Send it to me.

Not KD. VH?