Gentrified?

[Brett Peugh]

But beyond the whole REI thing I have been thinking for the last few weeks about where this site has been going the last 8 years I have been on.

Maybe it always like that but it seems like it is going more and more into expensive gear snobbery and I will admit I was part of that sometimes also. I will never pay what zpacks and other manufacturers want not because his stuff might not be good but because it seems way out of whack with what the average person can afford. I liked the article today because it brought things down to a level where most people could afford it. Because if you can afford a $300 light down jacket and a $125 stove that will burn at any altitude to use on a hobby, you are doing pretty well in this America. Me, I am using a poncho/tarp, a DriDucks jacket and R2 that was on super sale and just other things you can find a thrift store or discounted used. My pack was an old school pack that someone gave me, no name on it but it has a big mesh pocket on the outside. I do lightweight but my filled pack still weighs less than 10# and costs less than $200. I don’t know but to me it a lot of the discussion are seeming to become gentrified. Not everyone is going to go up a mountain or hike the fjords of Norway. Some of us just like to go backpacking, lightly. Go ahead, flame away.

[Matt V]

I was actually thinking about this today. My company is offering unpaid time off as a way for them to save money, and it got me thinking the less I spend on backpacking gear, the more I can go backpacking!

Prices seem to have gone up in the past few years, and I guess the market can support it. High end manufacturers like Arcteryx have always priced their stuff high, but it seems like everyone else has raised prices to match! Of course I haven't been paying attention for that long, so it could be that my perspective/standards have changed. It would be interesting to use Archive.org to go back and look at price trends over the years. Personally I think the price of a lot of outdoor gear is too high for the amount of "stuff" in it. Some of the sleeping bags I've looked at are around $600 or more, but for the same price you could buy a basic mountain bike or road bike, which takes a lot more complex manufacturing. Of course there are also plenty of bikes over $5000 at the high end, and I think those are over priced since they are not that inherently different than less expensive bikes. I guess down must be expensive, but it's hard to believe that there could be $600 worth of "stuff' in a 2lb sleeping bag.

Part of what you are paying for is the knowledge that went into making a product, such as how it fits, how it's constructed, engineering for the materials/fabrics, etc.

There's always a Make Your Own Gear forum if you don't like this section. It looks like down goes for about $150 a pound. More than I expected, but not unreasonable. http://wildernesslogics.com/850-White-Goose-Down-850-Down.htm

Another place to buy it for about the same price is from Feathered Friends when bedding is on sale. It even comes in nice cotton bags! http://featheredfriends.com/pillow-goose-down-soft-850-c.html

[Owen McMurrey]

I've got a touch of gear whore, but the way I look at it, my gear is free.
Well, I pay for it by taking overtime shifts on an almost embarrassingly easy job, so at least it feels like it's free.
But, yeah. If I had to go back to the stuff I was using a few years ago before I *unnecessarily* replaced everything, it wouldn't hurt my feelings too much, or affect when or where I get out.

On the other hand, I'm certainly not ashamed of having some pretty nice stuff. Matter of fact, my most expensive gear pieces also happen to be my favorites, and the only reason I don't keep spending(more, anyway) is that I don't really want anything else.

Sure, sometimes the gear is a hobby unto itself rather than a means to an end that justifies itself through use, but that's cool, too. Who cares what someone else spends their money on? I can't justify(or hardly believe!) the price of some things, but that doesn't mean someone shouldn't have it, or talk about it here.
After all, this IS the gear forum…

[Eric Blumensaadt]

"Use it up, wear it out, make it do, do without."

On second thought I love that "New Gear Smell"!

BTW, I sold Bret my carefully used Tarptent Moment single wall tent so I know he sticks to a budget but still manages to get quality gear.

[Matt Dirksen]

People are, and always have, been interested in:

"The Best" or "The lightest", or "The Strongest", or "The most Advanced", and so on.

Clearly when dealing with going places where we might die in not properly prepared, that mindset a reasonable starting point toward trying to find the right gear, albeit a deceptive one.

Of course with that mindset comes all the emotional baggage associated with capturing "The Best" of something…. And quite possibly the snobbery as well.

The act of aquiring "awesome" gear can be a seductive process… :)

As I constantly remind myself, the "Best" that one can get, is usually inexpensive and doesn't weigh anything: the mental preparation that goes inside my brain, before I go somewhere unfamiliar or do something new.

[Bob Moulder]

Plenty of threads about $300 (or, as you have done, less!) gear "challenges".

If I was dirt poor — as I was just after getting out of the USAF and going back to school on the GI Bill, living in a roach-infested shoebox and working 2 part-time jobs — I'd still (and did) find a way to cobble together a kit and go backpacking and canoeing. Never will forget a trip in August, 1981 with my AF buddy Gerry when we drove my '74 Corolla (1.2 liter, with no 3rd gear) up to Shining Rock Wilderness in NC. We had fun with some very cheap gear. It was heavy but we were young.

Just getting into UL a little over a year ago, I went on a bit of a shopping spree and bought a zpacks Arc Blast and a Duplex. Good stuff and spendy, yes, but no way around that because nobody else sells those things, and I could afford them because I spent 30 years working toward a gummint pension and stuffing a 401k. After using them more than the average person, I've gotta say it was money very well spent and I thank myself every time I use them. That is the real test. If all I could afford was a polycryo tarp, I'd find a way to be happy with that as well.

But I feel the same way when I use the Frogg Togg jacket and the Starlyte stove because I also get a kick out of using stuff that's fugly and/or cheap, and yet works surprisingly well. However, I also have an eVent Packa (not expensive, but not cheap, either) and am actually looking forward to a monsoon so I can give it a thorough workout, and the fact that it looks like military surplus is icing on the cake. Lots of serviceable stuff at WalMart, Costco (remember those trekking poles?) and at the large sporting goods chains.

Bottom line is, if you go through life begrudging those who can afford better stuff you're going to waste an awful lot of time.

[William Chilton]

To some extent, it depends on priorities. I have some pricey gear where I feel it has been worth it, and cheaper gear where not (i.e. I don't hike in rain much, so a high end raincoat hasn't been a priority). And then, we don't own a car, which has saved us a lot more money than the hiking gear has cost.
As for current costs compared to the past, in the late 70s/early 80s my tent cost close to £100, my pack over £50 and my boots about £50. That's much more than my current gear in real terms.

[Ian]

"Because if you can afford a $300 light down jacket and a $125 stove that will burn at any altitude to use on a hobby, you are doing pretty well in this America."

Um, no.

"Don't tell me where your priorities are. Show me where you spend your money and I'll tell you what they are." – James W. Frick (whoever that is)

Minimum wage in Washington is $9.47 per hour. For the sake of this discussion, let's say that this is what I earn per hour and my goal is to have a relatively luxurious kit that will run me:

* $450 shelter
* $200 backpack
* $300 sleeping bag
* $100 mack daddy cook kit
* $130 sleeping pad
* $500 everything else

Total $1680 / $9.47 = 177 hours of labor / 52 weeks per year = 3.41 hrs per week which works out to $32.30 per week or $4.61 per day which is approximately the cost of a latte and tip. All this is assuming that I buy new and make zero effort to find the best deal out there.

This has nothing to do with snobbery and everything to do with making adult decisions and negligible sacrifices (I try to limit my coffee shack purchases to one visit per week) to buy the things I want to do the things I enjoy.

Could I do it with a $300 kit? Sure. I've done it with less.

I don't need a $450 Zpacks tent but it's a great piece of gear and I don't regret buying it. It was a priority for me and I made adult decisions and sacrifices amortized over a couple years to buy it.

"I don’t know but to me it a lot of the discussion are seeming to become gentrified."

Duly noted.

.

"Go ahead, flame away."

You've said nothing here worthy of the energy. The allegation is silly, at best, and I'll leave it at that.

[Matthew / BPL]

My car has two large dents in it but my backpack has a ZPacks Duplex stashed inside. I pack my lunch rather than going out to a restaurant. I'm far from wealthy but I scrimp in other areas so that I can enjoy lightweight, high quality gear when I'm backpacking.

[Ken Thompson]

Buying quality gear only stings once.

[HkNewman]

There's "spendy", but the $$$ is usually about the same at REI or another big box anyways for something that has an extra pound or 2. May as well get gear from a cottage craft operation if you can wait. About the only thing big box have (for me) are discount wise are shoes, gizmos (- headlamps, canisters), and base layer sales anymore. There's always good stuff on gear swap or DIY (maybe start off with a Ray-Way kit). Speaking of gentrification, however, hope everyone has told their estates executers to sell their stuff on GS (to the yard sale crowd, this cuben fiber stuff looks like it should be draped over a wood pile).

[Greg Mihalik]

drift …

"… however, hope everyone has told their estates executers to sell their stuff on GS …"

Non-trival to a non-UL executor unless you have a priced photo-inventory. But still a PITA for the uninitiated.

An alternative is to have the executor send a big box to someone here on the forums for sale/distribution. Post in "Gear Swap" – Executor Needed, Details Below.

… end drift.

[Monte Masterson]

There's alot of truth to what you say Brett, but I think it all boils down to priorities and how deep someone's pockets are.

I'm as cheap as it gets, yet when it comes to UL gear, I spare no expense. I'm not a rich guy either. I AM middle aged though and summit hiking is my passion. I can justify expensive cuben shelters, the finest WM bags, high quality UL clothing, etc for safety reasons alone. Traversing steep elevations on rugged trails, a heavy pack is just plain dangerous. You also have to keep in mind how much less stress is put on the joints with lighter loads.

Still I think if someone wants to go light they can easily buy quality gear for cheap. All they have to do is be patient and look for deals. Sierra Trading Post and Gearswap for starters. Black Friday is hard to beat. Don't forget Craigslist and the 20% off that Campsaver and Backcountry offers on a regular basis…and some of their clearance deals are practically giveaways!

Lightweight backpacks from Gossamer Gear, Six Moon Designs and Osprey are great, and are all reasonably priced. Yea Brett, I think the cuben packs may fit your assertions more than any other piece of gear. The cuben packs aren't much lighter than nylon, but they're way more expensive and have been shown to lack durability.

I think if you can afford the best UL gear, why not? If you're on a budget, don't be a fool, be patient, and you can put together a nice setup without spending alot of money.

[Paul Magnanti]

Personally, I am more worried about the aristocratization.. :O

http://www.theonion.com/article/report-nations-gentrified-neighborhoods-threatened-2419

(Note it is from The Onion folks.. ;) )

[Michael Gunderloy]

I've been richer than I am now, and way poorer. Right now I can afford to buy good gear, which increases my enjoyment, which gets me out in the woods more. That fits my current priorities at 55 with stable flexible employment.

It also puts way too much gear on my shelves, so I end up giving the last generation of stuff away to deserving Scouts or handing it down to my own kids.

But I'd still be hiking even if all I could afford was a wool blanket bedroll…in fact I have a wool blanket just waiting to be put into use on that front for this fall ;)

[Brett Peugh]

That is pretty good. I actually know that area of Wicker Park. Decent, cheap apartments and local shops. A real community feel also. 7 years later almost all of those shops were gone and chain stores, restaraunts and bars moved in. Rents tripled. Nifty.

[Andy Anderson]

Overall lightweight backpacking is a relatively inexpensive hobby. My kit has some of the best lightweight gear you can buy, cuben fiber included. Fully loaded, it cost me less than $1,500. When I use my gear, its for 24-72 hours at a time. My kit will last many years if I treat it well. If you break down the cost per hour, it's a lot cheaper than most hobbies. If you go on a few weekend trips per year, your cost/hour easily gets down to the low single digits. Compared to some of my other hobbies, the cost of this hobby is almost negligible.

[bruce czopek]

I spent some good money on a Northface VE 24 tent in 1990. Also bought a Northface Chamois 5 degree bag at the same time.

It was a chunk of change then. But I still use both of them. The VE 24 is a killer car camping tent and the Chamois is used likewise. In fact last year I sent the Chamois bag to Northface to clean and do a minor repair. That cost a whopping $30 and they refilled the bag to specs for free. Like getting a brand new bag for almost nothing.

Definitely got my moneys worth out of a pricey first investment.

For my packing trips it is a combo of spending some quality money on the tent, bag and pack, to get the weight down and after that looking for well priced serviceable equipment that won't break the bank.

[Andrew U]

I personally don't see anything wrong with gentrification on this website, whether it exists or not. I like seeing reviews and discussions on the very best gear because hiking and trail running are what I am most passionate about.

I can then make the decision of what to do with my money.

For instance, after reading many reviews I decided that an MLD SoloMid was the best fit for my needs. But I bought the silnylon version to save some money.

I don't think any of us really need to read another review of a cat food alky stove or the merits of using a cheap trash bag as an inner pack liner.

[Gordon Gray]

If you can't afford the most lightest weight gear but really want it, just work out a little more. With the additional muscle, the old school Kelty everlast, cost effective packs will no longer be heavy for YOU.

Couple extra sets of lunges, squats, calf raises, and some core work will do it. EVERYONE can afford that.

[HkNewman]

Just go with sil-nylon as Andrew said, especially if younger.. There are also sales from the cottage makers usually on select gear, normally once the summer gear feeding frenzy is over.

[Katherine .]

If only i could put the same energy and attention to my household budget that I give to my gear spreadsheet!

Yeah, there are spendy items. But the lightweight mindset also brings out a certain discipline that can apply to dollars as was a ounces. After considering function, I'll sometimes calculate "how much does an ounce of savings cost"? (I think my going rate is about $20 for -1oz).

I've been pleased by some of my more frugal purchases. (dri ducks, hadron). Also, having super high standards can also, counter-intuitively, lead me to spend less. (There is no truly WPB jacket, so screw it, I'll just get a dri ducks while we wait…)

And thank goodness I didn't have an unlimited gear budget, because I'd have all sorts of crap that isn't quite right for me if I did (and I'm not good about selling). Budget restraints slow me down, force me to be more thoughtful.

"How cheap is my kit" can be as fun as "how light is it."

[James holden]

outdoor clothing is the new fashion … and those "fashionable" clothes may well carry a premium …

thats all there is to it …

;)

[Russell Lawson]

I've always considered that notion as a conclusion to this website. While it is a vast vault of information on diy projects, that is only a quarter of whats going on here, and not overly active too. I really wish I were contributing here during it's hay day.

So I used to be a professional paintballer of all things, and noticed in that hobby there is a large percentage of buy-in people who get all the fancy gear and can afford to show up every week. While backpacking is not a silly game like paintball it still holds that gear mentality were you might not feel qualified to play if you arn't using a extra better breathable coat or a 13ball per second marker.

Let me say though in both hobby examples the best, most aspiring users that I know got into it for their passion and to push their skill, knowledge and endurance to a higher lever for no one else but themselves. I personally could never afford paintball nor any backpack gear (except $8 external frame, 2nds fabric and an orange houdini half off), so I reffed every other weekend, and co-taught arobic kickboxing to women as my training and finances, plus learned how to get sponsors and free to cheap plane rides to fuel my passion. That is what seperated myself from my friends who all have 10 guns and still play, chasing the dream.

Some of the best backpackers I know carry 30 to 60 pounds of gear, not because they don't know any better but because they train for their jobs as trail workers or mountaineering tour guides or even carrying gear for a youth rehab nature hikes. What Bpl has provided to me to share with my small group of outdoorsy 20somethings is a vast amount of tricks to redefine what gear can be if made from scratch and how us working joes can afford convenience while in the woods.

I feel that the strict limited views represented here on bpl are why it is not a growing movement. There is to much stigma about weight and the simplest solution is buy this this and that for someone that is just now finding the site. I do read and enjoy the bushcraftusa site but don't really use any of their methods. Great group of people and the thankyou bar is encouraging. I'm still waiting for a hybrid of the two that highlights their best qualities and involes coordinates to all fabric manufacturing dumpsters.

hyoh

[Valerie E]

Another point that should be made about pricey gear is the effect of amortization.

If you're thru-hiking for 4-5 months, and you've spent $3k on equipment, it works out to $20-$25 per day. (And much of it will still be serviceable after the hike, further reducing its per-use cost.)

OTOH, if you've spent $3k and you only backpack 5 nights, well… that's quite expensive, but that brings us back to Ian's point that adults get to decide how they spend their money (assuming that they are not taking that money from others).

[Author]

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