Gentrified?

In regard to hunting, yes, it has become more expensive over the years. The average is now between 40 and 55, and most of them made their money in coal-mining, forestry or other occupations. So they had the chance to save up.

The younger generations, the 20-something and 30-something have lucrative careers and those who got stuck in dead-end jobs just don't have a chance because their peers are willing to pay for whatever price the market demands.

But there is definitely gentrification underway. 30 years ago, one used to be able to hunt on other people's properties without having to ask for permission. Nowadays, there are steep trespass fees and expensive leases.

But a lot of that is because most hunters live in cities now and don't have relatives to show them the rope, on where or how to hunt so they try to buy people out either by hiring guides or paying landowners to exclude everyone ele. Unfortunately that usually means a bidding war and they can be very competitive and sometimes downright vicious.

Talk about hunting being for the affluent…Try doing it here in Southern California.

It is increasingly feeling like anything worth shooting is on private property and can only be accessed through club memberships or paid guide services.

Catalina Island (of all places) has very promising deer hunting, but it's managed by the Catalina Conservancy in conjunction with the DFG…at the mere cost of $2000 for two deer, not including license/tag fees. A three day "hunt", with a mandatory guide, will run you $3500.

So I learned pretty early that my socioeconomic status and location meant I'd have to content myself with stalking meager deer populations in public forests with a bow and I'd just have to accept a low success rate. And this ongoing drought isn't going to make this season any easier. At least the archery only season/tag opens earlier, stays open longer, frees you from the difficult to mitigate non-lead ammo restrictions, and gives you access to more zones.

"How boring to look for cheapest, best value gear and so on. I want the best. Priority is key.

And no, I'm not rich by any means.

And I don't buy many things in general. I like to own as little as possible, but always good stuff. Stuff that lasts, stuff that does the job really good. I often wait a long time so I can put money a side for that one really great item"

+1

> I often wait a long time so I can put money a side for that one really great item

I find that if I wait long enough the fashion or craze dies down and goes away.
Then I can happily go back to using what I want to use.

Cheers

I truly enjoy reading all the tid bits of information shared amongst all with the same passion on this forum. I have always been a camper since I was young and have tried every variety of camping there is in Washington from too easy to regrettable. I found that the last place to advance in my evolution of life and being out in nature beyond the human networks, was how to still do all that I have learned but with less.

I knew that when I paid for a subscription here on bpl forum, it would be like all other forums with it's varieties of personalities, opinions, obsolete tangents and wealth gaps from my own situation. Joining to me is more of an opportunity to stand in a room full of college professors and mad scientists of woodsmarts. From these great minds I discovered and formed my personal conclusion of lightweight lifestyle(I threw away or ate half my stuff) along with my past bushcraftish camping(without the big knife) it came just in time for a new chapter in my life which has me in a new house nearly every week or sleeping out at work.

This got me thinking about how camping overall is gentrified. Before there was a civilization where everyone had motored vehicles, when cities were still vastly outnumbered by wilderness, with plenty of clean water and game, there was not a lot of recreational camping. Car companies like Ford embraced camping as we know it today to be a status enhancing sales point. Back when camping was something required to do as a human, faced with a journey, supply hike, hunt, migration or in a pinch over the course of multiple days. The more we removed ourselves from the daily elements that nature provides and into modern convenience dwellings, the more obvious it appears that the traditions of generations past had for surviving and thriving in their region are not so common place. If it weren't for boy/girl scouts, wilderness interaction would rely solely on the parents who may not have experienced it for themselves either. Mix it up with some capitalism to invent products that feed on a fear of incompetence, fixed up with some plastic inventions, you've got REI.

Sorry to kick this can along some more, I don't understand why BPL is not thriving as it seem to in the past. Is the "getrified" product conversations overwhelming newcomers (I've only started reading gear threads lately after reading nearly every MYOG)? Has everything worth inventing been invented? Have large backpacking companies enveloped "lightweight" on their products to were people now think that's as good as it gets? I don't know, but I'm sure if you guys did something like embrace large knives as a front, you could reeducate and convert a larger diversity of people who bring to the table their own valuable experiences. Or even better yet, get this website's name renown for selling a variety of quality BPL grown cottage industry goods to get the site back on the map!

"I find that if I wait long enough the fashion or craze dies down and goes away.
Then I can happily go back to using what I want to use"

What Southern California do you others live in? You can't even go car camping in the national forests anymore without having to stay up all night listening to conjunto music. And the only people I've ever seen out hunting are the same ones I've seen car camping.

My dri-ducks rain jacket got a lot of holes hiking on my trails and then shredded to pieces one day when I thought I could wear it on my motorcycle.

Gear is sometimes a proxy for not being out there. All this working every day crap just gets in the way of living so we buy things and dream instead.

First pack was surplus military, canvas, and heavy. First bought pack was from Thrifty Drugs. You could hear the frame creak as you walked. First "good" pack was a Coleman with a plastic frame. Now buried under tons of wash rock.
First hi dollar pack was a Gregory. Carried a lot of weight comfortably. Never really happy with it.
Getting older. Down to my last couple of packs. In a pinch, I wouldn't hesitate to use my old Thrifty pack, but I don't have to. I put a good bit of research into the equipment I have. I spend more than I can afford and take cuts elsewhere. I don't think our cottage guys are making tons of money. Sometimes my questions alone take up lots of time, and then they are not guaranteed a sale.

I have been on BPL almost as long as Brett and and things have changed. BPL hasn’t been gentrified, the lightweight gear market has matured. BPL is a niche group in the backpacking universe.

Gentrified implies that a community has been replaced by another social-economic group with a higher average income. BPL isn’t a social-economic group. It is an eclectic collection of diverse people with an interest in lightweight backpacking gear and techniques. We have Baby Boomers (some retired), working professionals, young college people, young working adults just starting out, and a scattering of many other folks. It is the diverse collection of people as it was in 2008.

When I joined BOL in 2008 there were many pieces of gear and brands that were popular and used by many. I know, because I did a lot of research back then. I’d like to share what I saw many people using, and what might be the shinny new state of the market.

SLEEPING
Nunatak quilts, Western Mountaineering sleeping bags (an old company with a long history), and Montbell “hugger” bags were poplar. Today there are more companies in the market with quilts at a lower price point; such as EE, Katabatic, and zPacks. The older brands are still around, but the new players have gained BPL market share with less expensive products. Today higher fill power down is more readily available.

Gossamer Gear foam sleeping pads and self-inflating insulating torso length pads were dominant. The foam pads are still around, but the uber-lite and higher R-value NeoAir pads have the highest market share. NeoAir pads are an advancement, a maturing of the sleeping pad.

PACKS
GoLite Jams, Gossamer Gear G5s and Murmurs, ULA Conduits and Catalysts, and a sprinkling of offerings from MLD and SMD were the norm. GoLite is gone, Gossamer Gear and ULA have a large share with HEAVIER and more feature rich products. New competitors have entered the market with Cuben Tech products: HMG and zPacks are pumping out incredibly light products at a much higher price point. Cuben drives that price.

SHELTERS
Silnylon ruled. SMD and MLD were the big players with flat and shaped tarps, Tarptents with single wall tents. Those are still big players. As with packs, Cuben has entered into the mix offered by SMD and MLD with incredibly light shelters, and Tarptents has refined their products with better designs and more double wall options. HMG, zPacks, and others now exist in the market place with Cuben shelters.

CLOTHING
This hasn’t changed much. Patagonia down sweaters, Houdini windshirts, and R1 Hoodies were most common.Today Montbell seems to be more popular for down jackets, and I see many other less expensive options for fleece and windshirts. All other clothing has been mostly status quo.

STOVES
Snow Peak GigaPower coupled with a Snow Peak Solo Cook Kit or a MSR Titan Kettle was popular, as were the Caldera Cone products. Today I am seeing a lot of cheaper and lighter canister stoves, more expensive and lighter titanium Caldera Cone systems, and the heavier and more efficient Jet Boil integrated products.

WATER
Recycled water bottles and Platys are still the mainstay. CLO2 is also still popular for purification. I have never used a filter, but the light Sawyer Squeeze seems to have replaced the heavier options I read about.

ELECTRONICS
This stuff has infiltrated gear lists. I am mostly critical of these gadgets, but they have infiltrated the general population too. The poorest segment of our society in the Western world have smart phones and MP3 players.

MORE OPTIONS
This maturing of gear is good. We have more options to choose from, most of which are lighter. I am older than Brett and am slower and not as strong as I once was. The availability of many lighter pieces of equipment allows me to continue doing the same kind of hikes I did 50 years ago. This is Backpacking Light, and most of us are looking to lighten our gear.

Great post Nick. I'll add two more thoughts. First, skiing has gone the same lighten-up way. with lighter plastic boots and high tech carbon/kevlar skis. Second is a more general observation – the top or one of the top marketing emphasis is weight. Even mainline manufacturers like TNF and Coleman tout lighter weight products now. This has been really noticeable at the Outdoor Retailer shows. In the ten years or so that I've been attending I've seen "lightweight" evolve from a curiosity corner with a few (then) cottage manufacturers to something now featured on every aisle. I agree with you that this is a good thing – more choices for us all.

Richard, I haven't skied since 1973. Bindings were potential ankle breakers and skis were long and heavy. Plus it got too expensive to ski in California, not to mention too crowded. Most of my skiing was in Colorado in the late 60's and early 70's where Monarch, Loveland Basin, and Keystone weren't crowded.

Reading many of the posts and articles here on BPL has renewed my interest in cross country skiing, which I have never done versus my winter travel with snowshoes. The gear advances being the driving force. Right now backpacking and camping fill up most of my leisure time, but when I retire next year I am probably going to get back into skiing and might try packrafting.

All is driven by advances in materials and design, where old farts like me can do these kinds of activities. I did give up rollerblading a couple years ago when a couple seriously dislocated fingers never healed properly.

"Gentrified implies that a community has been replaced by another social-economic group with a higher average income. BPL isn’t a social-economic group. It is an eclectic collection of diverse people with an interest in lightweight backpacking gear and techniques. We have Baby Boomers (some retired), working professionals, young college people, young working adults just starting out, and a scattering of many other folks. It is the diverse collection of people as it was in 2008. "

That's a good point. Backpacking was already exclusive to the wealthy at the beginning of the 20th century. Ever looked up the gear-lists of Kephart? They weren't cheap. Most of them were expensive. Consider Nessmuk, most of his stuff were custom-made by highly-esteemed professions. Both men relied heavily on expensive imported products.

Then we have to take into account how well-off folks like John Muir, Teddy Roosevelt and Charles Sheldon were. Backpacking only really became widely adopted by Americans after the Second World War when the middle-class widened and boomed.

I think too many people have the mountain men fantasies, but if one really read up on the history of the mountain men, those men travelled in groups with horses or canoes or relied on extensive network of wilderness cabins. Solo-backpacking was basically unheard of until about somewhere between 1880s and 1920s.

I don't know if we can say backpacking exclusive to the wealthy. When I started most of my gear was purchased at swap meets and Army-Navy surplus stores. I grew up in an area at the bottom of the social-economic ladder and backpacking just wasn't of interest to most there, however there were many other recreational activities that meet people's needs.

Over the years I have seen many, many poor people backpacking, especially if the area is close to where they live. The Southern Sierra above Bakersfield would be an example of folks doing weekend trips. Yes, maybe most cannot take 3 weeks off and hike the JMT, but there are places where those with little money can and do backpack — however, it may not be a popular outdoor activity in their community back home.

I would venture to guess I camp more than most people here on BPL – over 1,000 nights in the past 12 years or so. We often camp in cheap Federal campgrounds or "boondock" in areas where camping is free. Yes, we see $500k motor homes, but we also often see "poor" people camping – cheap big tents, small mattresses from home, household blankets and pillows. Often large families who are cooking over campfires with big pots and pans from home. These "poor" folks seem to have much more fun than the RV crowd, and their kids are are often much better behaved than the spoiled affluent brats. These "poor" people have a much richer experience.

Some times, since the big fire a couple years ago, in summer we camp at a county campground in the San Jacintos where it is cool versus back home in the desert, and it is only 45 miles from our house. Some our favorite dispersed and "secret" camping sites in the area have been closed since the fire. It is common to see many people from the agricultural communities near where we live at this campground. Many are farm workers or are engaged minimum wage jobs. They tend to congregate in one section of the park close to the restrooms and the smaller campsites — many families in contiguous campsites. Joyce and I camp at the back of the park where there usually are few people and quieter. On a typical trip we walk our dog a couple times a day and walk all the roads in the gampground, which has about 150 campsites. The "poor" folks in the crowded section are normally very courteous and are having an absolutely great time camping.

a lot of younger people backpack. taking time off before working/family. summers off when going to school.

not a lot of money to buy expensive gear.

today and 50 years ago

Well, yes, we have a lot to thank labour unions for. During Teddy Roosevelt's time, there were no such thing as the weekends. People didn't get paid over-time. Not to mention we have a lot to thank FDR for as well.

But I still wouldn't consider BPL gentrified considering the history of backpacking, especially when it comes to long-distance backpacking or wilderness backpacking. The upper-class is not pushing the mainstream out of backpacking by making it more expensive; they are cutting jobs, lowering salaries (with the help of free-trade agreements) and forcing people to work longer hours.

If anything, backpacking gears have become more accessible. With the exception of mature goose down (understandably given they can only be harvested once or twice a year) and cuben fiber, the prices of everything else has gone down over the years. But goose down was expensive back then, and it's still expensive now. Only immature down became more affordable over the years thanks to consumer demand.

And cuben? For a long time, the backpacking community held silnylon as the pinnacle of tent fabric. The cost of cuben will only go down when the corporation controlling the supply is willing to let the price drop.

We now have some of the world's lightest canister stoves that can be easily be ordered from Korea or China for little as $12. It's now entirely possible to go to a local hiking or hunting store and buy a backpack, sleeping bag and tent which fit into the "343" rule (3 items for 3 kilograms) at an affordable price.

So, I wouldn't call it gentrification the true sense of the word. It came from the time period when the British nobles bought out the tenant farmers in northern England and Scotland or forced them out with enclosure of the commons which displaced a lot of people and drove them to the industrial cities or emigrate to other countries. The current mainstream usage of the word implies that living in the city is becoming more expensive because the upper-class are renovating the downtown core with condos and commutable high-end jobs and driving out the lower classes.

I don't really see that with backpacking. If anything, backpacking became more accessible over the century, and the biggest problem is the weakening of the middle class and lower class in the work-force which means they lose their purchasing power.

A good example of a hobby being gentrified would be hunting or pedigreed dog breeding because of land access or property laws. Backpacking doesn't really fit into that trend.

But beyond the whole REI thing I have been thinking for the last few weeks about where this site has been going the last 8 years I have been on.

My wife last year bought a Toyota Corolla.
It's a white one, just like about 50% of all cars on the road here , yes they are all white Toyota Corollas.
Never noticed that before she bought this one.

The point is that once we start to focus on something, that is all we take note of.

So, for example, it is obvious from the REI thread that many have the impression that every time you post, Brett, it is a negative comment (mind you the black flag does not help)
Now, I don't know but it is very possible that most of your posts are not.

Anyway you have noticed the gentrification of BPL.
So did you not notice how 8 years ago BPL had a "shop" selling $150 merino/possum jumpers or similarly priced synthetic pants and jackets ?
What about those very light but not so cheap quilts?
Come to think of it, between Ti stakes,Dyneema cords, Ti Pots and clothing , it was all pretty much high end AND expensive stuff.
Did you miss that ?

I'm not even sure what "gentrification" means, as the OP used it. Commercialism? Affluence? Elitism? Linen suits and mint juleps?

Are people willing to spend money on what they love? Yes, clearly. But there is also a VERY robust myog forum, here! To each their own.

There is clearly a common progression among hikers- I think Mike Clelland had a cartoon about it, once. First, when you're poor you have cheap stuff and look like a dirtbag. As time progresses you collect nicer stuff and walk around with shiny cuben and titanium and such. And then eventually you realize that you don't need any of that and actually prefer using your skillset and are carrying almost nothing and looking like a dirtbag again. For instance, I'm just using a cat can stove nowadays. I use a mid, but I'll probably never own a cuben one even though I could afford it. I have old threadbare fleece. I use base layers that the Army issued to me. Etc. I have now got my style well dialed-in, and I would be vigorously jettisoning my old gear on gear swap except that I often loan it out.

I do believe the adage that if you buy quality gear you only cry once, however. MLD has my enduring respect. I have toyed with the notion of ordering a custom McHale pack-for-life, but can't bring myself to spend that much. Maybe some Christmas…

Frankly, if you're an "elite-level" hiker (and most on this forum eventually qualify) then it isn't unreasonable to have elite-level gear.

Frankly, if you're an "elite-level" hiker (and most on this forum eventually qualify) then it isn't unreasonable to have elite-level gear.

BPL is the "elite" now again?

To be blunt if we are truly the "elite" we wouldnt be arguing over senseless things on da intrawebz like "rei returns" or "yuppification"

We would be out there doing it rain, snow or shine

And we would probably be sponsored by all these "gentrified" companies anyways

As to gear its fairly irrelevant if the gear is expensive or not … The question is … is it well used and worn

If its a closet queen that youre just swapping out on gear swap when the next marginally lighter or "better" piece comes around then you know

That said theres many a good young climber here thats climbs very hard on old used gear. … They spend why little money they have on the actual climbing trips

And theres many a "social" climber with shiny new or barely used gear who cant climb their way out of a paper bag

;)

Heres a recent interesting article from the perspective of business and some "elite" level climbers

http://www.managementtoday.co.uk/news/1340295/peak-profits-business-rock-climbing/

More at link

For now, though, the real cash in the outdoor industry is elsewhere. 'The money is in fleeces and Gore-Tex jackets for people walking their dogs at the weekend,' says professional climber Neil Gresham

Climbers living a nomadic existence searching for their next slab of virgin rock mostly can't – or won't – spare the cash for a flash new jacket. 'The big companies are not advertising to people like me, because I live on a major budget – like £8,000 a year,' says Cook, who gets free clothing from British brand Rab, which is also likely to sponsor his upcoming expedition to the vividly named Polar Sun Spire on Canada's Baffen Island. 'It's a different culture where adventure and experience are valued much higher than money and security.'

;)

Didya note the scare-quotes, there, Eric? :) I think that I equivocated adequately- "most" and "eventually", etc. Maybe I should have specified "regulars" or something- my bad. I'm all for self-flagellation, but this forum does attract people who do awesome things. There are awesome people on Whiteblaze, too, for course, but also a lot of clueless doodz. We have relatively few doodz around here, though they do pop up now and then- our doodz ratio is low. Are you proposing that if we're not Andy Skurka that we cannot claim to be experts? I'll argue with you if that's so. There is simply never going to be a sponsorship market for hikers the way there is for climbers or skiers, etc. And all forums contain light banter as well as serious discussion, so I don't think that the "REI Returns" threads are a good criticism, either. Frankly, I'd avoid a forum that lacked a sense of humor. I think most people here are serious hikers. Many of us ARE out hiking all the time. I'll admit that I'm not- mostly due to career choices- but I'm nonetheless pretty damned capable.

Dean …

Thers absolutely and utterly no way that most BPLers are the "elite"

There one or two exception like skurka who if you noticed doesnt post much here anymore

And several BPLers can probably qualify is pretty knowledgeable and experienced

But i am not the "elite", neither are you … Nor most of the folks here that are having tooo much fun on this thread

The "elite" are out there as i type … Climbing first ascents, setting trail records, or pushing into the wild unknown

Not arguing senselessly from the comfort of their iPad and their couch

They are actually doing it … Not just yapping about it

;)

This kind of threads come up periodically and then sometimes get heated.

Over the years I have seen so many people willing to help out new backpackers, often spending considerable time referencing links to information. I also see members giving gear items to people who are just starting out; new hikers who didn't ask for the gear help.

I also see folks spending time to put together a route with detailed information when someone asks for input on an area they have never been to and are planning on doing a hike there.

BPL is a good place to visit and participate. We throw out titles all the time; UL, SUL, XUL, Elite, neebie, etc. It doesn't mean a lot. What is important, in my opinion, is that this is a unique community. That is what BPL really is.

Well said! Bravo.

From what I'm hearing here, Patagonia might be wise to start selling jackets pre-stained with chili and beer down the front, duct tape on the elbows. It's obviously a look with great cultural currency. Maybe they should start a Hardman Buyback Program. Real pants with dirt and pee pee stains from actual Hardmen that don't care about anything you care about. Maybe an MLD/SMD/ULA Hiker Trash Buyback Program; used, smelly packs and shelters from real through hikers with really cool trail names. Apparently you don't have to feel guilty about cuben fiber if it's all messed up looking.

In Roman times the sweat of gladiators was bottled and sold as an aphrodisiac.

Maybe I'm on to something.

But dammit, then people like Alex Honnold go and confuse things….What do we do when the Hardmen are clean shaven, doe-eyed boys soloing walls in tucked in, button down shirts and khaki shorts?

For God's sake, the kid looks like a golf caddy.

Now I don't know if I should go buy a new shirt or rub some dirt on the ones I already have.