#Moonlight tent …

Sorry Roger, didn't see the rule.

Looking…still don't see it

You sure you want to make that rule? A month ago I had 260 1/2 price Deuces that were cosmetic seconds and I had to put them up in more than one place.

My tents are a gigantic deal. The price on the ML2 will be $425 after the Kickstart succeeds but that does't explain the deal at all fairly. These tents are bigger, stronger and more fully featured than sorta similar tents on the market – I'm thinking MSR is a good example. They use 20D class materials so it shouldn't be too hard to understand that if MSR (maker of the 20D class $399 Hubba Hubba) made them the ML2 WOULD be about $530 AFTER taking into account MSR's greater buying power. These are HEAVILY discounted tents at the Kickstarter price.

My posting is notification that this genuine deal is available for just two more weeks.

Hope this clears things up.

Best,
Mike

Since you are trying to sell something that does not yet exist, nor has been funded. You have 15 days to go and need still nearly a hundred thousand dollars. Seems clear enough to me that there cannot possible be a Gear Deal.

I don't understand why my post was deleted though. Just linked to the previous discussion here.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=101655

Roger missed calling you out on that one. Might delete it now, hope he just moves it instead.

Since he missed this one too http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=101655 I can understand your confusion.

The rule could be a bit more clear if you don't find it so the way it is…

Gear Deals

Announcements of online & local sales, coupons, etc. Commercial posts OK, but ONLY if you are announcing a sale or coupon.

Like Roger saying it must be exclusive to BPL is not mentioned in the rule.

> Roger missed calling you out on that one. Might delete it now, hope he just moves it instead.
Actually, I moved it from Gear to Gear Deals some time ago.

I will get the heading to the Gear Deals channel updated to show the need for a unique-to-BPL DEAL.

Cheers
Roger Caffin

Thanks Roger. You're wrong.

Gentleman,

By any normal definition this post was about a DEAL. Throwing in some bizarre, It's not a deal if part of it is in the future, is nonsense.

You have also conflated the THREE times I have tried to bring these tents to market. You're not paying attention to what I'm saying at all. Fine. You were never my audience.
The first was the RugRat 3 & 4 last year. I failed. I went back and found new fabrics, tweaked some features, added a 2-person version – making the 3&4 a half pound lighter and $100 cheaper. This Spring that project failed – apparently partially because of the unusually long cold Spring we've been having in the US. I went back again and completely re-tooled the messaging to highlight what is different, finally GOT an independent review, and NOW things are looking pretty good. I have 113 Backers and $90k to go and momentum is with me for a change.

You've met these tents each time with a "Bah! Humbug!" and I've learned not to expect too different from you. But I have to ask, are you really so certain that this attitude is serving you or your customers well?

Mike out.

Mike,

I think your problem is that you are selling to the wrong audience. The folks here – generally speaking – are SUPER picky about their gear, and unless you can convince us why your REI-type tents would make a good addition to our shelters then yeah, you're going to get a fair amount of grief.

But I've been here a long time now and I have to say it's not nearly as bad as on some forums! (FredMiranda, I'm talking to you!)

Don't take it personally.

Roger is just rewriting rules to make the site more awkward and less useable.

No wait, actually, Roger has an interest in being a tent manufacturer and thus has a competing interest. He has tried many years and failed to bring tents to market.

On second thought, maybe you should take it personally.

Just scrolling through Gear Deals it looks like less than 1 in 10 is exclusive to BPL. REI, Campsaver, etc.

Thanks Jennifer, Willie, and Katharina!

Yes, I was a little reluctant to put the MoonLights up here at first but I've noticed that for every vocal ultra-lighter there's at least ten other silent people out there that are casually looking for better and lighter products and solutions. And I think that many of them are long-term outdoor users who would like their tent to work great in a wide variety of conditions AND not let them down when unusual conditions threaten to trash their trip – the vast majority of those trips not being ultralight nor multi-week.

Actually I'm counting on super-picky. Only people who notice that their tent sags when wet or blows down in not-particularly high winds, or is really a gigantic pain to anchor in rocky ground, only people who notice those kinds of things will be my customers.

Thanks!
Mike

Heck of a deal on small tents at Walmart. I bought my last one at Target actually. Good strong tent. A little heavier than my SMD, but a heck of a deal compared to a hyped up overpriced tentthat has the same amount of airspace, sort of. Thought I'd give you a bump for that silent majority that wants to pay high dollar for a deal. There are a dozen people that could put together a better tent. A few willing to sell their products at a very good price compared to large outfitsbor even you. You really have nothing but an attitude. It's just another tent until proven different. Another Kickstarter hoax is all I see.

Thanks Jeffs Eleven,

No worries.

Tents sagging in the middle of the night can't be welcome though, right? Having to wake up and get out (in the rain) in the middle of the night to fix it doesn't sound like a positive (though most dome tents really don't "fix" very well by tightening – the shape becomes simply too big to fit the poles). Look how you've embraced the inconvenience as OK. Doesn't it bother you a little that polyester is available to fix this issue and yet the manufacturers have CHOSEN to ignore it and use nylon? It's not like they tell anyone about this tradeoff. they just do it because it's easy and they don't have to explain anything and no one's complaining. Of course no one's complaining. Who complains about something that they don't know can be (easily) fixed?

No blowdown for you – glad to hear it. But it DOES happen all the time in many many places. It's often random and unexpected but it always has something to do with where you camp. I'm suggesting that with a tent that can handle exposure to winds, one can take advantage of more spectacular campsites. When I camp I want views. With these tents I don't have to hide away in a tree-grotto for fear that things might get nasty. Quite the opposite.

Expertise IS a nice thing, for sure, but hassling with extra cords and so on because a manufacturer didn't see the benefit of building a solution into the tent (at very low weight and cost) seems a little like Stockholm syndrome. I'm suggesting that not having a hassle is good. There's not much controversial about that idea.

Thanks!
Mike

"Having to wake up and get out (in the rain) in the middle of the night to fix it"

I tension mine before the middle of the night. Ya know… before bed.

"(though most dome tents really don't "fix" very well by tightening – the shape becomes simply too big to fit the poles). Look how you've embraced the inconvenience as OK"

Dome tent, Dude?? you REALLY are on the wrong site.

I camp in exposed places!!?!? this is ridiculous

good luck

EDIT yeah… I know about it needing to rain for it to stretch… I live in the PNW… it rains before bed. So I can set up my tent, wait 20 minutes, then retension it. Again, its no hassle. Getting a taught pitch is fun to me. (how tight can I get it? …If I loosen it here, i can get more room over here kinda thing)

Mike,

Don't take offense to any of this. The Gear Deals forum is a giant $#!T show and always has been. Best of luck.

Ryan

One quick technical point:

Nylon EXPANDS when it gets wet. It's not stretch – that's in addition. You can tighten it all you like when it's dry, but when it gets wet its length GROWS. You can't tighten it before it's wet and avoid the problem. And bungies aren't a solution either because they give your tent slack when the wind pushes on it, which makes it flap and so on.

Hope this helps!

Thanks Ryan!

Mike out

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tentlab/ultimate-performance-3-season-tents-direct-from-th

Every experienced hiker knows that the very best (fill in your choice of gear) is made of that rarest of elements, UNOBTAINIUM.

Accordingly, we are stuck with whatever the manufacturers use as a substitute and the depth of our wallets.

Note that Six Moon Designs is trying to serve as wide a market as possible. Their SKYSCAPE tents come in three different materials – polyester, silnylon, and cuben fiber.

Kudos for having the tenacity to fail until you succeed. And yes, the UL and SUL folks are most likely not a good demographic for your products, but thanks for making us aware of your efforts.

So with all your connections in the outdoor manufacturing circles why haven't any of them picked up this design? Or have you not approached them?

Hi Ken, great question.

The thing is, I'm a professional tent designer. I design and spec what my clients want made. I give them a really wide array of choices in structure, features and materials. I give them advice. Then they decide what will be made. In general they already have a line of tents and and materials and a roster of features that, in sum, defines what that brand is about. I'm called upon to make tents that fit seamlessly into their line and way of doing business. To make any core changes would require that marketing switch modes to education and expend quite a lot of resources — all in a product category where margins are lower than other product categories. Core changes rarely happen.

Thanks for the question,
Mike

Mike,
I believe you have the wrong audience.

"Mike,
I believe you have the wrong audience."

Yes. And I for one think you have taken up enough 'band width' here at BPL and wish you would go some place else.

Billy

Since when does it have to be unique to bpl. That's a terrible idea

Since when does it have to be unique to bpl. That's a terrible idea

+1 Never has been. Not in nearly 12 years. Here is how it was originally worded The below is a legacy post from the prior forum.

"Notices of hot sales and coupon codes on lightweight backpacking gear from your favorite retailers."

"Retail Deals Forum Policy on 10/06/2004 00:27:44 MDT
The purpose of the Retail Deals forum is for users to let each other know of sales, coupon codes, closeouts, or other unique retail specials.

If you are an online or chain retailer, please feel free to post your store's good deals, but please keep it focused on lightweight backpacking gear and don't abuse the privelege with frequent postings (once/month is acceptable).

BackpackingLight.com takes no responsibility for the quality of the shopping found at any of the retailer stores listed herein (well, except our own, of course…:)"

From Ryan himself. I think Roger is wrong, very wrong.

The rule has always been that a MANUFACTURER cannot post a gear deal unless there is a unique special for BPL members (MLD posting a BPL15 code or something of that ilk). The "hey I found this online" posts from the general consuming public have been ok. I don't know if that's written, but it has been consistently enforced over the last few years.

Personally I'm getting tired of the near spam level of posting from some accounts that link to their webpage which links to a deal. The generating of funds via clicks without disclosure is a little exploitative of this community.

Mikes a good guy and has the resume to back his ideas with product design.

I haven't been around long enough to know the history & politics of Gear Deals.

But I do find a lot of value here. I don't have time to hunt around all the various gear sites looking for interesting sales, so having other people post notes here is a huge service to me.

If "Gear Deals" is going to become more tightly managed, then maybe we need a "Gear Sale Sightings" forum. Or maybe we need "BPL Gear Exclusives" for those ones that are special to us.

As for spammy ads…one man's spam is another man's treasure. Don't click on 'em if they bother you. (Of course the ability to hide postings from particular accounts would solve both that problem and some of the troll issues on other forums…)