Gear weight vs safety and preparedness

Thanks Kat.

"And before I get the angry posts that no such thing happens here…yes it does."

I have personally done this, but I didn't take into account what I was doing at the time … that what I saw as fun and meaningless internet banter might be something else to someone else. This thread and the reactions to it have actually helped open my eyes to some things I had failed to recognize in the past.

I appreciate the clarity.

Bravo, Kat! I think you expressed the subtleties of the situation very well.

Not everyone has the thickest skin, and once someone starts getting upset, maybe folks need to be a little nicer here in the playground. What does it cost you, really?

Attack me for this if you feel the need. I generally try to be encouraging, and I'm happy to listen to others' differing opinions. As I said in some of my earlier posts in this thread, things are relative: what works for you may not work for me.

First, I'll point out that the people who are most ready to admonish others to "get a thicker skin" are usually the abrasive pricks. Usually. I hate it when people try to use that phrase and it immediately colors my perception of those who use it in a very negative fashion. Turn the mirror on yourselves.

But I really didn't see that here. I saw this thread subject and thought it would be an interesting read, but then I saw all of those deleted posts and sort of knew that it had gone astray.

Nonetheless I read through it. All of it. And I have to say that I saw nothing remotely critical of Heath until the bottom of page two. In fact EVERYTHING I saw was very supportive of him; people told him he was doing well, and almost all even told him not to obsess about pack weight! Kat gave a few pointers to shed some weight. That's about it. (And if he took Kat's post as an attack that's definitely his issue, not hers, because it wasn't.) Whatever he was saying, others were certainly civil, polite, and helpful.

Until Edward criticized him on his rhetorical style, and Health's VERY NEXT response was to take his ball and go home. Due to one post. After two pages of love and support.

Well, as I said, juvenile. I'm forced to suspect that Edward gave him exactly what he was looking for: the slightest shred of conflict. And, of course, pouting about Roger and his other (few remaining) comments just, well, sort of *smell* like the adoption of victimhood that so many trolls engage in.

And speaking as someone who has spent *twenty* years in the service of his country, protecting rights, etc., etc., I don't find his post about his service, TBI, PTSD, etc. very moving. At least, not in regards this thread. It's an utter non sequitur, laudable though his service may have been. If his syndrome includes anger issues, yes, I'm willing to cut the guy some slack. But we don't even know that. Plus- and this is important- when such patients have anger issues it is important to point it out to them when they succumb to them. Getting angry back is pointless and counterproductive, yes, but they need to know that they are falling down. And if he hadn't deleted his posts I might be able to form an opinion on that, but unfortunately that is not the case.

But, heck, this is the interwebs so I'll give a guy the benefit of the doubt:

So, Heath- from what little I can see of this conversation you may have lost it a bit, brother. Take a breath, have a Coke and a smile, and come sign out in a better manner. I went through some of your prior posts, and it looks like you've always been a polite and level-headed guy until now.

Dean – Looks like you were a bit late to the party. Your view does not appear to take into account the substance of Heath's deleted posts. Heath asked a question and got a number of appropriate responses, including my first one. Heath took those responses and criticized both the BPL members who had responded in good faith and, more generally, the UL/SUL community for what he thought were dangerous and irresponsibly low base weights. My post on the second page was a response to, and an explanation for, the kind of replies he was getting. You can call it criticism if you want. If you missed Heath's posts, then you are simply not in a good position to judge where the thread went.

Later, Heath does call the BPL members who replied to him "pedantic @ssholes." His responses to well meaning members were out of proportion. All of the replies I see are appropriate responses to his posts. I have a thick skin, which comes from a job where I deal with "abrasive pricks" on a daily basis. Neither of my posts here were remotely to close to that standard. When confronted with an emotional or intellectual bully, I will respond with respectful argument, explaination and disagreement, but I won't get walked on or back down. Look at all of the posts he deleted, then look at the posts he has left up on page 3 and page 4. Seriously? I echo Dale's sentiments, that Heath clearly has some issues related to his service to our Nation. I wish him the best, but I have nothing to apologize for, nor does anyone else who posted here.

Well, since OP is gone and this thread is headless… I too have changed my post to "N". Fun if everyone does the same? :)

N?

Is Nothing sacred?

–B.G.–

I came to this thread hoping to read a good thread on topic- gear weight vs. safety and preparedness. I was bummed to see so many posts deleted right at the start- especially the OP- because that makes it really hard to follow the thread. Not sure why people do that but wish once people have responded to a post that the post couldn't be deleted. It ruins the readability of the thread otherwise.

I have been on forums that lock in your post a few hours after you post it.

Also, when I used to post to a rock climbing forum, certain folks were in the habit of deleting their posts so we would use the Quote function to save it from being deleted.

oh well.. moving onward.

No thanks. That's just dumb. I'll leave it as is. Still good info in this thread. Why waste it?

No one but Heath did anything wrong here. I have it bookmarked as a great example of a thread gone wrong.

Stephen M. Good post, the very best. I was almost going to pm Stephen as to not help keep this thread alive. Stephen M. that guy has got class. There has been sometimes on here that I've jumped on the wagon that was running people over, I might have even been driving the wagon. Maybe the person even kinda had it coming but looking back I really wished I'd been more like Stephan. To anyone that I may have offended in the past I'm sorry.

–

Oh, we rely on the NSA for our backups. They copy everything.

Cheers

Roger – Mandatory data retention is just around the corner — if not here already. :)

I don't see much that could have been done to avoid this. As adults, I believe it's appropriate to call others on BS if we see it and or speak frankly when necessary, as some have done. I expect to be called out on my BS should I display it.

I don't see any over the top bullying or any responses to Heath that were inappropriate. For the most part the responses were pretty awesome … high five.

That being said, I'm going to chalk Heath's reaction up to Heath's admitted brain injury…. I'm assuming there are numerous ways this could affect one's behavior and actions. Unfortunately in this case, it resulted in what appears to be Heath's honest misinterpretation of responses that were intended to be helpful as being attacks on him and a reaction that was not appropriate in the given context of this thread. It's unfortunate he reacted this way, but given the circumstances, him leaving the forums may be best for him.

How many more are going to paraphrase one another here ? Unless you are adding something new you are just one more rubbing it in. How much fun can that be really.

Exactly how many BPLers are going to keep saying the same thing over and over again? You keep opening old wounds instead of adding to the conversation. How enjoyable can this possibly be?

(Katharina throws a boot at my head in 3, 2, thump!)

"As far as deleting posts, who's paying who here? Is it BPL paying me, or is it me paying BPL?
Please copy it, or take a snapshot because it's going to be gone in 4,3,2,-.
Just my thought since I'm not being payed. I leave it up long enough for those that are in the discussion can see it then it's gone.
I would rather meet the people face to face (in a good way) like at a GGG(G). That's where you really see how nice these people are.
:)"

I dunno. At the GGG, we actually talked about some of the ongoing threads on BPL. Sad I know. Several people mentioned that it really bothered them when people deleted their responses, something I do every now and then. I'll still edit for grammar and spelling as I feel is necessary but for the most part, I'm trying to avoid deleting my comments. I suspect I won't be able to do this 100% but that's generally what I'm going to do.

As far as my rights as a paying member goes, well I don't disagree with you necessarily on the customer/service provider relationship here, but there are other paying members to think about as well. I'm not here to blow sunshine and be all sugary sweet with some of the prickly pears here but I'm also not trying to ruin the experience for others either.

I get more value out of the forums than the articles, although some of them have been helpful too. Often times the value of the forums is the imperfect search function where we can find existing data/experiences on widget X or technique Y. If we all just deleted our comments just for the hell of it, well that wouldn't be good.

Edit to add: I've lost my cool here before and deleted comments typed in anger so none of this is directed at the OP.

Aaannnd… did you read my whole post, Ed? Because I think you have your hackles up. I wasn't being critical of you. The most pointed thing that I hinted at about you was that you might have been the victim of a troll. My post was critical of Heath, to what little extent it could be when he deleted all of his posts. Which was sort of my point. Next issue:

Huh. I'm getting the impression that some people (SI?) eventually delete almost everything that they post out of some sort of principle. I've never heard of that. What's the thought process, there? I mean, if you're posting something contentious, but aren't willing to let it stand… don't post it. Or am I misunderstanding?

Deleting comments typed in anger I understand. (Guilty!) So I guess that if that's what Heath was doing then so be it, but I don't get the impression that it was, from all of the rest of you all.

"How many more are going to paraphrase one another here ? Unless you are adding something new you are just one more rubbing it in. How much fun can that be really."

Katharina, you seemed to have wanted to sympathize with Heath throughout. Whatever your views about the broader atmosphere in BPL, you do realize that none of that's remotely relevant to this thread, right? Nobody "piled on" here. There was a sensible, balanced conversation (the first 2 pages) – many people weren't even directly addressing Heath, just adding their views on the topic he raised. Of course, from page three, there's snark, and pointing and laughing – prompted by his bizarre flounce and deletions.

I thought it was fairly restrained and good-humored, in general, given that he was acting like a complete dick and being quite offensive to a couple of specific people for no reason whatsoever.

If someone has lost insight into the appropriateness of their own behavior, I don't think it benefits them to patronize them and offer tea and sympathy. Better to call it out for what it is. If you stand in the market square and make a fool of yourself, people are going to point and laugh, and then gossip about it. But we'll all move on, and forget about it in no time. I hope he's back before long, and back to normal – we all have bad days.

"Katharina, you seemed to have wanted to sympathize with Heath throughout. Whatever your views about the broader atmosphere in BPL, you do realize that none of that's remotely relevant to this thread, right?"

A couple of posts ago I admitted to maybe jumping in too quickly , partly because the thread reminded me of others where pileups happened. So there is that reality.
Beyond that, there have been at least 10 posts that have said the same thing, that Heath is at fault, that no one else did anything wrong, that he has mental issues, that he is either better off out of here/ maybe he will come back better. How many more people are going to write that exact same thing again, and again, and again, every time mentioning his fault, his mental status etc? When is enough enough? What if he is still reading? Do you think he will in any way benefit by reading more and more people pat one another on the back that they are right and he needed to be called on his stuff?

Sometimes I feel like posting something and then I wait because chances are someone else will say what I would, except better. I don't always feel the need to express something , particularly if hurtful to someone, when everyone else is already doing it. What is the point? What new and insightful thing has been said here lately? Nothing by me, true enough…

Edited. @Ian. You have actually demonstrated compassion even toward someone that attacked you personally, once everyone else piled on.
You have been quite sharp at times, as have others, but seems like you pull out when too many people jump in. I respect that about you.

I was really enjoying the subject of the thread for the first two pages….. but went away for a bit and came back….sorry to see the thread going south. I've always been interested in gear carried vs safety and how people learn to cope with what they have.
As far as Heath goes, I didn't see any of his responses past page two, but I've dealt with a lot of veterans, mostly because my father is one, but he has minimal post trauma syndromes despite having five Purple Hearts and a silver star and a dislike of fireworks explosions……a little compassion on our parts as the beneficiaries of those that served costs not a penny and goes a long way. You can have a thick skin, but remember, everyone has a heart.

I don't disagree with you, Katharina, it's certainly getting repetitive. But why are you bothered by that? Your worry seems to be that Heath's feelings might be hurt. I don't think that's an appropriate concern. Heath's own (deleted) behavior that triggered all this was far more vitriolic and offensive than any of the responses. If Heath's still reading this, then good – because I think it carries the correct message: if you behave like a dick, people are not going to respond favorably. And if you cause a trainwreck, there will likely be 10 pages of subsequent gossip, because that's human nature.

There's no contradiction between being forthright and being compassionate. Compassionate, in this context – at the risk of repeating myself (!) – Heath, you had a bad day, it happens to the best of us sometimes, take a break and don't worry about it; everyone will forget about this in a couple of weeks and welcome you back. But that's the extent of it. He's not a victim.

We needed the debriefing. It got weird rather fast. So it takes a few pages of post-mortem posts and reflection.

[OK, I'll stop now!]

Hey Ralph, here's an idea: bring a laptop and your insights down to the local veterans hall. Tell them, "yeah, there's this vet with post traumatic syndrome and some other related issues who posted on bpl. A real jerk, but we set him straight. Let me show you!" and then bring up this thread. I'd really like to be there for that. Boot–not trail runner–on the other foot.

"Heath's still reading this, then good – because I think it carries the correct message: if you behave like a dick, people are not going to respond favorably. And if you cause a trainwreck, there will likely be 10 pages of subsequent gossip, because that's human nature."

That is apparently the nature of many humans. Once someone is cornered or down or seems desperate, my own nature is to back off. I don't really care if you believe my "concerns to be inappropriate".

I'll bet if the truth be known, Heath is a good man. He just suffers from what so many of us men suffer from…PRIDE!

Heath, come on back to BPL. You only live about 30 miles from me, and if you want to go do Ash Creek Trail (toughest hike in AZ, 6000' elevation gain in 8 miles) I'm sure I can convince you to shed half of your pack weight (real fast)!