#Moonlight tent …

Catch 22. If you stop the spam, you stop the introduction of new products. BPL members seem to be a very picky group. When an untested product is presented as the best product on the market or any other marketing gimmick, they're going to get called out. They will have to back themselves with actual facts and not just more marketing slop. Calling out the mods doesn't show much respect for the whole community. Whatever. Kickstarter = Vaporware and hype. Good luck.

Terran, when the mods are wishy washy on the rules, then that doesn't show respect for the paying community either.

"The rule has always been that a MANUFACTURER cannot post a gear deal unless there is a unique special for BPL members (MLD posting a BPL15 code or something of that ilk)"

Link please.

Manufacturers use codes to see where their buyers are coming from.

I agree that I'd like to be able to see ANY gear deal, whether it's specific to BPL or not. If I don't want it, I won't click on it – no worries.

And people post sales from backcountry.com, campsaver, patagonia sales, etc all the time – i find that helpful and don't know why that is any different than what this guy is doing. Granted, I'm not interested in his tent, but maybe someone else here is – this is a big community and not everyone has the same shopping list.

I'm still looking for that perfect mod, who makes no mistakes and has no personal interest in anything that they do. This a common problem on many forums and many members choose to go out on their own. Most often they end up making the same mistakes along with many more. This website has served me well and I hesitate to speculate on any inconsistancies that come from being human. Take it to Chaff. The question here is if this a deal or not. I don't believe an unknown untested product that does not exist, can be compared to one that is and be called a deal. It isn't. However the advertisement is still here. Good. It may be the perfect tent for somebody. Being a public forum, one needs to be prepared to back up their claims. I wish all advertisments were presented this way.

On May 5, Roger posted:

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Yes, it is a sales pitch, but it satisfies the BPL criteria for acceptance here:
* It is posted in the Gear Deals forum, which was created for this purpose
* The items are relevant to the needs of BPL members
* A Deal is offered with the posting for each item.

Whether the Deal offered is the cheapest on the web – that is not critical. It is assumed that members are capable of using the web to determine that for themselves. As Eric mentioned, a previous offer on the BNRS-3000T stove has been very well received by BPL members.

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He was defending the postings from GearBest, who posts here regularly and, as far as I can tell, doesn't offer deals exclusive to BPL – those are their regular discounted prices.

I certainly don't expect perfection, but a bit of consistency would be nice.

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I will chip in here as this is a rather important point.
The GearBest deals ARE exclusive to BPL: that is a condition GB has agreed to.
The price on the BRS-3000T stove to BPL members IS lower than offered on the GB web site. That's the deal.
The price on a torch was also lower, except during one week when GB notified everyone that the web price would match the BPL price.

On the other hand, I am sure GB offer special deals to other groups, but that is their privilege.

Cheers
Roger Caffin
Online Community Monitor
Backpacking Light

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My bad, I stand corrected.

In the scheme of the universe and the continued existence of the human species, who cares?

We would be better served to have Roger or somebody move Gear Swap off the main threads page to some remote black hole, where I understand Chaff now resides.

Perhaps this new shelter isn't of interest to most members here, but there might be some who are interested in it. No need to be rude to the OP. Some of the behavior on this thread is embarassing.

I'm 100% with Jen here — I've "unsubscribed" from most gear sellers' email lists (TOO much traffic!), so I have definitely profited from folks posting general deals/sales that are going on.

I think those types of member postings are a BIG help to the community, and should remain.

If it were a one-off, I would not care. MOST of gear swap is one-offs.
If it were for a piece of gear that was known to perform, well…it wouldn't need sales hype and spam.
If he HAD been successful with this or his previous tents, how many are available right now? (This smacks of fraud if there is only one available…why try to market it?)
This is not the first time he has offered the same product. I have seen this before and am not interested due to weight. This is backpacking LIGHT, ie, less than 3 pounds. I don't even talk about my Sirius unless it is in context because a 5pound tent ain't light.
I do not believe Roger wants to ban him. Mike is polite and not a real trouble maker, but this particular tent just doesn't belong here. He apparently has trouble recognizing this, is all. We all make mistakes. We talk grams and ounces, how much does his tent weigh???? Who tested it to place it #1???? And #1 at what???? A kid's corral twenty miles in?? How long to set it up??? And, by whom?? And so on. No facts, except poly blend is better at absorbing less water than nylon…we knew that. It is also heavier. Nope, wrong audience. It belongs on a car camping list. Even car camping, I use small two man tents and my tarp and have since my kids were old enough to go with us at age 3 & 4.

"If he HAD been successful with this or his previous tents, how many are available right now? (This smacks of fraud if there is only one available…why try to market it?)"

Of course it isn't available, it is a KickStarter project. Heck, even the owner of BPL has had vaporware KickStarter products posted here on BPL. Why crucify the OP?

I am not promoting KickStarter, my opinion on crowd funding is well known here. I am not promoting this Moon Light tent. I am not promoting anything other than let's be nice to each other.

I think he has cred as far as tents go. I just felt like he was trying to make me feel like I have all these problems that I dont have. …marketing I guess. Cant blame a man for trying to get paid.

I don't think anybody's being rude. A few accusations over rule enforcement have been thrown out there. Those should have been in chaff. The OP's second post questioning Roger should have been in chaff. These are basically free ads. With unsupported claims, you have to expect feedback. This is just another sales pitch. There's nothing rude in calling it that. Post your ads, but beware, you are subject to peer review. Other venders here, understand that very well and use it to their advantage. It's a win win situation, if you are straight up about what you are selling and it is a good product. Otherwise, you will fail here and on Kickstarter.

"t don't think anybody's being rude."

You don't find this rude?

"And I for one think you have taken up enough 'band width' here at BPL and wish you would go some place else."

Okay, you're right, it isn't rude. Maybe offensive is a better word.

Half of this discusion is on the merits ot the OP's tent. The other half has been a discusion on rules and privledges That does not belong here and has esculated as such discusions do. I really didn't pay much attention to that statement that you call rude. By itself, you are right, it is rude. In context, it was a self defense statement directed at a pushy salesman. The life of a door to door salesman. You get the door slammed in your face. That's the thing with age. I've learned to try and shut the door gently. Still, sometimes I blame that desert wind the door does slam shut. Again, this discusion belongs elsewhere. I would like to hear more about what makes this tent special along with some actual field reports. MSR tents are more exspensive because of these intangent values. I can find peer review on a TT tent or a Six Moons designs. This is simply, "trust me, it's a deal, I worked as a consultant for a client before." That tells me nothing. I find it a little distasteful in itself. I would much rather someone was "rude" or even offensive, then to have them try and talk me out of my money.

I posted the Kickstarter link for those that might be interested. If you're not – and I KNOW a lot of you aren't – please just ignore the post. I'm not trying to get in anyone's face. It's just a post that leads to lots more info if desired.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tentlab/ultimate-performance-3-season-tents-direct-from-th

For those who might want more info on the tent, more than what's on the Kickstarter site, here's a link to my website where there are thousands of words covering a wide range of topics. If I've forgotten something, as always, I'm happy to answer questions.

http://www.thetentlab.com

I find it useful to remember that most people believe that others are like themselves – the dishonest always believe themselves surrounded by thieves, the unaccomplished by fraudsters and exaggerators, the angry and venomous by the pushy, insulting and rude. It's just human nature.

Thanks!
Mike

Publisher's Clearing House wants you.

"The dishonest always believe themselves surrounded by thieves,"

Saves me a lot of money. If you want to call me dishonest, I'm still not buying your tent. Good luck.

"We would be better served to have Roger or somebody move Gear Swap off the main threads page to some remote black hole, where I understand Chaff now resides."

And fill the gaping hole thereby created by restoring CHAFF to its rightful place in the Pantheon of Forum Worthies. ;0))

"I am not promoting anything other than let's be nice to each other."

It is worth noting here that the first guy to promote just that got crucified a couple thousand years ago. Tough sell, Nick. ;0)

Interesting design.

But… how does it appeal to anyone who actually understand how pitching a tent work? I feel the trailer has been dumbed down for car campers, not for hikers.

Sags – Use self-tensioning guylines for any nylon surfaces. Or just fork out a bit more money for laminated plastic.
Adjustable guylines – Trucker’s hitch?
Wind resistance – Well, people on the tundra already figured that out with hexagonal tents and tarps (eg. tipis, chums, Trailstar). Besides, setting up a freestanding tent in the wind is a pain in the butt compared to using a center pole. I would know, I have camped in Norway’s tundra before with a free-standing wind tunnel tent. Free-standing wind-tents make more sense where space is a premium (eg. on a ledge), and even then the product here is huge compared to other mountaineering tents available on the market.
Worn out zippers – Anyone should be able to inspect their tents before going on a hike, and anticipate any problems on a long-distance trek.
Tangled guylines – Anyone with some basic backcountry skill should know how to hank cordages.

The biggest problem with this product is that it assumes the user doesn’t know how to set up a tent or how to dry gears. Most of the premise is targeted toward beginners who don’t have any skill

And bashing thru-hikers in the section about backpackers as the target audience doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. The most uncomfortable moments I had were in freestanding tents because of how slippery the floor is. Tarps and floorless tents allow me to look for moss and spruce to lay down upon. It’s not fun to do slip-and-slide on any terrain.

The assumption thru-hikers are avoiding going above the treeline to camp should be thrown out of the window. Most of the floorless tents people carry are time-tested designs borrowed from aboriginals who lived in harsher elements than most campers will ever face.

Actually the whole premise about backpackers is filled with intellectual dishonesty. It plays on the stereotype people who don’t follow the 1985-style of hiking are masochistic.

And 1.91 kg for two person tent? I carried an Asolo Astro 3 which weighed less than that and roomier, and I don’t want to do that ever again. And I don’t even have any thru-hiking cred.

Age-old problems? Most of those problems have age-old solutions to them, and the only modern one is nylon sagging which also has an innovation (self-tensioning guylines) to go with it.

Normally, I wouldn’t write such harsh criticism. Well, I wouldn’t had responded at all, until I saw the section which made fun of minimalist hikers’ discomfort.

My sister would love a tent like this, but she goes lakeside fishing with a truck. She has no interest in hiking. Backpacking for a couple of kilometer for a more scenic sight, maybe, but that’s about it. I don’t see how it appeals to anyone with actual backcountry experience.

For the money, I think I'd recommend people wanting to backpack with this style of tent, to go with the 'Copper Spur UL 2' at minimum trail weight of 2 lbs 12 oz rather than the minimum weight of 4 lbs 4 oz for the MoonLight 2 .

The Copper Spur is also a tent that they can just go pick up today or have shipped overnight, rather than being on a Kickstarter waiting list and maybe getting one in 6 months or more.

Wish you luck though and if you get your funding, on the next design maybe consider making a stripped down no frills lightweight backpacking model. As a lot of features shown, just jump out to me as needless weight. Like I've never had a problem with guylines being a mess, nor have I ever wished I had a spare pair of zippers on any part of my tent. Those extra gear loops, they don't "weigh nothing" and people can hang stuff off the tent poles instead. The notion of corner tie downs that can extend seems a pretty cool idea on the surface, but maybe make them optional attachments, so they can be subtracted from a minimum trail weight.

Question, is the polyester used in your tent why it is much heavier than the nylon Copper Spur? If so, as cool as it might be, I think I'd rather deal with possible expansion of my tent and some sagging.

"I find it useful to remember that most people believe that others are like themselves – the dishonest always believe themselves surrounded by thieves, the unaccomplished by fraudsters and exaggerators, the angry and venomous by the pushy, insulting and rude. It's just human nature."

Ha ha, not at all. Such psychological tricks are the sure mark of a pushy salesman making the most out of a bad situation. I have no interest in following links to known sites that simply repeat the same old story and one I have read before: "I want your money and I know you are interested in the subject but will give you nothing in return for your money (or something at wildly inflated prices) and my words will make you feel good about giving your money to me." C'mon…you really expect me to bite??

"Cant blame a man for trying to get paid."

That reminds me of the Skurka thread….

My take is that yes, there are quite a bit of rude, intolerant, comments generated by this post. And by the same usual, rude, intolerant suspects. I don't even read their abrasive drivel anymore, just skip over it. The same point could be made by them in a more engaging, instructive manner, without engaging in "slapdown".

The fact of the matter is that the Moonlight is Version 1.0, so it simply can't be the perfect tent for Everyman. It's bound to get better. Do I want one? No, as I already have several. The little space left in my gear closet is reserved for Roger C's tunnel tent (the ETA Roger?).

Finally, the OP has established some cred with The Deuce of Spades, which I think was introduced to me on this forum, and is one of the lightest available, and is now carried by Gossamer Gear…check it out!

Happy trails.

Dave P: Thank you for checking out the project.
I've had to dramatically change the level of detail of the project over the course of the offerings. Maybe it's getting lost in the chopping, but these are really nice tents to pitch and anchor. Way nicer than anything I've ever seen or heard of. The experience is more than the sum of its parts. So that's where I'm coming from. It's normally a second thought when making a tent but not for these. But who wants to hear that? It's so boring…but boring or not, those presentations failed.
I should also point out, if I understand you correctly, that those aren't self-adjusting guylines you talk about, they're tension-equalizing guylines. They all get loose when a formerly dry nylon tent becomes wet. I understand most of the rest of your criticisms – especially as you’re from a region where you really need to know your stuff to go out at all – but I honestly disagree— disagree without implying that I refute your point of view. I would only argue with some of the suppositions you seem to be reacting to. I like your point of view. If more people had it, my job would be easier.
I said the following in my kickstarter backpackers section to explicitly acknowledge that through-hikers probably shouldn't be interested in these tents: "Through-hikers (PCT, AT, CDT), as opposed to section hikers, are probably not the perfect customers for the MoonLights. Going for big mileage from protected low-camp to protected low-camp, means you'll probably be happier with one of the really crazy-lightweight (and expensive) Cuben fiber/trekking pole tents out there. Also – and please don't hate me for saying this – super long distance hikers are, obviously, partly in it for the achievement of overcoming suffering and boredom. MoonLight tents don't fit into that psychology, they're way too comfy."
I apologize for not talking about the really deep reasons for enjoying a meditative experience like that but it doesn't actually filter one kind of backpacking from another. Heavier and shorter backpacking trips are also about it and here I would challenge ultra-lighters to stop screaming about weight so much. It's about the meditativeness of walking and the hearty exercise of doing it. People with 40 and 50 pound packs on shorter trips have this experience too. They are not inexperienced fools. They ARE your comrades. The difference is that once they stop, they want their gear to enhance their enjoyment of being where they've gotten. Maybe even allow them to be comfortable in an especially lovely but potentially harsh place. Does that make sense? It's about priorities. Not good and bad.
If that offends a though-hiker — jeepers, NOT THAT! Am I the only one whose supposed to NOT have less-than-thin skin? I understand that long trails take planning, technique and FOCUS. Excellent. My tents are for the rest of your life where you want one tent to go everywhere and IT performs. I'm not trying to say a person couldn't do it or that they wouldn't have a great time. It's about – it's ALWAYS about – priorities.
Thanks!
Mike

No problem. I don't really have an interest in thru-hiking. Well, a bit of curiosity.

Most of my focus is on wilderness travels, which meant more technical gears– and the more gears one carry, the lighter everything else has to be to stay under that 30 lbs comfort zone. So, there's a lot of convergences and overlaps in alpinism, backcountry hunting, thru-hiking, fastpacking, bikepacking and other sports.

To me, when I take a look at this tent, I think:

1) Tent for people who want to camp instead of hiking (and yes, I know a few of them. They are not too interested in applying for backcountry permits.)
2) Tent for car campers (always a good market, and there are more car campers than hikers)
3) Base camp

Base camp is a big part of the hobby in my social circle. They would hike in 4 miles, set up camp with stove, a kitchen and everything. Then they would pack their rucks for "spike camps" which is basically the equivalent of an ultralight campsite. Usually all that is packed is a sleeping bag, a bivy and a tarp. With a backpack optimized for bivy-mode, they would hike in another 5 to 10 miles deeper into the backcountry.

Except, if you want to tackle #3, beware that means you're competing with Hilleberg, Arctic Oven, Fjallraven, Kifaru, Titanium Goat, Seek Outside, Snowtrekker, Tentsmiths and other popular choices. To be honest, if I want to set up base camp, I would go with a Hilleberg or cotton canvas.

For winter base-camp, the Arctic Oven would be awesome, but canvas are cheaper and more breathable with a hot stove.

I haven't really seen anything that says: "buy me instead of the Hilleberg". It's more a tent that says "if you don't want to learn how to be in the backcountry, this is the tent for you". And yeah, people buy those types of tents all the time at the local Canadian Tire and Wholesale Sports. There is nothing wrong with those types of tents as they appeal more to people who just want to camp for the weekend and guzzle beer.