Gear weight vs safety and preparedness

At best,the relationship between the weight of the gear carried and safety is indirect. What counts is your knowledge and skills. If you know what you are doing, and the conditions you will face, you will carry appropriate gear and deal capably with situations. Weight should be an important factor is your decisions, but not the only factor.

One of our victims was encountered, steadily going hypothermic in a cold drizzle,with an unopened 50lb pack at his feet. "It's too wet to build a fire," he said. Well, it wasn't…

I could go on and on. The party that erected their tents, slept outside, and got their bags soaked in a snowstorm, eventually abandoning one of their group by the side of the trail. At least his corpse was easy to find…..

First aid. Training trumps gear every time. A trained responder with no kit will be more effective than an untrained person with a ton of stuff. Recognition and rough diagnosis are critical, and no gear can do that for you.

As always, things are so relative… As a young, fit person, Heath can comfortably carry a lot more pack weight than an older, less fit person.

Sure, with a lighter tent/pack you can cut quite a bit of weight without leaving a single safety item at home. (Your wallet will also be a lot lighter after you buy that gear, LOL!) With the new gear, your base weight will be about 12lbs, which is really pretty light, considering that you're hiking in higher elevations, with enough knowledge/skills to use the safety items that you bring.

Some people are just more cautious and proactive than others — and there's nothing wrong with being one of those! Also, people have different levels of comfort. If you get cold easily, you need to bring a warmer sleep system; others may sleep warm, or may not mind waking up cold all night long. Again, I think folks get way too hung up on the "numbers game" of pack weight. If you're comfortable carrying a 16lb base weight – great! OTOH, if you have a 16lb pack weight and you're NOT comfortable… then it's time to reevaluate.

Those intended purchases/replacements will get you down to 11-14 lbs., which seems pretty reasonable to me, and is about my comfort zone too.

Maybe as I go out more with less and less I'll learn more about what isn't essential in adverse conditions. Or maybe I'll just stay around 12-13 lbs.

FAK is something where the weight might increase w/skill and training — I follow the logic of only bringing what I know how to use. (and I should probably take a refresher wilderness first aid class).

For 2015 I'm planning some purchases that will shave some weight (e.g. replacement puffy) and others that will add a bit (e.g. PLB). I'll also be refining my FAK/footcare/emergency/repair stuff. That could go either way, but not by much. My most debatable item is probably the mylar emergency blanket. I don't yet bring a mirror, cause I don't really know what to do with it, though vanity may get the better of me on that one!

Could I ever do a SUL type trip? Maybe a one-nighter with a great forecast, and with a lot more experience under my belt.

My thought process is to think about conditions in terms of the probability that I'll encounter them.

– 85% chance: I pack so I'm comfortable in these conditions
– 10% chance: I pack so I'll be safe and mobile, but not necessarily comfortable.
– 5% chance: I pack so I can survive. This might involve hunkering down and building a fire or even a shelter.

A lot of the extra safe-but-not-comfortable planning involve multi-use gear. I can wear my jacket to bed, or wrap my quilt around me if my jacket isn't enough in camp.

Another example: often here in SoCal rain is only a distant possibility, so I don't bring a rain jacket or a tarp. In those cases I bring an emergency blanket that I can rig up as a poncho or tarp in a worst case scenario. It won't keep me comfortable, but it'll keep me safe.

when you pack minimal gear just for the "expected" conditions … youre taking a risk, no bones about it

now whether you have the fitness, skills and level head to get through that risk if things go south … thats only something that will be decided between nature and yourself, not on some intraweb forums

now there is lighter gear that doesnt substantially increase the risk … for example a modern good shaped tarp is probably as functionally safe as something that weights 2-3 times as much that you buy at REI … and a UL pack, while perhaps not as durable as a bomer one, generally wont increase the risk either for that specific instance

but when yr cutting actual insulation, food, and shelter (coverage, not weight), etc … theres a real risk, anyone who denies it will get caught sooner or later

theres a misunderstanding in terms "fast and light" … many folks think it means you can go cut things to the bone and still be as "bomber" as with your "normal" gear … this is absolutely and utterly false

in fact mark twight devotes and entire section in "extreme alpinism"on saying that if you go fast and light you have to be ready and able to get out of dodge and not hunker down … he gives fatal accidents where folks didnt do this

the recent deaths where folks died in the Himalayan trek this year where they didnt have the gear to survive an unexpected blizzard show this all too well

the flip side is that if you have the gear its useless if you dont know how to use it …

everyone wants to go "fast and light" … but not everyone has the skills or mindset to turn around survive if things go wrong

heres a recent story …

He also blamed the group for "attempting to climb the mountain without safety measures." "They did not have sufficient equipment for climbing and were rather like a bunch of picnickers. We mobilized for them but they should have been more careful," he said.

İbrahim Bedir, another climber, said he started seeing hallucinations towards the morning. "I was hearing voices. I thought I saw people coming to rescue us," he said. Bedir said they thought about descending by themselves but were too scared. "Visibility was low and there could have been cliffs on our way," he said.

more at link …

http://www.dailysabah.com/nation/2015/02/09/19-climbers-rescued-after-15-hours-of-ordeal

Like you, my weekend weight with consumables is about 16lb and I've never felt under prepared.

I wouldn't change a thing except monitor for creeping weight or shave opportunity ounces.

That being said, I have been exposed/surprised by weather situations here in the PNW such as a blizzard and biblical downpours that I know for a fact would've been grim times in an open tarp, particularly a "small" one.

While I might use one in Summer, I would draw the line for any time after Sept.

"I totally agree on tarps. I think they are great for folks that like them. I don't have the patience for them but there are relatively freestanding structures with roughly the same weight so I am looking at one of those most likely a tarp tent or mid."

Heath, that's exactly where I'm at these days! I'm planning a 500 mile thru hike this summer, and after last summer's JMT, I know that I want an easy setup at the end of a long hiking day. Watching those Tarptent setup videos has convinced me that an extra 16oz is a good trade-off for me (YMMV) — one pole, 2 stakes, and I'm done? Sign me up! (Even the mids have at least 6 stakes and a bunch of fiddly lines…)

It's all about personal style and preferences. For some, minimalism is a moral choice, and privation is just the sort of character test that they crave. That's fine (hope they never get truly tested), but it's not my thing. I want a balance between safety, comfort, simplicity, and portability, and all my gear "tinkering" is an effort to get the best possible balance. I hope you find your very own "perfect balance" soon! :^)

"Watching those Tarptent setup videos has convinced me that an extra 16oz is a good trade-off for me (YMMV) — one pole, 2 stakes, and I'm done? Sign me up! (Even the miss have at least 6 stakes and a bunch of fiddly lines…)"

mid is just 4 stakes 1 pole for quick set up. You add more and upper guy lines if in high winds or snow. I wouldn't trust just 2 stakes in wind for any shelter. Maybe if they were trees ;^).

SAR often bring floor less mids as they can be set up OVER the victim without moving them.

"Sometimes you never know what the conditions are going to be."

You can know the range of possibilities. When I'm planning for the 10% and 5% categories, I don't base my expectations on the forecast, I base it on the season and location. There are scenarios that you can reasonably eliminate. If it's July in the Sierras, I'm not going to plan for snow. And in the summer, spring, and fall in the San Gabriels, SUL is totally achievable and safe even in record-setting weather extremes.

On the other hand, if it's January in the high-elevation San Gabriels, I'm going to make sure I'll be safe (if not comfortable) in a snowstorm even when there's no precipitation in the forecast.

First, I think the idea of defining "UL" by absolute base weight is unhelpful. UL is better defined functionally. Sure, in the Sierras in August, if you're not under 10lb you're not much of an ultralighter. But if you're not willing to adjust your equipment according to the conditions, you're not an ultralighter, you're just an idiot. You don't cease to be an ultralighter in winter just because you have to carry more gear. If you're heading out into high mountains in January with a deteriorating forecast, ultralight might mean a base weight of 25lb.

Ultralight should not mean a fixed weight target. It's a general philosophy. It means that you are willing to forego the 5-10X overengineering that makes traditional products heavy. it means that you're creative in finding multi-use products, and that you're willing to trade some degree of camp comfort for improved trail comfort. It does NOT necessarily mean that you're less safe. You maintain your safety margin (and your camp comfort) by improving your skills. You have the will and knowledge to improvise, and you carry suitable repair materials and know how to use them. As your experience grows, you're better able to anticipate what's essential for safety, and what's optional.

Most important, the critics of "unsafe" or "underequipped" ultralighters often ignore the fact that low weight OF ITSELF can improve your safety substantially. Is it safer to cross a raging spring torrent with a 50lb pack or a 25lb pack? How about in the desert – if your base weight is 5lb lower, you can carry 5lb more water. In winter, maybe you can carry an extra 5000 calories in case you get snowed in. Most important, if you're physically well conditioned and carrying a light pack you can move fast. You're over the pass and down to safe terrain before the afternoon thunderstorm hits. If the weather conditions deteriorate badly, you can evacuate yourself in half the time.

Location and familiarity with the location can also help. Also familiarity with your own needs for food and water.

ie.. i don't eat as much the first few days i'm out. so i don't pack a ton of lunch or dinner food. So for a weekend trip my food weight might look very low. I also don't drink a ton of water so carrying 1L is the norm unless there is more than 8mi to the next source.

trained in advanced first aid, evaluation and treatment of athletic injuries so my FAK is quite minimal since there is only so much you can do and what you can make do with other things. mine is mostly foot and wound care.

my summer base is around 12lb with quite a few things many here consider luxury.. tarp tent style tent, neo air, canister stove etc. i usually have a layer of some type to add to my sleep system over the expected temps but it is used for something during the day too to be useful no matter what.

like Ralph says.. getting lighter is a mindset and you have to be at a place that is sufficient and not over packed. getting to that place is where the discussions come in. In a manageable setting you can push the limits of sufficient to find the line. Sometimes it turns into some Type II fun bumping over that line into a chilly night or thirsty few miles but good info to know.

Katherine, a small mirror from a makeup compact can be an extremely powerful signaling device in daylight. You reflect the sun towards the plane/helicopter/boat/hikers you are trying to signal. Aim it by holding the mirror under under one eye and holding the other hand at arms length with two fingers up in a V like a gun sight. Sight the target between your fingers and maneuver the mirror until you see the reflected sunlight hitting between your fingers.

One of the ways I got my 3-season base weight under 10 lbs. was by getting a Winter Wren Nano sleeping bag from Feathered Friends, which has two small zippers at the shoulders and a draw-string foot box. You open the zippers and foot box to put your arms and legs out to wear it like a full length hooded vest, and leave the puffy at home. For 4-season trips the puffy comes along too. The Rock Wren is lighter, but I prefer the added comfort and safety of a bag rated to 25* F.

Another was to switch to an alcohol/esbit cook kit that weighs 4 oz for 900 ml beer can pot, stove, ti windscreen, 12 oz fuel bottle, cozy and spoon.

I have also found that a 9 gram 1 gallon ziploc storage bag works well as a pillow. I've used them for years and never had one deflate, though I still bring an extra just in case.

And I still carry a full length NeoAir XTherm Max 25" x 72", a 48 sq. ft. floorless tarp/tent, a "full" first aid kit, 4 ways to start a fire (mini bic, storm matches, "firestarter" matches and steel w/ striker) with three types of tinder (vaseline-soaked cotton balls, Coghlan's emergency parafin tinder, and oilwood chips), extra clothing layer, head lamp with extra batteries, compass, signal mirror, whistle. I am totally not into sacrificing safety or comfort. I have posted my "Comfortable & Safe 3-Season UL Gear List" in case anyone is interested:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?bo=watch&forum_thread_id=100039

For 4-season trips I bring the puffy, ski gloves, a layer of thick long underwear, and swap out the tarp tent for a Black Diamond Firstlight tent. Base weight is still under 15 lbs.

Ralph, thanks for discussing how UL gives potential speed to avoid weather, exposed passes or to self-evacuate further. I was thinking that, too.

Obviously there is a trade-off between gear and skills. If you can start a roaring bonfire on a blizzard by rubbing two Boy Scouts together, you can leave your second Bic lighter at home.

But there is also a trade-off between UL and hell-or-high-water planning. With less gear in reserve, I'll bail sooner than I would otherwise. If I want to or have to commit to an itinerary, I go a little heavier than if a 5 day trip can become a 3 day trip in bad weather.

The classic Ten Essentials don't have to weigh much. Insulation and rain gear are a must, but all the other safety/survival goodies don't come to a pound. Some gear choices depend on how tough and Spartan you are, like the thickness of your sleeping pad. Water is heavy and the decision on how much to carry is imporant.

Put your complete gear list with weights up for evaluation and see where it goes.

My mirror is one of the disks off an old hard drive.. it weighs a few grams and is really shiny.

Speed is definitely a component..there is great advantage to being able to go faster if the need arises. on the Long Trail i ran flat out for 2mi in the pouring rain to get to a shelter. no way I could have done that with a traditional sized pack.

http://www.geargrams.com/list?id=9466

as ralph says being lighter means you can be more mobile, often getting out of situations faster .. so lighter CAN be "safer"

but theres a huge caveat to that …

you need to be able to move, thus not injured or trapped by conditions

over and over again youll see reports of folks who have broken an ankle or similar injury … once that happens unless you are very tough (wo)man who can drag themselves out, you really have no choice but to hunker down and wait for a rescue

now those SAR folks do the best they can, but you need to be able to survive the night no matter the conditions … and possibly longer

also conditions can change so fast that you have no choice but to hunker down … while having a bit more insulation, a bit more food, etc might not save you … NOT having it definately wont help you if yr stuck

heres a few quotes from that blizzard in nepal that killed scores of hikers last year

The Annapurna circuit has a reputation as an easy “entry-level” trek and many of those who attempt it have little or no experience of high mountains. Most of those caught on Thorong La appear to have been young tourists with limited cold weather gear.

“This is the most easy trek, the most touristy one. We didn’t have much equipment, and we just dropped our bags and kept going through the storm,” said Maya, who suffered frostbite.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/16/nepal-blizzard-survivor-deaths-annapurna-refuge

Even for someone in good shape, humping it over the pass is a big day, with most opting to start their hike well before dawn. On well-established routes like this, trekkers will typically send their overnight gear with porters, who go ahead of the group, walk fast, and arrive early at the next night’s lodge. Trekkers generally carry only food and water for the day plus a few extra layers and rain gear.

For casual trekkers who thought they were heading to Nepal during the dry season, all of this would have presented itself very quickly with only bad options to choose from. Hunkering down near the top of the pass and waiting out the storm would have created a severe risk of hypothermia and altitude sickness. Descending is the best option, but only if you know where you’re going. Given the weather and visibility, many of the dead likely wandered off the trail or descended blindly and got lost, bogged down, and exhausted by drifting snow and froze to death that way.

http://www.outsideonline.com/adventure-travel/asia/nepal/Why-Did-So-Many-People-Die-in-Nepal.html

now no one is advocating you bring the kitchen sink … but if yr pushing the limit of weights and sacrificing insulation, food, shelter,etc … you need to be aware that yr taking a real risk if you cant move

remember UL gear can allow you to have a bit "more safety" in that you can actually carrying MORE for less weight than before …

or it can allow you to push the limits of your expected conditions to meet some goal … or some arbitrary number

whichever way you do it is your choice, just be realistic about the risk

I can hike in safety and comfort in the Pacific Northwest, between June and September, with a base weight of 7 pounds. I can safely and comfortably hike in the Pacific Northwest in September-October with a base weight of 8 pounds. While I have some experience, there are plenty of hikers here with more. But I do not confuse comfort with luxury or confuse my fears with real risks. Look at the risks rationally. You are far more likely to die on the road to the trailhead. Or in a household accident. Once I was preparing for a hike and was loading my pack into the trunk of my car that was parked on my street. It was a rough neighborhood. A drug related drive-by shooting happened at the end of my block. One of the shooters turned, looked at me, and shot at me twice. I could hear the rounds go by.

That post shooting hike was much more safe. I carried a shelter and sleep system that could handle the worst seasonal weather. It included a comfy air mattress because I don't like sleeping on a CCF. No one really does if they are being honest with themselves. I had cloths that kept me warm and dry. A hydration system that kept me from getting sick and kept me hydrated. A redundant navigation system that kept me from getting lost. A safety plan left behind with my wife in case something went wrong in the backcountry. Enough food and hooch to keep me fed and happy. Nothing that would cope with a zombie apocalypse or a mid-summer polar vortex, or a coffee press, but if a bear messed with me it would have gotten a face full of bear spray. That pre-hike shooting taught me the real, random deadly risk was in frontcountry of my block, in my quotidian daily life, and not the backcountry at all. The lessons were obvious; we moved and I kept on hiking. Understand and manage the real risks, keep lightning your load as you go and learn, and look out on the way to the trailhead, or your drive to work, which is where the real dangers are.

the low-hanging fruit looks like kitchen/hydration stuff:

why the Nalgenes?
that's a lot of water capacity in total. Maybe some trips, but surely not all?
18 oz seems like a lot for a cooking set up. Are you open to alcohol?

"I carry the 2 liter evernew water pouches(empty again) for cooking and drinking in camp to provide everyone with water. If it's just me. I don't bring them."

That's really easy weight savings then: don't count them. (given the general assumption that base weight = solo base weight)

"I have (1) of the thinner walled Nalgene bottles that is empty during the day. I boil water in it and throw it in my sleeping bag at night."

Always? Year-round? If so when you get a quilt, consider the weight of a lower temp rating vs. the weight the Nalgene. If it's only for cold, again maybe this is a calculation/classification thing — don't compare others' summer base weights to your winter base weight.

So you have an achievable goal with the new tent and Quilt that will get you to 12ish and that is pretty decent without losing much comfort.

People can always post their really low best case scenario lists that you get perfect weather for a weekend and you can skip gear you likely won't need. Also, some areas just have the predictable weather for it. your area doesn't seem to be like that so your list will be different.

Last 4 days of my LT hike I left my tent and rain pants at a friends house. I knew I would be in shelters and the weather forecast was good. so for 4 days I was at probably 10 lb base

I really don't agree that a base weight below 10 pounds is dangerous territory. My normal base weight is about 8 pounds. It includes good rain gear, enough insulation, reliable shelter, several comfort items, and plenty of food and water. I would not equate base weight to safety. Most of the gear you carry that is heavier than mine has no increase in safety.

Looking at your gear, several things can easily be cut in half, weight-wise. Many things can be cut very cheaply.

Splitting hairs by saving 6 ounces is the best way to cut weight. If cutting 6 ounces doesn't seem like enough to bother with, then you are not likely to reduce your weight very much more. Cutting the little items can add up really quickly and cheaply.

The use of a tarp, alcohol stove, and lighter bottles are great ways to cut your pack weight, and will not significantly, if at all, affect your safety.

Sorry to get you off track, Heath. Sounds like you're looking for a balance between being light and being prepared. I was just trying to point out some examples where you can be both lighter and still adequately prepared. If that's what you're looking for, I think its important to post your gear list here so people can give more meaningful responses. Regardless, good luck in your search.

Heath – you wrote:

"I said I read gear lists and I see what people bring for a FAK, insulation and shelter that would in my 22 years of hiking not be sufficient in a true emergency or in severe weather protect them from the environment. I think people are hoping/praying/counting on things to be perfect and if not they may be ok but it'll be a real suckfest at best. I think the UL/SUL mindset turns in to some kind of game or competition to see how light one can go and I think if things go south that'll put you in a place you don't want to be."

and,

"I never said I had any desire to cut my base weight other than the 3 things I mentioned; pack, shelter, sleeping bag. I said I was comfortable where I was at. I was reticent to post my gear list as people would just pick it apart and say well mine is better than yours, etc… which is not why I started this thread."

Making the above arguments and NOT posting your gear list is like a scientist making a factual claim and not posting his research. "I am reluctant to show the research that explains how my cold fusion reactor works." You accuse UL/SUL hikers with light base weights of playing games and competing for the lightest weight, but are reluctant to show your kit and explain and defend why you think it is safe and our kits are not? Then act surprised and put upon when you have to defend that position at "Backpackinglight.Com" of all places?! Maybe if you posted over at BackpackerMagazine.Com those comments would slide.

The UL/SUL mind set is not a game or competition for most BPL Members. It is an intentional mind set and philosophy grounded in experience. You can hike for 22 years, or 50 years, with a heavy load as long as your body and mind is willing to do that. You can carry a FAK or any other gear that you hope will cope with the end of days. I just choose not to. Things can always go South in ways we can't imagine or prepare for, no matter how much we carry. I look at the risks, rely on commonsense, planning and experience, the right equipment, and feel that I can handle what comes my way. I don't expect I am screwed by an injury or bad weather anymore then if I carried 10 more pounds of kit.

I looked over your question again. All of the responses posted have been fair answers to your question. Much of your original post is statements and arguments, not questions. Perhaps it was meant as a rhetorical question, but that is hard to tell given the context. The only actual question, and by that I mean one made by linking the second to last sentence with a the last, one work sentence that ends with a question mark is, "I am struggling to find a balance between light and prepared. Thoughts?" You got some great answers, but that doesn't mean you need to like them.

Heath, I'm sorry you feel that way. But look at it from our perspective: you basically came in and told us that we're doing it wrong (i.e. unprepared) if we have a base weight under 10 pounds. To those of us who regularly hike with base weights under 10 pounds, that sounded like an accusation of recklessness, so I think a few of us got defensive.

I do understand your reticence to post your gear list, so when I get home (I'm typing this on my iPhone) I'll post my UL gear list. I'd love for you to look over it and let me know what survival items I'm missing.

I mean that as a genuine invitation, not a challenge. It sounds like you have a lot more cold weather and survival experience than I do.