intense emotions at altitude?

[W I S N E R !]

"Show me the studies…" I think that's exactly what the OP is asking for…

[David Ure]

[Billy Ray]

Alternate explanations for extreme emotions experienced at altitude could be: 1) Intense sunlight at altitude (as opposed to less oxygen) 2) Intense exercise 3) Dehydration 4) Electrolytic imbalance 5) Anxiety from being in an extreme landscape 6) Other You don't know what you don't know Billy

[ben .]

well this conversation turned a corner! studies are definitely interesting, and oddly comforting. but for me, anecdotal reports from individuals are as well. half of the rigorous and thoughtful studies done in the world seem to be disproven a few years later, so i'm not sure we want to put all our eggs in that basket. and anyway, none of us are proving anything definitive here on an internet backpacking website… just talking! the study i linked in the original post that looks at high rates of depression/suicide in high-altitude states is worth a look. 'true' or 'not' in the long run, it's a fascinating line of inquiry: http://mic.com/articles/104096/there-s-a-suicide-epidemic-in-utah-and-one-neuroscientist-thinks-he-knows-why

[Billy Ray]

That's an interesting 'study' Ben. I enjoy the read and does give something to think about. But it is important to always remember that what we are reading at that link is NOT a study. Rather it's an article about a study written by a journalist. I have had journalists interview me for an article about my business in the past. The article that came out in the newspaper was about 180 degrees different from what I told the journalist… crazy. And… I have heard others say the same thing. All one needs do is follow the daily reporting on what political candidates said… much of it reported by taking out of context… it would seem, in order to make the statements more controversial or interesting. Billy

[Billy Ray]

Also… look at the key on the map of suicides. The difference in the low number for the 'high altitude' states and the high range for a state like Kansas is only 2 suicides per 100,000 people. Somehow that does not seem terribly convincing. My guess is that could easily be withing the range of statistical error… not to mention interpretation and judgement.

[Roger Caffin]

I have also seen this with novices on very long trips. They are OK for a while (a week or two), then they suddenly get very nervous and want OUT. Just not used to long periods of self-reliance. For that matter, I have also experienced this with extreme terrain. There are places near home where the navigation and scrub are really complex and difficult – really difficult. First time there can produce considerable nervousness after just 24 hours. A feeling of total confusion. You get used to it though. Cheers

[Paul Beres]

I've experienced some unusual emotional states while in the mountains at altitude, but not often enough to think that it is altitude alone that is responsible. I think that for most of us, being in the mountains entails numerous differences from our everyday routine in addition to the environmental differences such as altitude and temperature variations. Attempting to assign causality among the various different factors is most likely not going to be feasible. But I think what can safely be said is that any situation that a person gets into that involves added stress, whether physical (like long days on the trail and the effects of altitude) or mental (like increased self-reliance, loneliness, fears of various kinds), is quite likely to bring about an emotional response of one kind or another. What I have experienced has been mostly intensified emotion. Once on a trip soon after a family member's death, I found myself grieving intensely once I got into the mountains in a way that I hadn't at home. Maybe more important than hashing out whether this experience is borne out by studies is to be cognizant of the possibility and particularly in a situation that might become extreme or an emergency. It think most of us are aware that in an emergency situation it's very important to stay calm and rational . But calming yourself down may be easier if you have in the back of your mind the idea that the feelings you are experiencing may be intensified by where you are; helping you to know that things are not as bad as they seem to be.

[jimmy b]

"Maybe more important than hashing out whether this experience is borne out by studies is to be cognizant of the possibility and particularly in a situation that might become extreme or an emergency." Ah, well said. You put into words quite nicely what I meant by common sense. With the lack of (truthful?) definitive info, in my case, that's all I have to work with. thanks.

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

I've noticed weird emotional reactions at altitude. Not all the time though, and sometimes I don't realize it until later. I sometimes feel panicky, like I have this overwhelming desire to flee and in my head I'm saying over and over "I've got to get out of here! Get me out of here! NOW!" And with this panicky feeling a sense of dread and sadness. I feel like I'm the only living being on the planet, so lonely, close to death and it doesn't let up until I'm in the trees again. I've felt this way in the Sierras, especially when I was hiking the PCT. I also had not enough food when I was hiking the PCT and that was when I felt the worst despair and panic. Sometimes I've sort of felt nothing. Empty. Mentally vacant. That's how I felt in Nepal at 18,000ft. When I finally descended to around 15,000 feet it felt like this dark cloud of gloom lifted off me and life was worth living again. I hadn't noticed when I was up higher that I felt like that until the cloud lifted. Other times I've felt great. Light, free and happy. These past few times hiking in the Sierras and up to White Mountain Peak I've felt like that. I think it might be because I've gotten physically stronger and on these trips I've eaten better nutrition. Way more protein.

[Bob Shaver]

I was on a trip this summer where we hiked 6 miles, and camped at 10,000'. A gal with us had a panic attack and was totally freaked out…about nothing. Good to know that the altitude could have caused it. But next time, I'll slap her and tell her "don't be pulling that panic attack crap until you have a peer reviewed study!"

[Billy Ray]

It's just city people freaked out by the great outdoors… fear of not having 4 walls and a roof to protect you. billy

[Ralph Burgess]

"Alternate explanations for extreme emotions experienced at altitude could be: 1) Intense sunlight at altitude (as opposed to less oxygen) 2) Intense exercise 3) Dehydration 4) Electrolytic imbalance 5) Anxiety from being in an extreme landscape 6) Other You don't know what you don't know" I'll add: 7) Reporting bias. 8) Confirmation bias. I think I missed out on the earlier polemica, but I have to agree with Billy here. Assigning cause and effect to medical conditions based on anecdotal evidence (even massive amounts of anecdotal evidence) is notoriously unreliable. It's an area where rigorous scientific methodology (controls, blinding, etc.) is critical. Human intuition ("common sense") just doesn't work well in this area. For example – if someone's sick, and they take some treatment, then they get better…. trying to convince that person that it may not have been the treatment that made them better is next to impossible.

[Anonymous]

If i had remained dependent on scientific/medical treatment and paradigms, and didn't follow my intuition and listen to anecdotal info, i would still have the mysterious "allergy to heat" that i was diagnosed with and ineffectively treated with pharmaceutical drugs that only addressed/treated the symptoms (severe, very painful all body hives) and not the core causes. (and which i later treated successfully with radical diet and health lifestyle changes well after completely dropping the prescribed medication). So, while i generally agree with the spirit of Ralph's post…deep, intense personal experience has opened up my mind more to the potential benefit of going outside purely scientific and/or "expert" boxes, and listening to intuition and anecdotal reports/info (yes, those dreaded and much maligned "alternative" treatments and understanding). Like many things in life, balance is key. I believe both are potentially beneficial. When in doubt, go with the meta research. When in lack of help from same, seek alternatives. (also, realize that science isn't pure, because people aren't pure, and special interests are increasingly involved with scientific funding and research, and these, like pharmaceutical corporations, have an agenda other than just pure truth, though i would say the average scientist does mostly value the ideal of truth). An example of this comparison and contrast. Recently and finally a mainstream, well respected health and science based organization, the World Health Organization, came out and said after looking at hundreds of studies, that processed meats and probably red meat were carcinogenic–the majority of the panel agreed on this. Thankfully, i didn't wait on the WHO with baited breath to convert my beliefs. This to me, was common sense, and even at age 16, listening to my intuition, i stopped eating beef, pork, and other meats that were processed (cold cuts, etc) for health reasons years before i started to eat vegetarian for other reasons besides health (now, mostly vegetarian/technically pescatarian). I definitely felt better and consistently had higher levels of energy after cutting out beef, pork, and cold cuts. So, my cynical side rather dislikes individuals overly giving over their power to organized, establishment type authority for various reasons and not thinking for themselves and being told what and how to think. Such conformity and non questioning stifles true progress, creativity, and other potentially beneficial developments.

[Ito Jakuchu]

I agree with Ralph that a lot of thought about this is unreliable. But (and?) this discussion also reminds me of the concept of the sublime. Sublime Wikipedia Some, perhaps bit random, quotes: "The development of the concept of the sublime as an aesthetic quality in nature distinct from beauty was first brought into prominence in the 18th century in the writings of Anthony Ashley-Cooper, John Dennis and Joseph Addison, in expressing an appreciation of the fearful and irregular forms of external nature… All three Englishmen had, within the span of several years, made the journey across the Alps and commented in their writings of the horrors and harmony of the experience, expressing a contrast of aesthetic qualities." "Burke's concept of the sublime was an antithetical contrast to the classical notion of the aesthetic quality of beauty … and suggested ugliness as an aesthetic quality in its capacity to instill feelings of intense emotion…" "Burke's treatise is also notable for focusing on the physiological effects of the sublime, in particular the dual emotional quality of fear and attraction noted by other writers…" "To clarify the concept of the feeling of the sublime, Schopenhauer listed examples of its transition from the beautiful to the most sublime. For him, the feeling of the beautiful is pleasure in simply seeing a benign object. The feeling of the sublime, however, is pleasure in seeing an overpowering or vast malignant object of great magnitude, one that could destroy the observer."

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

I think it's a little ridiculous to say it's just city people afraid of not having 4 walls and a roof. I have a parrot whose native habitat is below the forest canopy. That bird does not like to see the sky. She is okay if there's a tree or a roof above her but the open sky terrifies her. Is that just being a "citified" parrot or is it her natural instinct? Humans are animals too. There is a reason why we find open vistas so beautiful and there are reasons why no human culture lives year round above 15,000 feet elevation. Our technology can do a lot but cannot overcome all difficult habitats. We can tolerate high altitude for a little while. Some cannot tolerate it at all. I agree the intense sunlight could be a possible trigger. Feeling like I am being fried to a crisp and having nowhere to escape the intense radiation does sometimes make me feel anxious.

[jimmyjam]

There have been studies that indicate that taking ibuprofin can help with altitude sickness, google it. I am live at relatively low altitude about 200 ft and when we go to the Grand Canyon or Bryce ( 7,000 to 9,000)we find it takes us about 2 days to adjust.

[Ralph Burgess]

"Alternate explanations for extreme emotions experienced at altitude could be: 1) Intense sunlight at altitude (as opposed to less oxygen) 2) Intense exercise 3) Dehydration 4) Electrolytic imbalance 5) Anxiety from being in an extreme landscape 6) Other You don't know what you don't know" I'll add: 7) Reporting bias. 8) Confirmation bias. . . . . . 9) Grammar

[bill berklich]

Things to think about

“…studies reviewed here show that altitude produces adverse alterations in human mood states, behavior…” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK232882/

“Alterations in mood and personality traits are common during altitude exposures.” https://phc.amedd.army.mil/topics/discond/ai/Pages/AltitudeEffects.aspx

“Alterations in psychological mood, personality, behaviour and cognitive functioning associated with altitude have been recognised for many years.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8378672

“…confirm the findings of previous research that unearthed a complex and as-yet not fully explained relationship between higher than average suicide rates and residency in higher elevations.” http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=124856

“In 1977, Banderet26 conducted one of the first systematic
studies of mood changes at HTE using the
Clyde Mood Scale” http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA410036

“Adverse mood symptoms were found to be affected by altitude changes” http://clinicalschizophrenia.net/pdfs/FeaturedPaper-Brahm.pdf

There’s more if you take the time to look though this field of study is in it’s infancy.

[Art …]

I’ve never seen or personally experienced what you describe merely from being at altitude.

however, I have seen in others and personally experienced what you describe as a result of extended periods of exercise which drain the body and reduce our emotional defenses.

[Ben C]

This happened to a friend of mine while in the Sierra last summer.  He just wanted to find the quickest way off the trail and to his family.  I talked him down.  We finished the trip.

I suspect it had more to do with unfamiliar surroundings and being away from family for a lengthy period.  But I could not discount the possibility of altitude causing the issue.

[Lester Moore]

Altitude can affect people emotionally in different, and often nonconstructive, ways. Whatever the cause, I’ve seen it enough (and experienced it some myself) to warrant a little extra caution above 12,000′ or so, especially when interacting with folks you don’t know, or with folks who are out of their comfort zone or unfamiliar with how altitude affects them.

I’ve seen a few people freaking out beyond what’s rational above 13,000′, with almost incapacitating fear. I’ve also seen many people become more touchy and emotionally sensitive at higher altitude, including myself. Feeling light headed, foggy brained, forgetful and mentally slower have been standard for me at altitude, especially without proper acclimatization or going above 20,000′.

Whether it’s the lack of O2, heavy exertion, sun light, really smelly partners, some other factor or a combination of factors, high altitude can bring strong emotions to the surface. In other areas of life, combining physical and emotional stress is an effective way to peel away emotional defenses and expose raw emotions in people. And doing stuff at high altitudes certainly can cause physical and emotional stress. Despite all this, I absolutely love going high, though I forget why ;-)

 

[ben .]

bill, thanks for taking the time to put those links together.

[Roger Caffin]

I suspect it had more to do with unfamiliar surroundings and being away from family for a lengthy period.

This problem has been well-known for many decades or more. It can often be seen in novices on their first long wilderness trip. I suspect that this effect is different from any altitude effect, but that the two may often get confused.

Cheers

 

[jscott]

nm

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